Pastor Francis Chan

[Thomas Helwys]

The things you mention are very debatable.
Calvinism has been debated ad infinitum on this board, and without any resolution, and there never will be.
There are many Baptists that believe that the gifts have not ceased.
There are evangelicals (not Baptists) that believe in a different mode of baptism.
Creation is a hotly contested issue, not the belief in it, but rather whether one is Old Earth or Young Earth.

The above are debatable issues among believers.
The eternal damnation of the wicked is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity that has never been up for debate.
We believe in the eternal life for the righteous and eternal damnation for the wicked. I have seen that in every Baptist statement of faith I have ever read. I would not ever see that up for debate, ever.

Church history being one of the concentrations in my doctorate, I would have to disagree with you. And there is one group of Baptists, although small, who hold the seemingly contradictory tenets of 5-point Calvinism and Universalism.

 

[DHK]

Church history being one of the concentrations in my doctorate, I would have to disagree with you. And there is one group of Baptists, although small, who hold the seemingly contradictory tenets of 5-point Calvinism and Universalism.

I am not a Calvinist and I don't believe this has anything to do with Calvinism. Belief in hell is a vital doctrine.
Belief in universalism is a heresy.

In church history we had the particular Baptists which were Calvinistic, and the general Baptists which were not.
Both believed in the eternal damnation of the wicked.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am not a Calvinist and I don't believe this has anything to do with Calvinism. Belief in hell is a vital doctrine.
Belief in universalism is a heresy.

In church history we had the particular Baptists which were Calvinistic, and the general Baptists which were not.
Both believed in the eternal damnation of the wicked.

FYI, I didn't say you were Calvinist.

The small group of Baptists I was referring to are the Primitive Baptist Universalists, often referred to as the "no-hellers".

 

[DHK]

FYI, I didn't say you were Calvinist.

The small group of Baptists I was referring to are the Primitive Baptist Universalists, often referred to as the "no-hellers".

OK, that is a sect in itself, and most mainline Baptists probably wouldn't associate with them because of their doctrinal aberrations.

 

[annsni]

Don't worry EWF! I do believe that your wife will enjoy Chan's book. Which one is she reading?

 

[steaver]

The above are debatable issues among believers.
The eternal damnation of the wicked is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity that has never been up for debate.
We believe in the eternal life for the righteous and eternal damnation for the wicked. I have seen that in every Baptist statement of faith I have ever read. I would not ever see that up for debate, ever.

I'm not sure "eternal damnation" would necessarily exclude annihilation.

But back to Chan, It sounds as though you would reject anything this man has to preach or teach about simply because he waffles a bit on the issue of annihilation. That really doesn't sound like a fair judgment to me. Now if he said, as many do, there is no real hell, then I wouldn't give him any time on other subjects niether, even if he was right on in other areas. But that is a judgment call we all have to make, and i suppose answer for one day.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

OK, that is a sect in itself, and most mainline Baptists probably wouldn't associate with them because of their doctrinal aberrations.

And their view on hell is what makes them a "sect" in your mind, even though they are orthodox Primitive Baptists otherwise? IMO, it would take more than that one belief to make them a sect.

It's been a long time ago, but seems I can remember that what got this started was that a PB minister lost his son, he didn't know if the boy had accepted Jesus, and he couldn't reconcile the idea of a loving God punishing him forever in hell. I can understand how he felt, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[DHK]

And their view on hell is what makes them a "sect" in your mind, even though they are orthodox Primitive Baptists otherwise? IMO, it would take more than that one belief to make them a sect.

It's been a long time ago, but seems I can remember that what got this started was that a PB minister lost his son, he didn't know if the boy had accepted Jesus, and he couldn't reconcile the idea of a loving God punishing him forever in hell. I can understand how he felt, and I'll leave it at that.

I often use the word "sect" rather loosely for want of a better term, almost identical to "kinds." There are many different "kinds" of Baptists, or even sects. I don't always use it as synonymous with "cult." And I don't like the word "denomination" when speaking of Baptists because in essence they are not a denomination. So the word "sect" was not meant to be offensive, just practical.

I don't know about the salvation of some of my relatives either (who have already died). I have my doubts about their salvation, but ultimately their salvation is in God's hand. Maybe they did trust Christ before they died. I must leave that in God's hands. I will never know for sure. But I am not going to beat myself up about it, nor will I change my doctrine over it.

I know you believe that one could lose their salvation. There are Baptists that take that position, and I can live with that. But I have never known a Baptist to be a universalist. As one has said heaven would not be heaven if the likes of Hitler and Stalin were there to fellowship with. And God would not be just. Eternal life demands an eternal death for a just God.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I often use the word "sect" rather loosely for want of a better term, almost identical to "kinds." There are many different "kinds" of Baptists, or even sects. I don't always use it as synonymous with "cult." And I don't like the word "denomination" when speaking of Baptists because in essence they are not a denomination. So the word "sect" was not meant to be offensive, just practical.

I don't know about the salvation of some of my relatives either (who have already died). I have my doubts about their salvation, but ultimately their salvation is in God's hand. Maybe they did trust Christ before they died. I must leave that in God's hands. I will never know for sure. But I am not going to beat myself up about it, nor will I change my doctrine over it.

I know you believe that one could lose their salvation. There are Baptists that take that position, and I can live with that. But I have never known a Baptist to be a universalist. As one has said heaven would not be heaven if the likes of Hitler and Stalin were there to fellowship with. And God would not be just. Eternal life demands an eternal death for a just God.

Thank you for explaining.