Researching apostles...

[awaken]

I have heard many assumptions about the discontinuing apostles. Most say that they had a job and the power to carry it out, and then imply that this excludes anyone else from experiencing that power again.

I do not see Matthew 10 limiting the number of Jesus' disciples to twelve, or exclude anyone else from receiving the same authority. Others besides the Twelve certainly performed signs and wonders.

I see it the Holy Spirit job, not just the Twelve, making known to us what is of Jesus.

Mark 16 makes it plain that it is the believers that signs will follow not just the apostles.

Another observation from previous threads is the assumption of there are only going to be twelve seated in heaven so there are only 12. My question to them at this point is who is going to take that 12th seat? Matthias who took Judas place or Paul? What about the other apostles that are named in the New Testament?

Paul also makes it clear in I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6 that his apostleship is the same as that of Timothy and Silas.

Did Paul qualify for a place among the Twelve under the terms Peter laid out in Acts 1? Was Paul a follower of Jesus since John the Baptist?

The Twelve were a distinct group, but not the only apostles.

Jesus is not dead; he can continue to call apostles just like he does pastors and teachers. Paul said Jesus does this for the equipping of the saints.

I see it completely unbiblical for anyone to assume that Jesus is not callings out apostles today.

One last point…I have mentioned before…In Eph. 4:8-12 it says that it was after Jesus ascended up on high that he gave gifts unto men. Then he list those in vs. 11..apostles being one of them!

So we have the 12 named in Matt. 10.
Acts 14:14 we have Barnabas named as an apostle.
Andronicus and Junia are of note among the apostles in Rom. 16:7.
Paul calls Silvanus and Timothy (and himself) apostles in 1 Thess. 1:1;2:4-6.
Paul calls Apollus and himself an apostle in 1 Cor. 4:6-9.

 

[awaken]

It is hard to debate when the facts are laid out there so plain in scriptures!

This is an on going research. So if anyone has anything to add to it....please feel free!

 

[Revmitchell]

Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
Act 1:13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
Act 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Act 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,
Act 1:16 "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."
Act 1:18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Act 1:20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms, "'May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it'; and "'Let another take his office.'
Act 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Act 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Act 1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

There are several things we learn from this passage concerning Apostles:

1. Of the 11 remaining they understood a clear call from God to replace Judas (v.20;25)

2. The whole of the above passage assumes the Apostles were a very specific group and different than the average disciple. But especially (v.26)

3. That the qualification of being one of these Apostles was that they were a witness to the resurrection. In other words was there to see it themselves. (v.22)

4. This Apostle was chosen by God. (v.24)

After a careful consideration of the above list of 4 facts as found in scripture a reasonable person would see that no one alive today qualifies as an Apostle.

 

[awaken]

There are several things we learn from this passage concerning Apostles:

1. Of the 11 remaining they understood a clear call from God to replace Judas (v.20;25)

2. The whole of the above passage assumes the Apostles were a very specific group and different than the average disciple. But especially (v.26)

3. That the qualification of being one of these Apostles was that they were a witness to the resurrection. In other words was there to see it themselves. (v.22)

4. This Apostle was chosen by God. (v.24)

After a careful consideration of the above list of 4 facts as found in scripture a reasonable person would see that no one alive today qualifies as an Apostle.

So Paul is not one (part) of the 12?

 

[awaken]

After a careful consideration of the above list of 4 facts as found in scripture a reasonable person would see that no one alive today qualifies as an Apostle.

I will add that Matthias is part of the twelve! So what about the other apostles named in scripture? Paul being one of them!

How can Paul be an apostles if he did not witness the resurrection or was there since the baptism of John? If we are going to make these qualification that most claim...then Paul does not qualify!

Don't give the exception to the rule! If exceptions can be made for Paul ...then exceptions can be made for all that God calls!

 

[Revmitchell]

I will add that Matthias is part of the twelve! So what about the other apostles named in scripture? Paul being one of them!

How can Paul be an apostles if he did not witness the resurrection or was there since the baptism of John? If we are going to make these qualification that most claim...then Paul does not qualify!

Don't give the exception to the rule! If exceptions can be made for Paul ...then exceptions can be made for all that God calls!

Paul did witness the resurrection of Jesus as he was called directly by Jesus.

 

[awaken]

Paul did witness the resurrection of Jesus as he was called directly by Jesus.

So are you saying that God can not call apostles today as he did Paul? Can you show me a scripture to support that ?

 

[Revmitchell]

So are you saying that God can not call apostles today as he did Paul? Can you show me a scripture to support that ?

Your strawman is not helpful. Show me in scripture where men today have been called like Paul was.

 

[DHK]

So are you saying that God can not call apostles today as he did Paul? Can you show me a scripture to support that ?

That is a logical fallacy.
The onus is on you to prove that he does.
We have already proved that:
1. The 12th office of the apostle was replaced by Judas, and the decision was never questioned or revoked by any. It stood. Matthias was the 12th apostle.
2. There will be 12 and only 12 names written on the foundations of the walls of the New Jerusalem: the 12 names of the 12 apostles.
3. These were all witnesses of the resurrection during that time, the time of the Apostolic Age.
4. The apostolic age has now ended. It ended when the apostles died. That is a given. I know you want to go against the very definition of this age, but it doesn't work that way.
5. The only exception to this was the apostle Paul, and he is the only exception. He saw the risen Lord:
a. at the time of his conversion on the road to Damascus.
b. he communed with him for three years in Arabia before he even went to the apostles.
c. Christ appeared to him many times after that, as he did in Corinth, the Macedonian vision, and on the way to Rome.
d. Paul was accepted by the apostles as an apostle chosen specifically by God, for the work of an apostle. (Others were not).
e. He was an Apostle to the Gentiles.
f. He introduces himself in his letters as an apostle (Romans 1:1).
g. He admits that he is an apostle, but "one born out of due time," because he persecuted the church of God.
h. We find him listed with the apostles in 1Cor.15 along with the other witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

No, Christ is not calling others out as apostles today. The witnesses to his resurrection are in 1Cor.15. They must be among that number.

 

[awaken]

Your strawman is not helpful. Show me in scripture where men today have been called like Paul was.

HOw can I show in scripture what is not recorded? Those called today will not be recorded!

 

[Revmitchell]

HOw can I show in scripture what is not recorded? Those called today will not be recorded!

Nobody is called today in the way any of them were called then. Not pastors or anyone else. So if the qualification is that you would have to have physically sen Jesus as did the 12 and Paul then no one today is qualified. No one today is a witness to the resurrection except by the testimony of the word of God. And that fails the qualification.

 

[awaken]

Nobody is called today in the way any of them were called then. Not pastors or anyone else. So if the qualification is that you would have to have physically sen Jesus as did the 12 and Paul then no one today is qualified. No one today is a witness to the resurrection except by the testimony of the word of God. And that fails the qualification.

Where does it say you have to physically see Jesus? Did Paul see Jesus? NO! He saw "no man"..he just saw a light and heard Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does it say you have to physically see Jesus? Did Paul see Jesus? NO! He saw "no man"..he just saw a light and heard Jesus!

the risen Christ appeared to james and paul, and both were converted to serve Him...

you CANNOT claim modern day apostleship unless you have had a commissioning from the risen Chrsit, that he actually appeared to send you forth..

has that happened to you, or to ANY today that you know of?

 

[awaken]

the risen Christ appeared to james and paul, and both were converted to serve Him...

you CANNOT claim modern day apostleship unless you have had a commissioning from the risen Chrsit, that he actually appeared to send you forth..

has that happened to you, or to ANY today that you know of?

I do not know any apostles personally! I am researching this out! I was taught as you are teaching now (but I was also taught the manifestation of the Holy Spirit had ceased too)...I want to know from scriptures what it says about apostles. So if you are going to make a point at least put down your scripture reference to support your stand!

Paul saw NO MAN..just a bright light. Nowhere does it say that God will not appear or call anyone else today! As a matter of fact Eph. 4 says that they (gifts of apostles, prophets, evangalist, pastors, teachers ) were given after Jesus ascended into heaven. So apostles were called out or given to the church after He ascended.
WHY?
For the perfecting of the saints..are we perfect yet?
For the work of the ministry...is the work over?
For the edifying of the body of Christ...do we still need to be build up?
UNTIL...
We all come into the unity of the faith...are we in unity??
The knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man...are we perfect now?
THe measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...are we there yet?

 

[Revmitchell]

Where does it say you have to physically see Jesus? Did Paul see Jesus? NO! He saw "no man"..he just saw a light and heard Jesus!

Pathetic...........

 

[DHK]

Where does it say you have to physically see Jesus? Did Paul see Jesus? NO! He saw "no man"..he just saw a light and heard Jesus!

Will you admit ignorance to the Scriptures?
Or are you calling Paul a liar?
Which one?

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

[awaken]

Pathetic...........

THat is your only comment because what I stated is true! You can not prove FROM SCRIPTURES that God does not call apostles today!

 

[awaken]

Will you admit ignorance to the Scriptures?
Or are you calling Paul a liar?
Which one?

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Acts said he saw NO MAN...if he can appear to Paul in what ever form he wants...he can also appear to others that he calls!

 

[Revmitchell]

THat is your only comment because what I stated is true! You can not prove FROM SCRIPTURES that God does not call apostles today!

If that makes you feel better about your failed position then so be it. Your op has been debunked.

 

[TCassidy]

The answer seems obvious to me. There are the 12 Apostles who meet the criteria set by the bible. Accompanied Jesus from the beginning of His Ministry (His baptism) through the end of His Ministry (His Ascension) which includes being an eye-witness to His Resurrection and Resurrection Ministry.

There are 17 people called "apostle" (apostolos) in the New Testament, including Jesus Himself.

The bible makes it very clear that when using the term "Apostle" in a specific manner it is referring to the 12 and only the 12.

However, the Greek word "apostolos" is simply one of two Greek words in our New Testaments meaning "messenger." (The other being "aggolos" usually translated "angel.")

12 of those called "Apostle" (messenger) were those specific 12 who meet the above criteria. The other 4 were "messengers" of the Gospel but not part of "the twelve." The 5th was, of course, Christ who Himself brought the Gospel message from heaven to mankind.

Today we do not have Apostles in the sense of the 12 who received direct revelation from God. That office died with John in around 102 AD.

Today we still have apostles (note the small case "a") who are called as messengers of the Gospel to carry the Good News all around the world. Today we call them "missionaries" (a word that doesn't appear in our English bibles).

Any man or church group who claims the office of Apostle (capital "A") is anti-christ and anti-bible, and we, the believers, are warned against such self appointed blasphemers by Paul in his letters to Timothy, the Galatians, and John's epistle.