Eschatology

[Herald]

Maybe you need to rethink, IMO, on the whole, it HAS gone to that extreme already:

"...Christian Zionism is essentially Christian support for Zionism. Zionism is a political system based on ethnic exclusivity giving Jews preferential political rights which are denied to Palestinians. The United Nations has defined Zionism as a form of racism and apartheid. Nevertheless, in the words of Grace Halsell the essential message of the Christian Zionist is this: “every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.”

The Significance of the Christian Zionist Movement

Estimates as to the size of the movement as a whole vary considerably. While critics like Crowley claim, ‘At least one out of every 10 Americans is a devotee’, that is between ‘25 to 30 million’, Christian Zionists such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell claim weekly access to 100 million sympathetic Americans. What ever the true figure, all are agreed, that number that is growing in size and influence. They are led by 80,000 fundamentalist pastors and clergy, their views disseminated by 1,000 local Christian radio stations as well as 100 Christian TV stations. Doug Kreiger lists over 250 pro-Israeli organisations founded in the 1980s alone...."

I am not sure of these statistics. I know quite a few dispensationalist pastors and seminary professors who think Christian Zionism is plain wrong and dangerous. I already granted you that dispensationalism, as a system, can go that route; I just happen to believe it is a small fraction of dispensationalists who buy into it. But time will tell whether it grows like kudzu across the dispensationalist landscape.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

To answer your question, I am an amillennialist. I believe God has had one called out people since the line of Seth. I disagree with my dispensationalist brethren who see the New Covenant as a future promise including national Israel. The New Covenant is made with the spiritual seed of Abraham, the Church. I do not see a future for national Israel in prophecy. Awaiting on the prophetic clock is the return of Christ and the final judgment. The only eschatological view on this board I consider to be Hersey is full blown preterism.

Thank you for a succinct, civil answer.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am not criticizing, it is just odd to run into a non-RCC amillennialist who is not a Covenant Theologian and a Calvinist. Not unheard of, but highly unusual.

Well, that's just one of the "highly unusual" things about me. I guess I owe, or blame it on, my studies, at least partly.

By the way, to clarify, I said I was merely "leaning" to an amillennial position. But I am definitely not dispensationalist or Covenant in theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, that just one of the "highly unusual" things about me. I guess I owe, or blame it on, my studies, at least partly.

By the way, to clarify, I said I was merely "leaning" to an amillennial position. But I am definitely not dispensationalist or Covenant in theology.

About as rare as finding one like myself who does hold to Dispy eschatology, yet also to the calvinistic Doctrines of grace!

 

[webdog]

You said:



Is that 'remotely' enough for you?

Really webdog, you're a grown man with wife and children, a family to think of. Drop this fictional 'last days' fantasy with AC, the third temple, Armageddon, the Great Tribulation, etc., and stop dwelling in the negative, try to think positive and have some hope with what we have in front of us. Teach your children to have hope, not despair. Accept that Christ reigns now and His will is going to be done, always. You're no prophet, prophecies are not given in the Bible so that you can be a prophet, it's all going to pan out just the way it's supposed to. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

I didn't link Obama and the antichrist, you did. They both want a peace treaty. Like I said, reading comprehension. Stop calling me a prophet, I never claimed to be one.

 

[webdog]

Although it began as a system with John Nelson Darby about 200 years ago.

Supersessionism was the predominant teaching of the church until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th century.

Thats false. Heirofsalvation supplied a quote almost a thousand years before then just recently. Also many quotes from the time between then and Darby.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thats false. Heirofsalvation supplied a quote almost a thousand years before then just recently. Also many quotes from the time between then and Darby.

I didn't say it. I took it from an article, the relevant part being: "Supersessionism is the belief that the New Covenant in Christ supersedes, or replaces, the Old Covenant with Israel. It comes in at least two forms: covenant theology and kingdom theology. It was the predominant teaching of the church until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th century."

Also, here is a link to an article on supersessionism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

The following is the last paragraph under the section, "Church Fathers":

"Various forms of supersessionism have been the mainstream Christian interpretation of the New Testament since the inception of all three main historical traditions within Christianity — Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant."

If anyone wants to believe in a doctrinal system that is just 200 years old, fine. But let's be historically accurate.

 

[kyredneck]

I didn't link Obama and the antichrist, you did. They both want a peace treaty. Like I said, reading comprehension. Stop calling me a prophet, I never claimed to be one.

"They both want a peace treaty."

Who is "they both"?

It's like I said, you're implying Obama is in kahoots with this fictional, imaginary character that you call Antichrist. Who is he? I'd really like to know.

 

[webdog]

I didn't say it. I took it from an article, the relevant part being: "Supersessionism is the belief that the New Covenant in Christ supersedes, or replaces, the Old Covenant with Israel. It comes in at least two forms: covenant theology and kingdom theology. It was the predominant teaching of the church until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th century."

Also, here is a link to an article on supersessionism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

The following is the last paragraph under the section, "Church Fathers":

"Various forms of supersessionism have been the mainstream Christian interpretation of the New Testament since the inception of all three main historical traditions within Christianity — Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant."

If anyone wants to believe in a doctrinal system that is just 200 years old, fine. But let's be historically accurate.

...and like I said, its dead wrong regardless who says it. It hasn't only been around for 200 years.

 

[webdog]

"They both want a peace treaty."

Who is "they both"?

It's like I said, you're implying Obama is in kahoots with this fictional, imaginary character that you call Antichrist. Who is he? I'd really like to know.

Unbelievable. BOTH OBAMA AND THE ANTICHRIST DESIRE A FICTIONAL PEACE TREATY. I said nothing about them partnering or anything remotely like it. Read what I write not what you want to hear!

 

[percho]

To call dispensationalism heresy is as stupid as it gets.

Are you saying, "Stupid is as stupid does?"

Mama?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

...and like I said, its dead wrong regardless who says it. It hasn't only been around for 200 years.

History disagrees. As a system, it began with John Nelson Darby.

 

[Amy.G]

Are you saying, "Stupid is as stupid does?"

Mama?

:laugh: Best post on this thread!

 

[percho]

What did God mean when saying this, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31 and quoted in Hebrews 8:8

Also what happened to the house of Judah when you get to verse 33/10 respectively.

Has that taken place? Been replaced by something different? Called by something different in the NT? Yet to come?

 

[kyredneck]

Unbelievable. BOTH OBAMA AND THE ANTICHRIST DESIRE A FICTIONAL PEACE TREATY. I said nothing about them partnering or anything remotely like it. Read what I write not what you want to hear!

Unbelievable:

Exactly. If anything Obama's trip has shown the world including a veiled Israel are pushing for what the Antichrist wants, a phony peace treaty.

Again webdog, who is this character you call AntiChrist?

 

[webdog]

Unbelievable:



Again webdog, who is this character you call AntiChrist?

We don't, and won't know. If you understand our beliefs like you say you would already know that

 

[Winman]

Waaaaay up in the hills! :laugh:

We'ins don't even wear shoes up here and our favorite past time is handlin' rattle snakes and drinkin' strychnine. We'ins even got us a still out back!


HERE is a good explanation for the 70 weeks of Daniel. Do the math. (I would but I'm too dumb cause I be livin in the hills too long.)

Tennessee Ernie Ford said his family lived so far out in the woods, that nobody lived behind them. :laugh:

OK, back to the debate.

 

[kyredneck]

We don't, and won't know.....

You talk as if he's already here; what is he, a spirit? A celestial being? Is he controlling Obama like a puppet?

 

[webdog]

You talk as if he's already here; what is he, a spirit? A celestial being? Is he controlling Obama like a puppet?

Not wastng my time on one non seqitur after another.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Tennessee Ernie Ford said his family lived so far out in the woods, that nobody lived behind them. :laugh:

OK, back to the debate.

:laugh:

I just need to add that I do not discount the premillennial position. It was held by some in the early church, along with the amillennial. What I do disavow is the dispensational version of that, as it was a system created by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century and dishonors Jesus by making national Israel the focal point of history and regarding the church as a mere parenthesis.