As we tend to shy away from the person and works of the Spirit, as think we tend to be afraid of going off and becoming charasmatic, and that we neglect the Father top focus mainly on jesus, but didn't Jesus Himself say that we need to go to the father, and God the father is addressed a lot in Apostles books, especially Paul!
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Do We baptist neglect BOTH the Father and the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Bronconagurski
New Member
Some people see God the Father as some cold, cruel entity that is ready to take a hammer of something and whack us with it. They see Jesus as making intercession and keeping God the Father from judging us, and do not see him as Abba, Father. They do not understand that it pleased God the Father to bruise His own Son for us. Some don't even realize they should pray to the Father in Jesus' name, not pray to Jesus. Some don't realize when we don't know how to pray, the Holy Spirit knows how to present our prayers to the Father. I grew up when Baptists were afraid of charasmatics, so you are right about the Holy Spirit being neglected. Dr. Elmer Towns from Liberty U. wrote a book on the names of the Holy Spirit and it was a hit because no books were out there. I started a thread on the indwelling and filling of the Spirit, and how the Spirit worked in the OT saints and it has been ignored like the plague for the most part. Truth is, a lot of us, and I include myself, don't know enough about how God the Holy Spirit functions in our day to day life.
The truth is that God the Father sent His own Son to die, and Jesus gave Himself a ransom, and the Holy Spirit convicted us of those facts, and that implored us to repent and be saved. Now the Holy Spirit works in our lives as Christians and can be grieved or quenched. Do we really understand what that means? Good thread, brother, and much needed.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
:thumbsup:
I'm trying to remember if I saw your thread. Can you point it out to me?
Atah Yehudi?
Shalom alechiem, khaveri.
The full answer to this query is to delve into intense Trinitarian theology. The simple answer would be the headline over the full answer:
The Bible is mostly about Jesus, who suffered the most in the Godhead.
To get to the full answer we must go into the scriptures about God.
John 5:39-40 (NIV)
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
He did not say they are about the Father or the Holy Spirit or even God but about him (me).
The fact of the matter is, we attribute much in the Old Testament to the Father that was actually Jesus Christ preincarnate. The Father was there (1 John 1:2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) from the beginning. But the preincarnate Jesus was the primary individual in the triune Godhead dealing with creation and humanity.
For example, Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things in the beginning...
John 1:1-3 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Colossians 1:16 (NIV)
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Isaiah 44:24 (NIV)
24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
1. The Father and the Holy Spirit are not Redeemers. Only Jesus paid the price to redeem us.
2. The Father and the Spirit were present (in company) with God the Word at the creation but did not participate in the creation of all things created in the beginning.
3. Taking responsibility for his creation is why he (God the Word) wasd the one in the Godhead who became the Son and the sin offering / sacrifice for sin.
4. The Father's only creation is the body of the Son.
John 1:14 (NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Other translations say the only begotten of the Father.
Hebrews 10:5 clarifies that this refers to the body of Jesus who preexisted the incarnation.
And that this Father - Son relationship did not exist until the Father created the body of the Son and the Word became the Son... Hebrews 1:5 (not be SHALL BE a Son and WILL BE his Father). Putting asunder the eternal son doctrine, btw.
John 5:39-40 (NIV)
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
He did not say they are about the Father or the Holy Spirit or even God but about him (me).
The fact of the matter is, we attribute much in the Old Testament to the Father that was actually Jesus Christ preincarnate. The Father was there (1 John 1:2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) from the beginning. But the preincarnate Jesus was the primary individual in the triune Godhead dealing with creation and humanity.
For example, Jesus (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things in the beginning...
John 1:1-3 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Colossians 1:16 (NIV)
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Isaiah 44:24 (NIV)
24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
1. The Father and the Holy Spirit are not Redeemers. Only Jesus paid the price to redeem us.
2. The Father and the Spirit were present (in company) with God the Word at the creation but did not participate in the creation of all things created in the beginning.
3. Taking responsibility for his creation is why he (God the Word) wasd the one in the Godhead who became the Son and the sin offering / sacrifice for sin.
4. The Father's only creation is the body of the Son.
John 1:14 (NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Other translations say the only begotten of the Father.
Hebrews 10:5 clarifies that this refers to the body of Jesus who preexisted the incarnation.
And that this Father - Son relationship did not exist until the Father created the body of the Son and the Word became the Son... Hebrews 1:5 (not be SHALL BE a Son and WILL BE his Father). Putting asunder the eternal son doctrine, btw.
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Anticipating a challenge to the interpretation that Jesus is the lone Creator...
Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
"he" God is often a reference to it God. God is triune but what trips up most in explaining the triune nature of God is that they tend to assign the Godhead ITself person-hood status. You would not do so with a family of three people. The family is an it not a he.
The nature of God is an it not a he. the triunity of God is an it not a he compound unity. But when we speak of God in totality we tend to assign person-hood "he" rather than it... or we are shy around the term "they" because we want not even a hint of polytheism to enter our monotheistic speech.
You have the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one.
Told you this was going to get deep into Trinitarian theology. :thumbs:
The closest model we have to this unity would be when Adam and Eve had their first child. The totality of humanity was three persons or individuals. There was one humanity one species of humans. One family. Three individuals. The family was an it not a he. The family / humanity was the one nature of the three individuals.
The other thing that throws off people who are trying to understand the Trinity is how at times one individual of the Godhead speaks for the whole Godhead as though it were one individual.
"I AM God there is no other. "
Art sometimes mimics reality. In Star Wars III when it was suggested that Palpatine's fate was going to be decided by the Senate he said "I AM THE SENATE!"
So the answer to Hebrews 1:1-2 is to put another example of life imitating truth.
The Trump family fortune was created through Donald Sr. It does not mean the family fortune was created by any other family member than Donald. And it does not take away from the nature of Donald Trump (as JW's etc. would suggest it does Jesus divine nature).
Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
"he" God is often a reference to it God. God is triune but what trips up most in explaining the triune nature of God is that they tend to assign the Godhead ITself person-hood status. You would not do so with a family of three people. The family is an it not a he.
The nature of God is an it not a he. the triunity of God is an it not a he compound unity. But when we speak of God in totality we tend to assign person-hood "he" rather than it... or we are shy around the term "they" because we want not even a hint of polytheism to enter our monotheistic speech.
You have the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one.
Told you this was going to get deep into Trinitarian theology. :thumbs:
The closest model we have to this unity would be when Adam and Eve had their first child. The totality of humanity was three persons or individuals. There was one humanity one species of humans. One family. Three individuals. The family was an it not a he. The family / humanity was the one nature of the three individuals.
The other thing that throws off people who are trying to understand the Trinity is how at times one individual of the Godhead speaks for the whole Godhead as though it were one individual.
"I AM God there is no other. "
Art sometimes mimics reality. In Star Wars III when it was suggested that Palpatine's fate was going to be decided by the Senate he said "I AM THE SENATE!"
So the answer to Hebrews 1:1-2 is to put another example of life imitating truth.
The Trump family fortune was created through Donald Sr. It does not mean the family fortune was created by any other family member than Donald. And it does not take away from the nature of Donald Trump (as JW's etc. would suggest it does Jesus divine nature).
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Jesus IS a Father. He is the Father of creation.
Luke 3:38 (NIV)
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Adam the son of God the Word. Not son of God the Father.
John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
God the Word Father of creation became a Son in the incarnation.
God the Father was not a Father until God the Word became the Son in the incarnation. Before that, God the Father was (for lack of another description) God the Authority.
The Holy Spirit is also a Father. He is the Father of revelation.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
He is the Father of the Bible. God the Author.
From the very beginning was:
God the Authority.
God the Word.
God the Author.
We look back through what they became since then and apply the names as in 1 John 1:2 "the Father" etc.
This also answers the age old challenge how Jesus could be called Everlasting Father....
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB95)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
He is the Father of Creation, but he is not God the father (who is Jesus' actual Father of his physicality). We are children of God the Father through adoption. But Jesus (the man) by direct creation. This is how and why he made the distinction between relationship to God the Father:
John 20:17 (NASB95)
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”
To my Father
and your (adopted Father)
To my God
and your (adopted God).
Romans 8:23 (NASB95)
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Romans 9:4 (NASB95)
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
Ephesians 1:5 (NASB95)
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Luke 3:38 (NIV)
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Adam the son of God the Word. Not son of God the Father.
John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
God the Word Father of creation became a Son in the incarnation.
God the Father was not a Father until God the Word became the Son in the incarnation. Before that, God the Father was (for lack of another description) God the Authority.
The Holy Spirit is also a Father. He is the Father of revelation.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
He is the Father of the Bible. God the Author.
From the very beginning was:
God the Authority.
God the Word.
God the Author.
We look back through what they became since then and apply the names as in 1 John 1:2 "the Father" etc.
This also answers the age old challenge how Jesus could be called Everlasting Father....
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB95)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
He is the Father of Creation, but he is not God the father (who is Jesus' actual Father of his physicality). We are children of God the Father through adoption. But Jesus (the man) by direct creation. This is how and why he made the distinction between relationship to God the Father:
John 20:17 (NASB95)
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”
To my Father
and your (adopted Father)
To my God
and your (adopted God).
Romans 8:23 (NASB95)
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Romans 9:4 (NASB95)
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
Ephesians 1:5 (NASB95)
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
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The Apostles, especially Paul, seemed to indicate that God the father was still the primary One of the trinity, for paul kept always adressing prayers to father, mentioned Him as father of jesus, and in the end, jesus will give all things back to Him, so God is "all in all"..
Just think that weas baptists, without intention, have to a great extent become almost like baptist "jesus only", as we seem to forget the Father and the Spirit!
I think you are mistaken. Paul wrote;
Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
Col 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
When we pray to Christ we are praying to the whole of God
MB
jesus answered prayer question, as to be to the father, in his name, and paul added to be in the power of the Spirit!
God the father still "Boss" among the trinity, as both jesus and Holy Spirit willingly subordinate to Him!
We are to address the father in our prayers, in the name of Jesus, by the Spirit...