A Smaller Church

[Revmitchell]

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Does that include Barrack Obama?

 

[DHK]

Does that include Barrack Obama?

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

This passage does, and to think that Paul wrote it when Nero--the very one who executed him--was in power!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

This passage does, and to think that Paul wrote it when Nero--the very one who executed him--was in power!

Then why does my country have the 2nd amendment...to get rid of despotic rulers.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Differentiate between a lie and sarcasm. I will differentiate it for you in your following statements.

I like clarity. The statement that "anyone can administer the Lord's Supper" has been made by many here, including you. You may not have said "the unsaved," and I know you don't believe it, but I have gone out of my way to show how ridiculous that statement is. It is such a broad statement with no restrictions that it makes no sense. Just who is "anyone"? Paul puts restrictions on those who can partake, much less those who can administer.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
--It is quite evident that not everyone can partake, let alone administer the Lord's Table.
--But you go on, post after post, and say "anyone can administer the Lord's Table."

I just demonstrated to you that not "any Christian" can even partake of the Lord's ordinances. Will you believe the Scriptures?
People died, were killed by the Lord in judgment because of such careless beliefs like yours:

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

This is a non sequitor and has nothing to do with the administration of the Lord's Supper. I keep telling you that. You have yet to explain yourself. It only demonstrates your ignorance of the priesthood of the believer and perhaps the other Baptist distinctives. Are you really a Baptist?

You don't know what the priesthood of the believer is. You don't understand Baptist distinctives are! And you rebuke me??

But you haven't used it in this thread.

Calling the kettle black are you?
You are calling me names, again! And then you refuse to use any Scripture to refute the Scripture that I do give you. It is classic Helwysism.

Prove your statement to be truthful. Post the URLs where you have used Scripture. Show me where you have given any rebuttal to the Scripture I have given you.
If you want I will repost the Scripture I have given you. But I doubt that you will do anything with it. You never do. I have posted Scripture in this post. It is doubtful that you will answer it.

One of the most important Baptist distinctives is that the two ordinances that the Lord gave (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper) are given to the local church. That being said, the pastor is the "overseer" of the local church and will be held accountable to God for how those ordinances are carried out in the local church.
That has been my position all along.

Your poll is flawed.

More ad hominem. The above is what people do when they cannot debate.
I challenge you to post the truth. At least concerning this thread without the personal attacks.

You have known all along what scripture I was referring to. I will not post it because I will not be baited by you. As I said before and anyone can read, if you or anyone doubts my ability to use scripture to back up what I say, I refer you to this post of mine: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1957479&postcount=8

You ask if I am a Baptist. I put the same question to you. It is very evident who holds the Baptist position on this issue. My poll bears that out, as well as scripture and history.

Seems to me you have not shed your Catholic past as completely as you believe.

I will not engage in further hurling matches with you, even though you initiate the insults. That is the way you operate, so you can play by yourself from now on. I am sorry you have such low opinion of me and such low regard for Baptist and scriptural principles, but I'm sure one of the prelatical denominations would welcome you with open arms.

 

[DHK]

You have known all along what scripture I was referring to. I will not post it because I will not be baited by you. As I said before and anyone can read, if you or anyone doubts my ability to use scripture to back up what I say, I refer you to this post of mine: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1957479&postcount=8

First of all anyone cannot see that you use Scripture because you haven't used any in this thread.
Secondly, not everyone reads every thread. If you had noticed I haven't posted in the thread you have referenced and really haven't read it. It has nothing to do with this one. Your point therefore is a red herring.

You ask if I am a Baptist. I put the same question to you. It is very evident who holds the Baptist position on this issue. My poll bears that out, as well as scripture and history.

No it doesn't. If one were to read just this thread, they would probably come to the conclusion that you were of the brethren faith or possibly had been highly influenced by Watchman Nee, who in his later years developed some heretical views

Seems to me you have not shed your Catholic past as completely as you believe.

You obviously don't read carefully what I post and don't know what I believe to this day.

I will not engage in further hurling matches with you, even though you initiate the insults. That is the way you operate, so you can play by yourself from now on. I am sorry you have such low opinion of me and such low regard for Baptist and scriptural principles, but I'm sure one of the prelatical denominations would welcome you with open arms.

My opinion of others drops when they refuse to back up their opinions with Scripture. They state their opinions but refuse to use Scripture. I have no use for such opinionated people. They are not here to debate but to state arrogant opinions which they cannot defend with Scripture. And then they call their opponents names, as you just did (Catholic), because you have no Scripture to back up your position.
A thread on the RCC is not proof that you use Scripture. You haven't used Scripture on this thread, only opinion, which is worth nothing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If we were to remove all the carnal Christians from the pews & church rosters, would we then be able to tally the true condition of the churches & real Christianity specifically? But most pastors are afraid to do that....for obvious reasons.... then we would have smaller numbers, smaller bank accounts, smaller programs, fewer clergy & smaller expectations. Now what do we replace it with? More serious Christians, deeper theological discussions, better targeted & focused education (from pablum to meat), more prophecy, deeper meaning in sermons, more support. Maybe.... just maybe we need to take the militant minority position & become the often persecuted 'Minority Church" struggling to grow & mindful of our every step as Christians. Perhaps that will make us better & more loving to our neighbors & to ourselves.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

First of all anyone cannot see that you use Scripture because you haven't used any in this thread.
Secondly, not everyone reads every thread. If you had noticed I haven't posted in the thread you have referenced and really haven't read it. It has nothing to do with this one. Your point therefore is a red herring.

No it doesn't. If one were to read just this thread, they would probably come to the conclusion that you were of the brethren faith or possibly had been highly influenced by Watchman Nee, who in his later years developed some heretical views

You obviously don't read carefully what I post and don't know what I believe to this day.

My opinion of others drops when they refuse to back up their opinions with Scripture. They state their opinions but refuse to use Scripture. I have no use for such opinionated people. They are not here to debate but to state arrogant opinions which they cannot defend with Scripture. And then they call their opponents names, as you just did (Catholic), because you have no Scripture to back up your position.
A thread on the RCC is not proof that you use Scripture. You haven't used Scripture on this thread, only opinion, which is worth nothing.

I said I refuse to be baited by you.

Still, there is scripture referenced in the Helwys confession, and the scripture that is the only one pertinent to this issue is well-known, even by you. You know exactly what it is. It destroys all mediatorial prelacy. It is the Biblical basis of the that cherished Baptist principle held from the beginning.

I didn't call you a Catholic. I referenced your Catholic past. Is your reading comprehension skill lacking, or are you just being dishonest, as usual?

All the scripture that you posted does not substantiate your view, so what good did it do to post it? None. Feel free to post some more, but you will never be able to find nor post any that back up your view because none exists. Scripture and Baptist history prove and affirm my position. They deny yours. Mine is thus the Baptist position; yours is not. Case closed.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

To address the original post:

My church is a very small one in a rural and isolated area. Very few pastors want to come and serve such a church, not even bi-vocational ones. Seems like many pastors these days are concerned more about salary than the Gospel.

Because of this, we are often without a pastor. But we do not let that prevent us from having the Lord's supper. As priests, we do not need nor require a pastor or clergy to mediate the Lord's supper to us.

In this we stand on scripture and agree with the original Helwys in his confession:

"11. That though in respect of CHRIST, the Church is one (Ephesians 4:4) yet it consists of diverse particular congregations, even so many as there will be in the World, every congregation, though they are but two or three, have CHRIST given them, with all the means of their salvation (Matthew 18:20 ; Romans 8:32; 1 Corinthians 3:22). They are the Body of CHRIST
(1 Corinthians 12:27) and a whole Church (1 Corinthians 14:23). And therefore may, and should, when they come together, to Pray, Prophecy, break bread, and administer in all the holy ordinances, although as yet they have no Officers, or that their Officers should be in Prison, sick, or by any other means hindered from the Church (1 Peter 4:10 and 2:5)."[/I]

 

[DHK]

To address the original post:

My church is a very small one in a rural and isolated area. Very few pastors want to come and serve such a church, not even bi-vocational ones. Seems like many pastors these days are concerned more about salary than the Gospel.

Because of this, we are often without a pastor. But we do not let that prevent us from having the Lord's supper. As priests, we do not need nor require a pastor or clergy to mediate the Lord's supper to us.

In this we stand on scripture and agree with the original Helwys in his confession:

"11. That though in respect of CHRIST, the Church is one (Ephesians 4:4) yet it consists of diverse particular congregations, even so many as there will be in the World, every congregation, though they are but two or three, have CHRIST given them, with all the means of their salvation (Matthew 18:20 ; Romans 8:32; 1 Corinthians 3:22). They are the Body of CHRIST
(1 Corinthians 12:27) and a whole Church (1 Corinthians 14:23). And therefore may, and should, when they come together, to Pray, Prophecy, break bread, and administer in all the holy ordinances, although as yet they have no Officers, or that their Officers should be in Prison, sick, or by any other means hindered from the Church (1 Peter 4:10 and 2:5)."[/I]

This is a debate forum. You have no more referenced Scripture than a Catholic references the Early Church Fathers.
We used to have Oneness Pentecostals post on this site. One of them couldn't explain his position without posting a link to their own website. You are like that person.
There is another poster here who habitually posts creeds rather than his own ideas backed up by Scriptures.

Can't you think for yourself. You haven't posted any Scripture! You posted someone's confession of faith. That is someone else's work, not yours.
In debate you refute your opponents position and back it up with the Scripture that you provide. Quoting from Helwys is meaningless to me. You have provided nothing. It doesn't show that you understand what you are talking about.
My four year old grandson can copy and paste. That is not a difficult task.
But to come to the table with the skill of actually thinking and debating the topic at hand, that is a different skill. And that is what you need to master when you come here.
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth (not the writings of Helwys).

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This is a debate forum. You have no more referenced Scripture than a Catholic references the Early Church Fathers.
We used to have Oneness Pentecostals post on this site. One of them couldn't explain his position without posting a link to their own website. You are like that person.
There is another poster here who habitually posts creeds rather than his own ideas backed up by Scriptures.

Can't you think for yourself. You haven't posted any Scripture! You posted someone's confession of faith. That is someone else's work, not yours.
In debate you refute your opponents position and back it up with the Scripture that you provide. Quoting from Helwys is meaningless to me. You have provided nothing. It doesn't show that you understand what you are talking about.
My four year old grandson can copy and paste. That is not a difficult task.
But to come to the table with the skill of actually thinking and debating the topic at hand, that is a different skill. And that is what you need to master when you come here.
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth (not the writings of Helwys).

You know exactly what the scripture is that I am talking about. I don't need to post it. You are merely baiting me. I won't play.

 

[DHK]

I said I refuse to be baited by you.

Still, there is scripture referenced in the Helwys confession, and the scripture that is the only one pertinent to this issue is well-known, even by you. You know exactly what it is.

I am not God. I don't read minds. You need to be specific.

It destroys all mediatorial prelacy. It is the Biblical basis of the that cherished Baptist principle held from the beginning.

On this principle you have been so vague that it seems to me you don't know or understand what it means. I have told you over and over again that it doesn't relate to the administration of the Lord's Table, and you have failed to explain how it does. Your failure to give any explanation leaves me to conclude two things:
1. You have no clue what "the priesthood of the believer is.
2. You certainly don't know how it relates to the ordinances. (It doesn't.)

I didn't call you a Catholic. I referenced your Catholic past. Is your reading comprehension skill lacking, or are you just being dishonest, as usual?

In the other thread no only have you lumped me in with the Catholics you have questioned my salvation, as Ann pointed out. Most posters receive an infraction for such things.

All the scripture that you posted does not substantiate your view, so what good did it do to post it? None.

Now there is your problem. If it doesn't substantiate my view prove it. Take the time to demonstrate it. At least I post Scripture. If you don't think it proves my point then take that Scripture and show why? You have failed to do that and so my posts stands and yours doesn't.

Feel free to post some more, but you will never be able to find nor post any that back up your view because none exists.

As long as you don't reply to the Scripture you don't defeat what I have posted,
and secondly, as long as you don't respond to my posts you don't actually know what I believe. And that is the truth of the matter. You do not know what I believe, you only think you do. But now you have gone off on a tirade falsely accusing me of things I do not believe and slandering me as well. Keep on doing it, and soon you will be receiving infractions.

Scripture and Baptist history prove and affirm my position. They deny yours. Mine is thus the Baptist position; yours is not. Case closed.

You are so confused we don't know what your position is anymore. If you are unwilling to engage in any intelligent debate how is one to know what you believe?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am not God. I don't read minds. You need to be specific.

On this principle you have been so vague that it seems to me you don't know or understand what it means. I have told you over and over again that it doesn't relate to the administration of the Lord's Table, and you have failed to explain how it does. Your failure to give any explanation leaves me to conclude two things:
1. You have no clue what "the priesthood of the believer is.
2. You certainly don't know how it relates to the ordinances. (It doesn't.)

In the other thread no only have you lumped me in with the Catholics you have questioned my salvation, as Ann pointed out. Most posters receive an infraction for such things.

Now there is your problem. If it doesn't substantiate my view prove it. Take the time to demonstrate it. At least I post Scripture. If you don't think it proves my point then take that Scripture and show why? You have failed to do that and so my posts stands and yours doesn't.

As long as you don't reply to the Scripture you don't defeat what I have posted,
and secondly, as long as you don't respond to my posts you don't actually know what I believe. And that is the truth of the matter. You do not know what I believe, you only think you do. But now you have gone off on a tirade falsely accusing me of things I do not believe and slandering me as well. Keep on doing it, and soon you will be receiving infractions.

You are so confused we don't know what your position is anymore. If you are unwilling to engage in any intelligent debate how is one to know what you believe?

See, this is how you work and then try to play innocent. You deflect by accusing me of things of which I am not guilty. I have not questioned your salvation, or slandered you, but you have slandered me, so when will you give your self an infraction? Your whole post is filled with lies. Any objective observer who reads this thread knows the truth, the truth of my position and of the content of your posts.

As I said elsewhere, I wish to have nothing further to do with you.

 

[DHK]

closed by request.