If the Holy Spirit is In Charasmatic Movement, Why the errors and heresies?

[DHK]

There are many languages in the world I recognize maybe 5! Everytime you speak in tongues it could be a different language.

You implied in your post that we HAVE to know the language we speak! No where in the Bible does it say that! IT says just the opposite!

No it isn't. Look in other translations. Look carefully in the KJV. The word "unknown" is in italics. It was inserted there by the translators and is not in the originals. It would make better sense if they had omitted it. Then instead of using the word tongues, think languages. They spoke in languages. That is what it says.
They didn't learn them, but gave them the languages as a gift, i.e., the "gift of languages." Then they knew them. It wouldn't be a gift if they didn't know them. Paul spoke in languages more than them all. Why? He was a missionary. He had the need. Also he was an apostle. The languages were Spanish, when he went to Spain, and other localized languages when he traveled. God gave him that gift. It was a gift of languages. He didn't learn them, but he knew what it was, and was able to use it when needed. That is what is taught.
That is why the verse says: Speak to yourself. You have understanding enough that you can speak to yourself and understand yourself. But others cannot. In your spirit you have understanding. But no one else will unless you have an interpreter, therefore without an interpreter it is a useless gift (if there is no one there that speaks that language). Why speak Spanish to an English speaking crowd? That was the problem in Corinth.

 

[awaken]

No it isn't. Look in other translations. Look carefully in the KJV. The word "unknown" is in italics. It was inserted there by the translators and is not in the originals. It would make better sense if they had omitted it. Then instead of using the word tongues, think languages. They spoke in languages. That is what it says.

Why do you insist on making a point that I have always agreed too! I know tongues is a language!

They didn't learn them, but gave them the languages as a gift, i.e., the "gift of languages." Then they knew them.

This is where we disagree and the Bible also disagrees with this statement. If the speaker knew the language...why does he have to have an interpretation? Why do we have to pray for an interpretation? Answer these questions correctly and you will see that your theory is wrong about tongues...that we have to know the language spoken is not scriptural!

It wouldn't be a gift if they didn't know them.

The gift is the HOly Spirit! Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Can you show me in scripture where the person has to know the language they are speaking? Not just your opinion!

Paul spoke in languages more than them all. Why? He was a missionary. He had the need. Also he was an apostle. The languages were Spanish, when he went to Spain, and other localized languages when he traveled. God gave him that gift. It was a gift of languages. He didn't learn them, but he knew what it was, and was able to use it when needed. That is what is taught.

Show me that is scripture! That is how you reason it out to fit your theories taught in seminaries.

That is why the verse says: Speak to yourself. You have understanding enough that you can speak to yourself and understand yourself. But others cannot. In your spirit you have understanding. But no one else will unless you have an interpreter, therefore without an interpreter it is a useless gift (if there is no one there that speaks that language). Why speak Spanish to an English speaking crowd? That was the problem in Corinth.

I agree that we are not to speak in church without an interpreter. But you are confused about tongues being understood by the speaker!

You will not find in any of the examples given in scriptures that tongues was used to evangalize as you claim Paul did.

 

[DHK]

Why do you insist on making a point that I have always agreed too! I know tongues is a language!

Then why do you have a hard time understanding what "the gift of languages" is?
I am a missionary. When I went to a foreign nation it took some time to "learn the language." Many times I had wished I had the "gift of languages" and did not have to learn the language. Suppose I did receive it. Normally I would not need a translator. However, if I had a number of people from America visit me, then I would need someone to interpret the language I am speaking in back into English that they also may understand. There were always two language groups present in Corinth. It was a major trading route.

This is where we disagree and the Bible also disagrees with this statement. If the speaker knew the language...why does he have to have an interpretation?

Because there were always two language groups present. Not just one.
They were misusing the gift. Everyone spoke Greek; that is where Corinth is--in Greece, and besides that Greek was the universal language of the day, much like English is today. Almost everyone knew it.
But Corinth was situated on a major trading route, and thus was privy to many different ethnic groups along with their various languages. Speaking in another language always has purpose, It is not something to simply be done at random. If there was a need then the gift of languages were to be used, not just at any time someone pop up and speak in tongues. That is foolishness. That is what Paul was forbidding. The gift had purpose.
If for example, Spanish people entered the church that did not know Greek well, and someone had the gift of Spanish then God would use them to edify those that spoke Spanish by using one who had the gift of speaking in Spanish. The interpreter would interpret the message back into Greek for the benefit of the rest of the congregation. Everything was to be done in order; there was to be no chaos.

Why do we have to pray for an interpretation? Answer these questions correctly and you will see that your theory is wrong about tongues...that we have to know the language spoken is not scriptural!

I have been at a meeting where the preacher preached in his own language and then he interpreted his own message for the sake of those who spoke English. There was no one there to interpret for him. There are always two language groups for the gift of tongues to be purposeful. Many times that second language group were the Jews simply because tongues were a sign to the Jews.

The gift is the HOly Spirit! Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Can you show me in scripture where the person has to know the language they are speaking? Not just your opinion!

You are contradicting yourself. Let's go with what you just said. All the gifts have ceased. Why? Because the gift is the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need to operate through any gifts. He indwells every believer. If he is the gift then the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and have become irrelevant. We have the Holy Spirit; He is all we need. i can live with that.

But that is not what the Scriptures say. There were actual gifts that were given out, distributed by the Holy Spirit: the gift of healing, the gift of languages, the gift of helps, etc.
In Acts 2, the gift was the gift of languages. The Bible says it was. It speaks of no other gift but languages. Then it says they heard every man speak in his own language
They were praising God--speaking forth the wonderful works of God--not praying. But they were doing so in another language. They knew the languages they were speaking in. It was a miraculous gift of languages. In order to speak forth praises or works, they had to formulate in their minds what they were going to say, just as one has to do now
A very good example of this was the last episode of "The Bible" series shown on the History Channel. They portrayed it very well. One by one they shouted out "the wonderful works of God."
Examples: "He is risen" in Arabic. But he would have to be able to think how to express the thought "he is risen" in Arabic before he says it. He would not say something he does not understand. He would speak with understanding. Paul condemned saying anything without understanding.

Show me that is scripture! That is how you reason it out to fit your theories taught in seminaries.

The Scripture is "I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all."
Also: 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4
Also all the Scripture pertaining to 3 different missionary churches and the historical evidence related to it demonstrating that on those 3 missionary journeys he started over 100 churches. He had need of them or the gift of languages more than them all.
He was an apostle. As 2Cor.12:12 says: It was a sign of an apostle.
This has nothing to do with seminaries. I have mentioned before that I have studied this subject out thoroughly. I teach in a Bible College. One course I teach in and of itself is "The Charismatic Movement." I have put much study into this subject. I have also spent a lot of time preaching through the book of First Corinthians with the end result of a commentary of over 600 pages. Seminaries don't teach me that. I have gained this through my own thorough study. The last time I was in seminary was 36 years ago.

I agree that we are not to speak in church without an interpreter. But you are confused about tongues being understood by the speaker!

I am not the one confused. It is a gift of languages.
What about the gift of healing? Did the person who had the gift use it without any knowledge of the illness he was healing. Did they come to him and say: "I can't tell you what is wrong but heal me anyway." It required understanding. He knew if he was healing a broken arm, the blind, the deaf, the crippled. And those that spoke in languages were not stupid about what they were saying. It was a gift of languages.

You will not find in any of the examples given in scriptures that tongues was used to evangalize as you claim Paul did.

You will not find anywhere in all my posts that I said it was.
The gift was given to the church to edify the members of the church.
It was never to be used outside the assembly.
It was never for private use.

 

[awaken]

Then why do you have a hard time understanding what "the gift of languages" is?
I am a missionary. When I went to a foreign nation it took some time to "learn the language." Many times I had wished I had the "gift of languages" and did not have to learn the language. Suppose I did receive it. Normally I would not need a translator. However, if I had a number of people from America visit me, then I would need someone to interpret the language I am speaking in back into English that they also may understand. There were always two language groups present in Corinth. It was a major trading route.

Again, I agree that tongues is a language...I with you on the pupose of tongue.

Because there were always two language groups present. Not just one.
They were misusing the gift. Everyone spoke Greek; that is where Corinth is--in Greece, and besides that Greek was the universal language of the day, much like English is today. Almost everyone knew it.
But Corinth was situated on a major trading route, and thus was privy to many different ethnic groups along with their various languages. Speaking in another language always has purpose, It is not something to simply be done at random. If there was a need then the gift of languages were to be used, not just at any time someone pop up and speak in tongues. That is foolishness. That is what Paul was forbidding. The gift had purpose.
If for example, Spanish people entered the church that did not know Greek well, and someone had the gift of Spanish then God would use them to edify those that spoke Spanish by using one who had the gift of speaking in Spanish. The interpreter would interpret the message back into Greek for the benefit of the rest of the congregation. Everything was to be done in order; there was to be no chaos.

YOur purpose and the Bible purpose does not match up!

I have been at a meeting where the preacher preached in his own language and then he interpreted his own message for the sake of those who spoke English. There was no one there to interpret for him. There are always two language groups for the gift of tongues to be purposeful. Many times that second language group were the Jews simply because tongues were a sign to the Jews.

Isn't that translation? You ignore too many scriptures in 1 Cor. 14!

You are contradicting yourself. Let's go with what you just said. All the gifts have ceased. Why? Because the gift is the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need to operate through any gifts. He indwells every believer. If he is the gift then the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and have become irrelevant. We have the Holy Spirit; He is all we need. i can live with that.

You are still confused on the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Now he starts to name those manifestations...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom *; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit *; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles *; to another prophecy *; to another discerning of spirits *; to another divers kinds of tongues *; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But that is not what the Scriptures say. There were actual gifts that were given out, distributed by the Holy Spirit: the gift of healing, the gift of languages, the gift of helps, etc.
In Acts 2, the gift was the gift of languages. The Bible says it was. It speaks of no other gift but languages. Then it says they heard every man speak in his own language

The Holy Spirit gave them the utterance. They were manifesting what the Holy Spirit gave them to manifest.

They were praising God--speaking forth the wonderful works of God--not praying. But they were doing so in another language. They knew the languages they were speaking in. It was a miraculous gift of languages. In order to speak forth praises or works, they had to formulate in their minds what they were going to say, just as one has to do now
A very good example of this was the last episode of "The Bible" series shown on the History Channel. They portrayed it very well. One by one they shouted out "the wonderful works of God."
Examples: "He is risen" in Arabic. But he would have to be able to think how to express the thought "he is risen" in Arabic before he says it. He would not say something he does not understand. He would speak with understanding. Paul condemned saying anything without understanding.

The Scripture is "I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all."
Also: 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4
Also all the Scripture pertaining to 3 different missionary churches and the historical evidence related to it demonstrating that on those 3 missionary journeys he started over 100 churches. He had need of them or the gift of languages more than them all.
He was an apostle. As 2Cor.12:12 says: It was a sign of an apostle.
This has nothing to do with seminaries. I have mentioned before that I have studied this subject out thoroughly. I teach in a Bible College. One course I teach in and of itself is "The Charismatic Movement." I have put much study into this subject. I have also spent a lot of time preaching through the book of First Corinthians with the end result of a commentary of over 600 pages. Seminaries don't teach me that. I have gained this through my own thorough study. The last time I was in seminary was 36 years ago.

I am not the one confused. It is a gift of languages.
What about the gift of healing? Did the person who had the gift use it without any knowledge of the illness he was healing. Did they come to him and say: "I can't tell you what is wrong but heal me anyway." It required understanding. He knew if he was healing a broken arm, the blind, the deaf, the crippled. And those that spoke in languages were not stupid about what they were saying. It was a gift of languages.

You will not find anywhere in all my posts that I said it was.
The gift was given to the church to edify the members of the church.
It was never to be used outside the assembly.
It was never for private use.

YOu have yet to answer my question! You avoid it! Why? Because if you answer it correctly it would stop your theory in its track!

WHY DID THEY HAVE TO PRAY FOR THE INTERPRETATION IF THEY KNEW THE LANGUAGE???

 

[DHK]

YOur purpose and the Bible purpose does not match up!

I have given you the purpose of the gift of languages from the Bible.
What doesn't match up. The only thing that doesn't match up is the meaning that you want to force into the Bible, such as the speaking of gibberish which you do. If you believe they are actual languages then tell me what languages have you spoken in.

1. Tongues are for a sign to authenticate the apostles and their message (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4).
2. Tongues are for a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21)
3. Tongues was a revelatory gift which would cease when the revelation would be complete (1Cor.13:8).
4. Tongues was a gift given to the church as all the gifts were, and never for private use.

Isn't that translation? You ignore too many scriptures in 1 Cor. 14!

If someone translates for me he interprets for me. They are the same thing. Pray for interpretation (translation). What is the difference? There is none.

You are still confused on the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! Tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Now he starts to name those manifestations...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom *; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit *; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles *; to another prophecy *; to another discerning of spirits *; to another divers kinds of tongues *; to another the interpretation of tongues:

No. I have explained this to you over and over again. The gift of languages is a gift of the Holy Spirit. You get hung up on these larger and older words and then attach your own unique meanings to them. Then you have changed the meaning of the Bible. So I will once again use a different translation to get you away from your "magical" word:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
There is no "manifestation" here. It is a simple translation of the verse.
The Spirit gives to each person a unique way of serving others. He does that with every believer. It does not involve the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Please understand that. Why not read the chapter in that translation. You need to clear your head of some misconceptions caused by words you don't fully understand.
--What is listed are not "manifestations." You are wrong.
What is listed are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are miraculous gifts.
You have a wrong idea, a wrong concept of the meaning of "manifestation."
--Tongues is a gift, the gift of languages.

The Holy Spirit gave them the utterance. They were manifesting what the Holy Spirit gave them to manifest.

"utterance and manifestation" Big words that you get hung up on.
"The Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak (that is utterance). They were demonstrating what the gift of the Holy Spirit (languages) that God had given to them.

Act 2:4 The Holy Spirit took control of everyone, and they began speaking whatever languages the Spirit let them speak. (CEV)
--No utterance in this translation so it is easier for you to understand. They spoke in actual languages. God gave them languages that they were able to speak in. That is what the verse says and means. When you put your own and special meanings to specific words in the Bible you are the one that is adding to the Word of God, and that is what you are doing with words like "utterance," "manifestation," etc. If it helps use a translation that uses simpler English.

YOu have yet to answer my question! You avoid it! Why? Because if you answer it correctly it would stop your theory in its track!

WHY DID THEY HAVE TO PRAY FOR THE INTERPRETATION IF THEY KNEW THE LANGUAGE???

I have answered this question many times.
It was specific to the Corinthian church.
There were always two language groups.
Tongues was a real language and had to have purpose. If there were people from a different language group there the opportunity to use the gift of tongues may present itself (but maybe not). If so then there would be a need for an interpreter to interpret back into Greek, the language that everyone spoke. If he was speaking in Spanish (for the sake of a few Spanish people), an interpreter would be needed to interpret the message back into Greek for the rest of the congregation.
Corinth was a major city on a major trade route with access to many different people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

 

[awaken]

I have given you the purpose of the gift of languages from the Bible.
What doesn't match up. The only thing that doesn't match up is the meaning that you want to force into the Bible, such as the speaking of gibberish which you do. If you believe they are actual languages then tell me what languages have you spoken in.

1. Tongues are for a sign to authenticate the apostles and their message (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4).
2. Tongues are for a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21)
3. Tongues was a revelatory gift which would cease when the revelation would be complete (1Cor.13:8).
4. Tongues was a gift given to the church as all the gifts were, and never for private use.

You left out speaking to God/ giving thanks/praying in the spirit...
#1 Tongues was NOT JUST TO authenticate the apostles! Others than the apostles spoke in tongues!
#2. I have already explained this on previous threads.
#3 They will cease when we see face to face and we know as we are known vs. 12..context context!
#4 They were given to the believers! How do we build ourselves up if they are not for private use? As Jude says...Explain how it is wrong to pray privately?

This is where the correction was needed in the Church. They were thinking of their own edification "when they came together" (1 C0r. 14:26) rather than the edification of the whole assembley (1 Cor. 14:3-4, 12,17, 26) The "more excellent way" (1 Cor. 12:31) was to motivated by "love" for their fellow saints.

NOt for our selfish desires (being blessed "out of our socks," being built up (Jude 1:20-21) edified in Christ, speaking mysteries. Doing "well, but the other (the church assembly) is not edified." 1 Cor. 14:17) (other tongued, a foreigner) It is to covet (be zealous for) the "best gifts." (the gift that needed for edification for that time) The context is moving together and not in competition. This is confirmed by the next chapter "Follow after charity, and desire spirtual gifts." (1 Cor. 14:1) Why would Paul say to "desire spiritual gifts" if "love" is the only thing needed" The balance is to have both!

I will address the other later...

 

[awaken]

Translate-To change into another language to explain in other words
Interprete-It can mean to translate but goes a little deeper... to explain or illuminate what others have said.

No. I have explained this to you over and over again. The gift of languages is a gift of the Holy Spirit. You get hung up on these larger and older words and then attach your own unique meanings to them. Then you have changed the meaning of the Bible. So I will once again use a different translation to get you away from your "magical" word:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
There is no "manifestation" here. It is a simple translation of the verse.
The Spirit gives to each person a unique way of serving others. He does that with every believer. It does not involve the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Please understand that. Why not read the chapter in that translation. You need to clear your head of some misconceptions caused by words you don't fully understand.
--What is listed are not "manifestations." You are wrong.
What is listed are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are miraculous gifts.
You have a wrong idea, a wrong concept of the meaning of "manifestation."
--Tongues is a gift, the gift of languages.

The bold seem to contradict each other????
The gift given in Acts 2 is the Holy Spirit! With the Holy Spirit these gifts are manifested for the good of all! (Maybe that will be plain enough)!
To make clear one point that you seem to contradict above...the manifestations/gifts (what every you want to call them/just don't miss this point) ARE SUPERNATURAL MIRACULOUS..CAN NOT BE DONE WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT!

"utterance and manifestation" Big words that you get hung up on.
"The Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak (that is utterance). They were demonstrating what the gift of the Holy Spirit (languages) that God had given to them.

NO, I am not hung up on them...you just don't like them because they put light on your wrong interpretations! The HOly Spirit was being manifested by tongues. It is the HOly Spirit that gives the utterance..it is very plain! So lets get passed this!

Act 2:4 The Holy Spirit took control of everyone, and they began speaking whatever languages the Spirit let them speak. (CEV)
--No utterance in this translation so it is easier for you to understand. They spoke in actual languages. God gave them languages that they were able to speak in. That is what the verse says and means. When you put your own and special meanings to specific words in the Bible you are the one that is adding to the Word of God, and that is what you are doing with words like "utterance," "manifestation," etc. If it helps use a translation that uses simpler English.

I have always said they were a language! Just a language the speaker himself did not learn or understand himself. God gave the HOly Spirit and the Holy Spirit is being manifested through the disciples in tongues in Acts 2. The KJV is clear on that!

I have answered this question many times.
It was specific to the Corinthian church.

He addressed the Corinthian church just like he did Ephesians etc...but they apply to us today! We can benefit from all the correction stated in Corinthians!

There were always two language groups.

That is irrevelant! The purpose of tongues is to magnify/praise God. Look at the first two examples of tongues in Acts..both were evidence that they were filled/baptized with the Holy Spirit and "We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" "They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." Tongues were used to glorify and praise God. It is an expression of supernatual worship and praise. The Holy Spirit is given to glorify God (John 16:13-14).

Tongues was a real language and had to have purpose. If there were people from a different language group there the opportunity to use the gift of tongues may present itself (but maybe not). If so then there would be a need for an interpreter to interpret back into Greek, the language that everyone spoke. If he was speaking in Spanish (for the sake of a few Spanish people), an interpreter would be needed to interpret the message back into Greek for the rest of the congregation.
Corinth was a major city on a major trade route with access to many different people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

NO, You are dancing around and avoiding the direct question!
Again, Why did God tell the person himself to pray for the interpretation? Paul was speaking to the one praying in the spirit..the one that did not understand the language or the interpretation of what he was saying! Paul told that person to pray for the interpretation!

vs. 13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in tongues pray that he may interpret."

If I am praying in the spirit (tongues) Paul is telling me to pray also for the interpretation. If I knew the language I would not need to pray for the interpretation. If I understood what I was praying (meaning) then why is Paul telling is to pray for the interpretation?
Very simple question..would you like the answer since you have danced around it so many times?

HE TELLS US TO PRAY FOR THE INTERPRETATION BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT LANGUAGE OR THE MEANING OF WHAT WE ARE SAYING.

You keep insisting on me proving to you that I should know the language I speak in. Nowhere in scriputes does it say that! Here it says just the opposite!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I'll say one thing for Awaken and DHK: They have stamina! :laugh:

 

[DHK]

You left out speaking to God/ giving thanks/praying in the spirit...

It is not there. It is not a purpose of tongues.

#1 Tongues was NOT JUST TO authenticate the apostles! Others than the apostles spoke in tongues!

I am giving you a list. Can't you see that. This is one of the purposes; one of many.

#2. I have already explained this on previous threads.
#3 They will cease when we see face to face and we know as we are known vs. 12..context context!

I am afraid that you are the one that ignores the context, which is revelation. You also ignore the Greek which doesn't fit your interpretation.
You force your meaning into the passage when it is unwarranted and goes contrary to what Paul is saying.

#4 They were given to the believers! How do we build ourselves up if they are not for private use? As Jude says...Explain how it is wrong to pray privately?

1. Jude says nothing about tongues; not one word.
2. The gift of languages was given to believers for the church to edify other believers in the church. Not one word is ever said about the use of other languages in prayer privately. Never!
3. They are given to edify the local church, not for selfish use of the believer. You don't find that in the Bible. It is not there. The gift of healing is not practiced at home privately, and neither is the gift of languages. There is no purpose in it. Does God need to know you have the ability to speak in another language? Ludicrous!

This is where the correction was needed in the Church. They were thinking of their own edification "when they came together" (1 C0r. 14:26) rather than the edification of the whole assembley (1 Cor. 14:3-4, 12,17, 26) The "more excellent way" (1 Cor. 12:31) was to motivated by "love" for their fellow saints.

Yes, it was always in the confines of the assembly; the local church; never at home; never privately. So why insist that it was?

NOt for our selfish desires (being blessed "out of our socks," being built up (Jude 1:20-21) edified in Christ, speaking mysteries. Doing "well, but the other (the church assembly) is not edified."

If you are not edified don't do it. There is nothing about tongues in Jude. Not one word. Speaking mysteries--The cows understand as much as the church does; don't do it.

1 Cor. 14:17) (other tongued, a foreigner) It is to covet (be zealous for) the "best gifts."

1Cor.12:28 Tongues was the least important of all the gifts. The most important was love.

(the gift that needed for edification for that time) The context is moving together and not in competition.

Which tongues did not do. Therefore Paul valued prophesy over tongues. Read chapter 14. Prophesy is always valued more than tongues. Tongues only cause chaos.

This is confirmed by the next chapter "Follow after charity, and desire spirtual gifts." (1 Cor. 14:1) Why would Paul say to "desire spiritual gifts" if "love" is the only thing needed" The balance is to have both!

He wasn't speaking about tongues. In the list given tongues was the least important. He said desire the greater gifts not the lesser gifts. Note that they are listed in order of importance in 12:28,29.

 

[awaken]

It is not there. It is not a purpose of tongues.

Well, as usual you have ignored most of chapter 14 to prove your theory!

I am giving you a list. Can't you see that. This is one of the purposes; one of many.

...and I have proven half of your list invalid because of contradicting scriptures. If they were used to authenticate the apostles then your belief would have to also include that it authenticates the baptism in the Holy Spirit!

I am afraid that you are the one that ignores the context, which is revelation. You also ignore the Greek which doesn't fit your interpretation.
You force your meaning into the passage when it is unwarranted and goes contrary to what Paul is saying.

1. Jude says nothing about tongues; not one word.

because you miss Pauls explanation of praying in the spirit! Jude also goes along with vs2 where he says it edifies the believer.

2. The gift of languages was given to believers for the church to edify other believers in the church. Not one word is ever said about the use of other languages in prayer privately. Never!

Prayer is prayer! Nowhere in scriptures does it say that you can not pray in private!

3. They are given to edify the local church, not for selfish use of the believer. You don't find that in the Bible. It is not there. The gift of healing is not practiced at home privately, and neither is the gift of languages. There is no purpose in it. Does God need to know you have the ability to speak in another language? Ludicrous!

These gifts are used to build up the church...they can be used anywhere the Holy Spirit wants them too! You limit them to justify your theory! I explained that part of Corinthians was correcting the edification of self in the assembly! THat was part of the correction! But Nowhere does it say it is not used to edify the believer as well as those around. Jude tells us to edify (build ourselves up)! So there is nothing wrong with building our faith up.

Yes, it was always in the confines of the assembly; the local church; never at home; never privately. So why insist that it was?

I have explained this over and over!

If you are not edified don't do it. There is nothing about tongues in Jude. Not one word. Speaking mysteries--The cows understand as much as the church does; don't do it.

Praying in the spirit is tongues according to Paul! vs.14. of Corinthians!

1Cor.12:28 Tongues was the least important of all the gifts. The most important was love.

I explained Love in context with the gifts! The only reason prophesy is greater than tongues is when it is not interpreted!

Which tongues did not do. Therefore Paul valued prophesy over tongues. Read chapter 14. Prophesy is always valued more than tongues. Tongues only cause chaos.

Tongues is egual to prophesy in the assembly if there is an interpretation. If you read chapter 12 ALL Gifts are important in the body! You are the only one that says we do not need tongues..which chapter 12 speaks against..also chapter 14 where it says forbid not!

 

[DHK]

Translate-To change into another language to explain in other words
Interprete-It can mean to translate but goes a little deeper... to explain or illuminate what others have said.

You are simply adding to the definition. To interpret and translate are the same thing. It means to go from one language to another. The KJV says to interpret. An interpreter could not add, or explain what the original person was saying. He could only interpret.

The bold seem to contradict each other????

Let me quote 1Cor.12:7 again for you. You are still confused.

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
--Now let me repeat a bit more clearly what I said.
The verse means that each of us can serve, through the Holy Spirit, others, in the way that God has equipped us to serve Him. It does not necessarily involve supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, though in the first century it may have. But it didn't have to, and it doesn't now.
The word "manifest" really does confuse you.

The gift given in Acts 2 is the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit is not a gift and never was a gift. To say so is almost blasphemous.
The Holy Spirit is God; the third person of the triune Godhead.
He was present at Creation.
He always was, is, and always will be.
He is a person, not a force like electricity.
He is omnipresent, and therefore everywhere at all times.
As he was present at creation, he was present at all times in all places throughout the OT, and is in every place at all times throughout the present age--in every nation, in every generation, in every part of the world. He is omnipresent.
To say that this Holy divine person, God Himself, is simply a gift, is blasphemy!! Why do you demean God so??

With the Holy Spirit these gifts are manifested for the good of all! (Maybe that will be plain enough)!

Jesus gave a direct command to his apostles:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [/quote]
Read the entire chapter. They were at Olivet and were to proceed to Jerusalem. There they were to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them and to fill them, not that the Holy Spirit was absent in any way. They then would receive the power of the Holy Spirit which was demonstrated more in the preaching of Peter than in anything else that happened that day.

Here is what Acts 2:4 says:
Act 2:4 The Holy Spirit took control of everyone, and they began speaking whatever languages the Spirit let them speak.
It is not the KJV. It is the CEV. "The began speaking whatever languages the Spirit allowed them to speak."
--No "utterance" here. That is a confusing word to you. No manifestation here. Another confusing word. The Holy Spirit filled them, took control, and because of that they began to speak in the languages that the Holy Spirit gave them. That is what happened. The Scripture spells this out very clearly.

To make clear one point that you seem to contradict above...the manifestations/gifts (what every you want to call them/just don't miss this point) ARE SUPERNATURAL MIRACULOUS..CAN NOT BE DONE WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Manifestation does not equal gift!
There are many ways that the Holy Spirit may manifest Himself--totally without any gifts at all. Look again:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
--No mention of gifts here. This is the verse that uses manifestation. It doesn't necessarily involve gifts. I pray in the Holy Spirit; witness in the Holy Spirit, study my Bible with the aid of the Holy Spirit, yield myself to the Holy Spirit every day. That has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are not for today.
However miracles can be imitated by Satan. Have you given thought to that?
What does Jesus say:
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

NO, I am not hung up on them...you just don't like them because they put light on your wrong interpretations! The HOly Spirit was being manifested by tongues. It is the HOly Spirit that gives the utterance..it is very plain! So lets get passed this!

"Utterance" is the ability to speak. The Holy Spirit was not being manifested. That is blasphemy when you think about it.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit were being manifested which have ceased.
The gift of languages was being displayed in such a way that every man knew what was being spoken because that is what he heard. He heard them speak in their language. Others, seeing these simple Galileans speak in all these different languages mocked them and said that they were drunk. They saw and heard them speak in other languages, the ability to speak in definite languages.

I have always said they were a language! Just a language the speaker himself did not learn or understand himself. God gave the HOly Spirit and the Holy Spirit is being manifested through the disciples in tongues in Acts 2. The KJV is clear on that!

The Holy Spirit is God. He is not manifested. His works are manifested. There is a big difference and you better learn it before you continue to blaspheme the name of God.
God did not give God. God, the Holy Spirit was already there. God gave the power of the Holy Spirit, the filling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was, is and always will be. He is God. God did not give God.
The work of the Holy Spirit was manifested (displayed) by means of the disciples speaking in different languages.

 

[DHK]

He addressed the Corinthian church just like he did Ephesians etc...but they apply to us today! We can benefit from all the correction stated in Corinthians!

The conditions of the Corinthian church do not necessarily apply today.
1. The gifts have ceased.
2. The apostles have died.
3. The canon of Scripture is complete.
4. Judgment has already come on the Jews.

There were the purposes of the gift of languages. They have been fulfilled. There is no more need of them. Besides that, you have no evidence that this Biblical gift is being practiced today, have you? It isn't practiced in your church is it? If so, what languages do they speak in, and for what purpose?

That is irrevelant! The purpose of tongues is to magnify/praise God.

No it isn't.
It was a sign to the Jews. 1Cor.14:21.
It was a sign to the apostles 2Cor.12:12; Heb. 2:3,4.
It was a revelatory gift for a temporary period of time, now ceased. 1Cor.13:8.
--That was its purpose.

Look at the first two examples of tongues in Acts..both were evidence that they were filled/baptized with the Holy Spirit and "We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" "They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." Tongues were used to glorify and praise God. It is an expression of supernatual worship and praise. The Holy Spirit is given to glorify God (John 16:13-14).

All three times there were Jews present. It was a sign to the Jews.
All three times there were apostles present. It was a sign of apostolic authority.
It was for a temporary period of time while revelation was still being written.

NO, You are dancing around and avoiding the direct question!
Again, Why did God tell the person himself to pray for the interpretation?

Because there was no interpreter.
Because that was the way that he could restrain himself and keep silence.
Because he was not to cause commotion in the church be speaking out in a language that was mysterious to all but him.
Because there was to be order in the church.
Because he, more than once, was told to be silent.

Paul was speaking to the one praying in the spirit..the one that did not understand the language or the interpretation of what he was saying! Paul told that person to pray for the interpretation!

Look at your nonsense. He understood what he was saying, and that is why he could pray. It was a gift of languages. If he couldn't understand he wouldn't be able to pray. This was a rebuke for him to keep silent. He could understand.
The reason he needed an interpreter, was because there were always two language groups (such as Spanish and English). The interpreter was for the other language group. If an interpreter was not present he would have to do it himself.

vs. 13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in tongues pray that he may interpret."

1Co 14:13 When we speak languages that others don't know, we should pray for the power to explain what we mean. (CEV)
--That is much more clear isn't it?
Usually another person did that.

If I am praying in the spirit (tongues) Paul is telling me to pray also for the interpretation. If I knew the language I would not need to pray for the interpretation.

Yes you would. See the above verse.

If I understood what I was praying (meaning) then why is Paul telling is to pray for the interpretation?

Because it would not be for your benefit but for the benefit of those there that do not understand what you are saying.

Very simple question..would you like the answer since you have danced around it so many times?

HE TELLS US TO PRAY FOR THE INTERPRETATION BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT LANGUAGE OR THE MEANING OF WHAT WE ARE SAYING.

You keep insisting on me proving to you that I should know the language I speak in. Nowhere in scriputes does it say that! Here it says just the opposite!

Look the gift of languages means the gift of languages means the gift of languages. How can you get around that? It means that you have a gift to understand and speak in another language that God has given you as a gift.
The interpretation was for a second language group.
I have explained this over and over again.
Otherwise there would be no benefit for anyone to speak in tongues in this present generation, if everyone in your church speaks English. Only if some other language group comes in and you speak to them in their foreign language then someone has to translate back to English for the sake of others.

However the gift is not for today.
There are no apostles.
There are no Jews.
The revelation of God, the Bible has been completed.
The gift his not for today.
Nowhere can you demonstrate that this biblical gift is being used in a biblical gift. Why pretend that it is?

 

[awaken]

You are simply adding to the definition. To interpret and translate are the same thing. It means to go from one language to another. The KJV says to interpret. An interpreter could not add, or explain what the original person was saying. He could only interpret.
Let me quote 1Cor.12:7 again for you. You are still confused.

Wrong! The speaker does not know what he is saying, period! Unless the Holy Spirit gives the interpretation...MEANING! THe interpretation is just as supernatural as tongue itself!

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
--Now let me repeat a bit more clearly what I said.
The verse means that each of us can serve, through the Holy Spirit, others, in the way that God has equipped us to serve Him. It does not necessarily involve supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, though in the first century it may have. But it didn't have to, and it doesn't now.
The word "manifest" really does confuse you.
The Holy Spirit is not a gift and never was a gift. To say so is almost blasphemous.

Blaspheme is when you give credit to the devil for something God does!

In Context of Cor. 12-14 is supernatural spiritual gifts! Keep it in context!

The Holy Spirit is God; the third person of the triune Godhead.
Jesus gave a direct command to his apostles:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

THe promise was the coming of the Holy Spirit! He is what they received!

Read the entire chapter. They were at Olivet and were to proceed to Jerusalem. There they were to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them and to fill them, not that the Holy Spirit was absent in any way. They then would receive the power of the Holy Spirit which was demonstrated more in the preaching of Peter than in anything else that happened that day.

So now you are saying that they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit that day?

Here is what Acts 2:4 says:
Act 2:4 The Holy Spirit took control of everyone, and they began speaking whatever languages the Spirit let them speak.
It is not the KJV. It is the CEV. "The began speaking whatever languages the Spirit allowed them to speak."
--No "utterance" here. That is a confusing word to you. No manifestation here. Another confusing word. The Holy Spirit filled them, took control, and because of that they began to speak in the languages that the Holy Spirit gave them. That is what happened. The Scripture spells this out very clearly.
Manifestation does not equal gift!
There are many ways that the Holy Spirit may manifest Himself--totally without any gifts at all. Look again:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others. [1Cor.12:7]
--No mention of gifts here. This is the verse that uses manifestation. It doesn't necessarily involve gifts. I pray in the Holy Spirit; witness in the Holy Spirit, study my Bible with the aid of the Holy Spirit, yield myself to the Holy Spirit every day. That has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are not for today.
However miracles can be imitated by Satan. Have you given thought to that?
What does Jesus say:
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"Utterance" is the ability to speak. The Holy Spirit was not being manifested. That is blasphemy when you think about it.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit were being manifested which have ceased.
The gift of languages was being displayed in such a way that every man knew what was being spoken because that is what he heard. He heard them speak in their language. Others, seeing these simple Galileans speak in all these different languages mocked them and said that they were drunk. They saw and heard them speak in other languages, the ability to speak in definite languages.
The Holy Spirit is God. He is not manifested. His works are manifested. There is a big difference and you better learn it before you continue to blaspheme the name of God.
God did not give God. God, the Holy Spirit was already there. God gave the power of the Holy Spirit, the filling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was, is and always will be. He is God. God did not give God.
The work of the Holy Spirit was manifested (displayed) by means of the disciples speaking in different languages.

So the power of the Holy Spirit was manifested in the disciples! How do you separate the power and the Holy Spirit? Yes! God is manifested all over the world! In everything! But the day of Pentecost He manifested himself through the disciples by speaking in tongues!

 

[awaken]

The conditions of the Corinthian church do not necessarily apply today.
1. The gifts have ceased.
2. The apostles have died.
3. The canon of Scripture is complete.
4. Judgment has already come on the Jews.

There were the purposes of the gift of languages. They have been fulfilled. There is no more need of them. Besides that, you have no evidence that this Biblical gift is being practiced today, have you? It isn't practiced in your church is it? If so, what languages do they speak in, and for what purpose?
No it isn't.
It was a sign to the Jews. 1Cor.14:21.
It was a sign to the apostles 2Cor.12:12; Heb. 2:3,4.
It was a revelatory gift for a temporary period of time, now ceased. 1Cor.13:8.
--That was its purpose.
All three times there were Jews present. It was a sign to the Jews.
All three times there were apostles present. It was a sign of apostolic authority.
It was for a temporary period of time while revelation was still being written.
Because there was no interpreter.
Because that was the way that he could restrain himself and keep silence.
Because he was not to cause commotion in the church be speaking out in a language that was mysterious to all but him.
Because there was to be order in the church.
Because he, more than once, was told to be silent.
Look at your nonsense. He understood what he was saying, and that is why he could pray. It was a gift of languages. If he couldn't understand he wouldn't be able to pray. This was a rebuke for him to keep silent. He could understand.
The reason he needed an interpreter, was because there were always two language groups (such as Spanish and English). The interpreter was for the other language group. If an interpreter was not present he would have to do it himself.
1Co 14:13 When we speak languages that others don't know, we should pray for the power to explain what we mean. (CEV)
--That is much more clear isn't it?
Usually another person did that.
Yes you would. See the above verse.
Because it would not be for your benefit but for the benefit of those there that do not understand what you are saying.
Look the gift of languages means the gift of languages means the gift of languages. How can you get around that? It means that you have a gift to understand and speak in another language that God has given you as a gift.
The interpretation was for a second language group.
I have explained this over and over again.
Otherwise there would be no benefit for anyone to speak in tongues in this present generation, if everyone in your church speaks English. Only if some other language group comes in and you speak to them in their foreign language then someone has to translate back to English for the sake of others.

However the gift is not for today.
There are no apostles.
There are no Jews.
The revelation of God, the Bible has been completed.
The gift his not for today.
Nowhere can you demonstrate that this biblical gift is being used in a biblical gift. Why pretend that it is?

Since you did not address anything different! I will not address this post! We have gone over and over the same thing for days!
Stay in your unbelief and teach others to stay in theirs...that is between you and God!

 

[DHK]

Wrong! The speaker does not know what he is saying, period! Unless the Holy Spirit gives the interpretation...MEANING! THe interpretation is just as supernatural as tongue itself!

Your definition of interpretation, whether by a human or by the Holy Spirit, is still wrong. Interpretation is "translating" exactly what was said; not saying something different. If the interpreter is saying something different then we know he is not of God. He is a false teacher/prophet. Don't listen to him. The Holy Spirit will be accurate in his translation/interpretation. It is quite evident you have never had need of one.
I have done a limited amount of translational work.
I have had need of an interpreter/translator many, many times.
They have been called by either name for they do the same work.

However, in Acts 2, the gift was the gift of languages. He knew what he was saying because he had the gift of languages. He didn't need an interpreter because everyone there was a Jew. It was a sign to the Jews. All that spoke were apostles. The tongues/languages authenticated the apostles.

Blaspheme is when you give credit to the devil for something God does!

No, it is insulting God in any way. Look it up.

In Context of Cor. 12-14 is supernatural spiritual gifts! Keep it in context!

That may be true. But not every verse, in chapter 12 refers to supernatural gifts. It is speaking of the members of the local church--the body. Study the entire chapter, not just the verses you like.

THe promise was the coming of the Holy Spirit! He is what they received!

The Holy Spirit is God, the Creator. He had been with mankind since creation. He was there with David. David sang in the Spirit. His music was so Spiriit-filled and powerful that it drove the demons out of Saul.

So now you are saying that they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit that day?

Did I say that?

So the power of the Holy Spirit was manifested in the disciples! How do you separate the power and the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is the source of that power.
Satan can give power too. Do you know that witch-doctors have power?
Do you know who Jannes and Jambres are? And that they also exercised power in the Bible?

Yes! God is manifested all over the world! In everything! But the day of Pentecost He manifested himself through the disciples by speaking in tongues!

And now the Day of Pentecost is gone. It was a historical event, and will never be repeated again.

 

[awaken]

And now the Day of Pentecost is gone. It was a historical event, and will never be repeated again.

So was the crucifiction ..never to be repeated again! But the results of that will go into eternity!
The results of the Day of Pentecost will go until the church is complete and presented to our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming! THe Holy Spirit is not finished or has he left us!

 

[DHK]

So was the crucifiction ..never to be repeated again! But the results of that will go into eternity!
The results of the Day of Pentecost will go until the church is complete and presented to our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming! THe Holy Spirit is not finished or has he left us!

The result of the cross is salvation to all who believe.
The result of the Day of Pentecost is the indwelling of the Spirit to those who have believed in Christ.

Pentecost has nothing to do with the ongoing of the gift of tongues. The miraculous events that happened at Pentecost, as well as the miraculous events that happened at the cross were all historical events.
At the cross:
The veil was rent in two.
A darkness covered the earth.
An earthquake.
The resurrection itself.

At Pentecost:
the sound of a mighty rushing wind.
Cloven tongues of fire.
Speaking in other languages.

These events have all passed. They were historical. You won't see them again.

 

[awaken]

The result of the cross is salvation to all who believe.
The result of the Day of Pentecost is the indwelling of the Spirit to those who have believed in Christ.

Pentecost has nothing to do with the ongoing of the gift of tongues. The miraculous events that happened at Pentecost, as well as the miraculous events that happened at the cross were all historical events.
At the cross:
The veil was rent in two.
A darkness covered the earth.
An earthquake.
The resurrection itself.

At Pentecost:
the sound of a mighty rushing wind.
Cloven tongues of fire.
Speaking in other languages.

These events have all passed. They were historical. You won't see them again.

Wow! It is amazing how many scriptures you have to ignore to stay in your unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and will be here until the completion of His bride!

 

[DHK]

Wow! It is amazing how many scriptures you have to ignore to stay in your unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and will be here until the completion of His bride!

Your conclusion makes no sense.
If I were describing to you the inside of a house, would you conclude that I don't believe in dogs??

The above is the kind of logic you are demonstrating.

Look at my post. Here is my concluding statement:
These events have all passed. They were historical. You won't see them again.

I said nothing of "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
I listed the miraculous events that happened at the cross and at Pentecost that will never occur again. They are historical events.
For example, the veil was rent in two. Do you really expect that to happen again, awaken??

 

[awaken]

Your conclusion makes no sense.
If I were describing to you the inside of a house, would you conclude that I don't believe in dogs??

The above is the kind of logic you are demonstrating.

Look at my post. Here is my concluding statement:
These events have all passed. They were historical. You won't see them again.

I said nothing of "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
I listed the miraculous events that happened at the cross and at Pentecost that will never occur again. They are historical events.
For example, the veil was rent in two. Do you really expect that to happen again, awaken??

My conclusion stated that the Day of Pentecost like the crucifiction might only be a one time event...but an eternal and continued affects on the believers! Where you limit and cut off the work of the Holy Spirit...I do not!