The breath of God...

[DHK]

No, you added your interpretation! I showed what the scriptures meant in in Romans 8:26. He helps us pray out in groanings according to the perfect will of God.

This is not true. You are making the verse to lie. Look at it:

Romans 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

It does not say that he helps you to pray in groanings!
You are not taking this scripture seriously. You are reading it with closed indoctrinated Charismatic-only eyes. It is the Holy Spirit only; He Himself that makes intercession for US, with groanings which CANNOT be uttered. You do not have the ability to do something that God alone can do.

He says he helps us. He does not say he helps you groan. It does not say that. You don't need to groan. You need to pray with your intellect so that God can understand you. God doesn't understand your groans. He understands your prayers.
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
In context, how specific was the prayer of Elijah?

James 5:17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again; and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
--He prayed fervently that it would not rain. It didn't rain for 3 1/2 years.
He prayed again that it would rain. And then it did rain.
His prayers were not groans. They were intelligent prayers, specific prayers that God could understand.

AGAIN, IF THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAYS THE PERFECT PRAYER AND DOES NOT NEED US TO SPEAK AT ALL..WHY PRAY? You still have not answered this question.

As we pray the Holy Spirit also intercedes for us. It is a ministry of intercession. He doesn't take your place in prayer; He intercedes on your behalf.
Here is a symbolic picture:
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
The incense represents the Holy Spirit as it ascends with the prayers of the saints to God. The Holy Spirit plays an intercessory part in the prayer life of the believer. The groanings which cannot be uttered are just that--groanings which cannot be uttered. They are part of the work of the Holy Spirit. Why claim to be able to do something that only God can do?

Some might say, "Well, if the Holy Ghost is praying for me..He knows how to get the job done, so there is no use for me to pray"..Do you see what your interpretation could lead to?

No. I know I am commanded to pray.
I know that the Holy Spirit has an intercessory ministry for the believers.
I know that the Holy Spirit will bring to mind things that I need to pray for.
I know that the Holy Spirit always works within a framework of understanding.

 

[DHK]

I would rather let scripture interpret scripture...not man!

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.
Scripture says that Jesus commanded them to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit would come.
You want to contradict the Scripture. You are the man you are trusting in instead of the Scripture.

 

[DHK]

Therefore, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday, it was when they received salvation. THe breath of God was breath on them...

So before that time, as when Peter gave his great confession of Christ being the Messiah the Son of God, he was not saved then?
All of the apostles were not saved all the time they followed Christ??
This is what you believe?

 

[awaken]

This is not true. You are making the verse to lie. Look at it:

Romans 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

It does not say that he helps you to pray in groanings!
You are not taking this scripture seriously. You are reading it with closed indoctrinated Charismatic-only eyes. It is the Holy Spirit only; He Himself that makes intercession for US, with groanings which CANNOT be uttered. You do not have the ability to do something that God alone can do.

He says he helps us. He does not say he helps you groan. It does not say that. You don't need to groan. You need to pray with your intellect so that God can understand you. God doesn't understand your groans. He understands your prayers.
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
In context, how specific was the prayer of Elijah?

James 5:17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again; and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
--He prayed fervently that it would not rain. It didn't rain for 3 1/2 years.
He prayed again that it would rain. And then it did rain.
His prayers were not groans. They were intelligent prayers, specific prayers that God could understand.

As we pray the Holy Spirit also intercedes for us. It is a ministry of intercession. He doesn't take your place in prayer; He intercedes on your behalf.
Here is a symbolic picture:
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
The incense represents the Holy Spirit as it ascends with the prayers of the saints to God. The Holy Spirit plays an intercessory part in the prayer life of the believer. The groanings which cannot be uttered are just that--groanings which cannot be uttered. They are part of the work of the Holy Spirit. Why claim to be able to do something that only God can do?

No. I know I am commanded to pray.
I know that the Holy Spirit has an intercessory ministry for the believers.
I know that the Holy Spirit will bring to mind things that I need to pray for.
I know that the Holy Spirit always works within a framework of understanding.

God never said we could not groan..I am not making any verse to mean a lie! So you just called me a liar..blasphemer..etc. Can you address the thread without your finger pointing..name calling! I was warned about this but did not think it was this bad here!
We are just going to have to disagree AGAIN!

 

[awaken]

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.
Scripture says that Jesus commanded them to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit would come.
You want to contradict the Scripture. You are the man you are trusting in instead of the Scripture.

:BangHead::BangHead:

 

[awaken]

So before that time, as when Peter gave his great confession of Christ being the Messiah the Son of God, he was not saved then?
All of the apostles were not saved all the time they followed Christ??
This is what you believe?

Can you be saved without believing in the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[awaken]

The disciples received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22) immediately after they received salvation (John 20:19-21):
"And with that he [Jesus] breathed on them [the disciples] and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:22) So you are saying they did not receive?

Most agree that they received the indwelling Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation, and here I see the disciples receiving the Holy Spirit immediately after they received salvation. There is nothing in this passage to indicate that the disciples only "partially" received the Holy Spirit.

Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit to the disciples by breathing on them. Why did He do that? Jesus created everything that has been created (John 1:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2), and after Jesus formed Adam from the dust of the ground He imparted spiritual life to Adam by breathing on him:
"Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life; and man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7, AMP)
When Jesus breathed into Adam's nostrils in Genesis 2:7, Adam immediately received spiritual life. Since Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples on Resurrection Sunday in a deliberate way as an exact parallel of Genesis 2:7, it is reasonable to conclude that the disciples immediately received spiritual life, just as Adam did.

Here is a mans opinion...maybe you will take what he says..

Bible Knowledge Commentary says:
"Since the Fall, regeneration by the "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit is essential in order for people to enjoy fellowship with God." (Old Testament edition, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.30, emphasis added)
The disciples received a direct "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, and this mainline commentary explains that the "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit happens when we are regenerated (saved). So when the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday, it was at the time of their salvation.

 

[awaken]

ANother point to consider...

Immediately after breathing the Holy Spirit into the disciples on Resurrection Sunday, Jesus said:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:23)

Since the disciples now had the authority to declare other people's sins as being forgiven, it is reasonable that their own sins were now forgiven. It would not seem reasonable for the disciples to be able to "forgive anyone his sins" if they had to wait until Pentecost for their own sins to be forgiven!

Jesus' statement makes perfect sense if the disciples were saved on Resurrection Sunday.

 

[DHK]

Can you be saved without believing in the resurrection of Jesus?

How was Abraham saved? By faith!
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

How was David saved? In the same manner. By faith.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.

OT or NT, all are saved by faith.
Romans 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;

Yes, they were saved before the resurrection.
Or do you believe that John the Baptist, whom Christ praised, died and went to Hell as an unsaved evil wicked man like the Pharisees that he refused to baptize.

 

[awaken]

How was Abraham saved? By faith!
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

How was David saved? In the same manner. By faith.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.

OT or NT, all are saved by faith.
Romans 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;

Yes, they were saved before the resurrection.
Or do you believe that John the Baptist, whom Christ praised, died and went to Hell as an unsaved evil wicked man like the Pharisees that he refused to baptize.

I believe they were in paradise until after Jesus resurrected.
As I said before..Jesus said receive the Holy Spirit and breathed on them. THere is no reason to believe that they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[awaken]

I have several more points to show that they were saved...
A week after Resurrection Sunday, Jesus again came and stood with the disciples in a locked room, and this time Thomas (the doubter) was present. Jesus said that Thomas was now a believer because he saw the proof that Jesus was resurrected. Jesus further stated that those who believe in Him without actually seeing Him will be blessed with salvation as well:
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."" (John 20:26-29)
Notice that the focus in this passage is on salvation, not spiritual empowerment

 

[DHK]

ANother point to consider...

Immediately after breathing the Holy Spirit into the disciples on Resurrection Sunday, Jesus said:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:23)

Since the disciples now had the authority to declare other people's sins as being forgiven, it is reasonable that their own sins were now forgiven. It would not seem reasonable for the disciples to be able to "forgive anyone his sins" if they had to wait until Pentecost for their own sins to be forgiven!

Jesus' statement makes perfect sense if the disciples were saved on Resurrection Sunday.

No man has power to forgive sins. They weren't Catholic priests lol.
It is with the gospel that comes forgiveness of sins. The Great Commission is given in all the gospels and in Acts 1:8. They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Those that received Christ would have their sins forgiven, and those who rejected him would not have their sins forgiven.
Do you honestly think that Jesus taught 12 unsaved men for three years. There was only one of them that Jesus said was not saved. He called him the son of perdition, and that was Judas Iscariot, the one that betrayed Him. As early as Matthew 4, Andrew went and got his brother Simon, and said to him: "Come and see, is not this the Messiah." He had already believed that Christ was the Messiah. He had already trusted him. At that time Peter had as well. And they both left all and followed him.

 

[awaken]

I know that the Holy Spirit always works within a framework of understanding.

Really? You understand everything there is to know of the work of the Holy Spirit? Do you understand everything before you step out in faith? Did you know everything about salvation when you by faith accepted what He did on the cross? I did not..I am still learning what He did for us. I am also learning about the work of the HOly Spirit..I do not understand everything. Some things the Holy Spirit does might come across foolish to our little minds. Just like Jesus spitting in dirt and putting it on the eyes of the blind man. My understanding would be.."WHy didn't he just lay hands on him?" "Why not just speak the words?" BUt I do believe he did it because His word says it! I do not try to expalin things away just because they don't make sense to my small brain.
I believe that our understanding comes from our spirit concerning spiritual things.

 

[DHK]

I have several more points to show that they were saved...
A week after Resurrection Sunday, Jesus again came and stood with the disciples in a locked room, and this time Thomas (the doubter) was present.

He never doubted Christ. He doubted that he had risen from the dead, as all the apostles had.

Jesus said that Thomas was now a believer because he saw the proof that Jesus was resurrected. Jesus further stated that those who believe in Him without actually seeing Him will be blessed with salvation as well:

He was a believer only in the sense that he now believed that Christ had risen from the dead. He then made a wider application.

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."" (John 20:26-29)
Notice that the focus in this passage is on salvation, not spiritual empowerment

The application is for salvation. Thomas was a believer just like Peter was. He simply doubted at that time that Christ had risen from the dead. That didn't make him unsaved.
You would have us believe that all OT and every pre-cross believer is unsaved. That is a ludicrous position.
Go and read the 11th chapter of the Book of Hebrews, that which we commonly label as the "Heroes of the Faith." They are all pre-cross. You categorize them all as unsaved. And yet the writer refers to them as great men and women of faith. How do you account for that?

 

[DHK]

Really? You understand everything there is to know of the work of the Holy Spirit? Do you understand everything before you step out in faith? Did you know everything about salvation when you by faith accepted what He did on the cross? I did not..I am still learning what He did for us. I am also learning about the work of the HOly Spirit..I do not understand everything. Some things the Holy Spirit does might come across foolish to our little minds. Just like Jesus spitting in dirt and putting it on the eyes of the blind man. My understanding would be.."WHy didn't he just lay hands on him?" "Why not just speak the words?" BUt I do believe he did it because His word says it! I do not try to expalin things away just because they don't make sense to my small brain.
I believe that our understanding comes from our spirit concerning spiritual things.

I did not say I have all understanding.
I said God works within a framework of understanding.
He communicates with us (and we with him) in a way that we can understand. That is what makes modern day tongues wrong. God is not the author of confusion. God chooses to communicate with people in a way that they can understand Him. He speaks to the mind. He uses the Word. And the Holy Spirit speaks through the Word.

 

[DHK]

I believe they were in paradise until after Jesus resurrected.
As I said before..Jesus said receive the Holy Spirit and breathed on them. THere is no reason to believe that they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Except that it contradicts Scripture. Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem and then they would be endued from on high with the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. In John it was simply symbolic.
When Jesus "Receive ye..."
It didn't necessarily mean receive right then and there. They would receive it, but not right then. It was somewhat prophetic. There was only one time that they would receive it.

 

[awaken]

He never doubted Christ. He doubted that he had risen from the dead, as all the apostles had.

He still doubted!

He was a believer only in the sense that he now believed that Christ had risen from the dead. He then made a wider application.

It was still believing on His resurrection!

The application is for salvation. Thomas was a believer just like Peter was. He simply doubted at that time that Christ had risen from the dead. That didn't make him unsaved.

WHat did Paul say was included in the gospel?

2 Timothy 2:8: "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,"

Here's how Paul reminded the Corinthian church of the Gospel message, including the evidence for Jesus' death and resurrection (compare this with the above passages):
1 Corinthians 15:1: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand."
1 Corinthians 15:2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
1 Corinthians 15:3: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,"
1 Corinthians 15:4: "that he was buried [proving that He died], that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
1 Corinthians 15:5: "and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
1 Corinthians 15:6: "After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep [the hundreds of eyewitnesses were proof of the Resurrection]."
1 Corinthians 15:7: "Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,"
1 Corinthians 15:8: "and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
1 Corinthians 15:9: "For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
1 Corinthians 15:10: "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1 Corinthians 15:11: "Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

According to all of the evidence, "proper faith" in Jesus means:
Believing that Jesus died to atone for your personal sins against God. This means you know that you deserve to be condemned to hell for your sins, but you are trusting that you will go to heaven because Jesus has already paid the penalty for you by dying on the cross as your Substitute.
Believing that Jesus, the Son of God, was resurrected from the dead

j

You would have us believe that all OT and every pre-cross believer is unsaved. That is a ludicrous position.
Go and read the 11th chapter of the Book of Hebrews, that which we commonly label as the "Heroes of the Faith." They are all pre-cross. You categorize them all as unsaved. And yet the writer refers to them as great men and women of faith. How do you account for that?

Without our belief in His resurrection our faith in not in line with scriptures.

 

[awaken]

Except that it contradicts Scripture. Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem and then they would be endued from on high with the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. In John it was simply symbolic.
When Jesus "Receive ye..."
It didn't necessarily mean receive right then and there. They would receive it, but not right then. It was somewhat prophetic. There was only one time that they would receive it.

THere you go..limiting the work of the Holy Spirit! THere is a work within and upon by the Holy Spirit!

 

[awaken]

I did not say I have all understanding.
I said God works within a framework of understanding.
He communicates with us (and we with him) in a way that we can understand. That is what makes modern day tongues wrong. God is not the author of confusion. God chooses to communicate with people in a way that they can understand Him. He speaks to the mind. He uses the Word. And the Holy Spirit speaks through the Word.

THere are some things in scripture you will never experience unless you step out on faith..even before you understand with your human mind. Salvation is one of them! Yes, we understand that He is the Son of God, He died and arose, he is coming back. We are sinners separated from God until we believe His Word. But I am still learning and understanding all there is to know and walk out in salvation. We are told to work out our salvation..we did not understand it ALL!

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? (THis is how we understand the things of God, with our spirit) even so the things of God knoweth no man, but by the Spirit (HOly Spirit teaches) of God"

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

"Our natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

MOst Christians try to reason things out with their natural man...and that is where the confusion comes in! The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth!

 

[awaken]

The rest of the book of John describes some things that the disciples did after they received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday. If they had received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for their ministry, is there any evidence that they had received power? No, all John describes them doing is going fishing, eating a meal with Jesus, and having a conversation with Him:
""I'm going out to fish," Simon Peter told them, and they said, "We'll go with you." So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing. Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. ... When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread. Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught." Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord." (John 21:3-12)
Throughout the rest of the book of John and the beginning of the book of Acts there is no indication that the disciples had received any supernatural power. There is no evidence to support the conclusion that spiritual empowerment was the reason why the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday.