Researching apostles...

[awaken]

The answer seems obvious to me. There are the 12 Apostles who meet the criteria set by the bible. Accompanied Jesus from the beginning of His Ministry (His baptism) through the end of His Ministry (His Ascension) which includes being an eye-witness to His Resurrection and Resurrection Ministry.

THis I agreed with! As I stated in my op..."The Twelve were a distinct group, but not the only apostles"

There are 17 people called "apostle" (apostolos) in the New Testament, including Jesus Himself.

Can you give scriptures to show how you come up with that?

The bible makes it very clear that when using the term "Apostle" in a specific manner it is referring to the 12 and only the 12.

So Ephesians 4 is not speaking about the 12?

However, the Greek word "apostolos" is simply one of two Greek words in our New Testaments meaning "messenger." (The other being "aggolos" usually translated "angel.")

12 of those called "Apostle" (messenger) were those specific 12 who meet the above criteria. The other 4 were "messengers" of the Gospel but not part of "the twelve." The 5th was, of course, Christ who Himself brought the Gospel message from heaven to mankind.

So Paul was just a messenger? Who are the other 4? Please give scripture to back up your stand..otherwise it comes across as just an opinion!

Today we do not have Apostles in the sense of the 12 who received direct revelation from God. That office died with John in around 102 AD.

Scripture please!

Today we still have apostles (note the small case "a") who are called as messengers of the Gospel to carry the Good News all around the world. Today we call them "missionaries" (a word that doesn't appear in our English bibles).

Again, without scripture to back up what you claim...it is just your opinion!

Any man or church group who claims the office of Apostle (capital "A") is anti-christ and anti-bible, and we, the believers, are warned against such self appointed blasphemers by Paul in his letters to Timothy, the Galatians, and John's epistle.

Anti-christ are just what it says...against Christ! You are not against Christ if you believe in apostles today!

 

[awaken]

If that makes you feel better about your failed position then so be it. Your op has been debunked.

Really?? I just see a lot of opinions and half of the OP ignored! No one has given scriptures to back up there theories!

 

[Revmitchell]

Really?? I just see a lot of opinions and half of the OP ignored! No one has given scriptures to back up there theories!

Now you are just not being honest.

 

[awaken]

Maybe if we can figure out Eph. 4 ???

The apostolic age is an assumption that supports the theological position that miracles, tongues, the power of God, apostles, prophets, the gifts of the Spirit, the leading of God's Spirit, and many other things are no longer available to the church.

Eph. 4:11-13 The apostles will be here until we all come to the unity of the faith. Are we there yet?
And the knowledge of the Son fo God to a perfect (tolally complete and mature) man. Are we there yet?
To the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Are we there yet?

There is nothing in the Bible about the apostolic age except the word, "Til," in Eph. 4. Til means UNTIL and would seem to limit the apostles to a certain time period when all those things mentioned above are accomplished.

With that in mind...I feel like we still need apostles for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...Just as the Word of God says!

 

[awaken]

Now you are just not being honest.

Address Eph. 4 as my last post states! No one has addressed it!
And you can quit with the name calling (dishonest person)...it really does not add to the debate..just proves you have no scriptures to back up your theory!

 

[Revmitchell]

Address Eph. 4 as my last post states! No one has addressed it!
And you can quit with the name calling (dishonest person)...it really does not add to the debate..just proves you have no scriptures to back up your theory!

I do not need to address Eph 4. My original post where I posted scripture and showed that you are wrong. So you claim I have no scripture only opinion is blatantly false and dishonest.

 

[awaken]

I do not need to address Eph 4. My original post where I posted scripture and showed that you are wrong. So you claim I have no scripture only opinion is blatantly false and dishonest.

Eph. 4 Contradicts your theory! I addressed your post!
YOu said they had to witness the resurrection...Paul was not there when Christ resurrected! He did see the risen Lord in a bright light, but saw no man!

You limit Jesus! Where does it say in scripture that He will not call others as he did Paul? You can not prove that in scripture!

 

[DHK]

Acts said he saw NO MAN...if he can appear to Paul in what ever form he wants...he can also appear to others that he calls!

You still maintain your unbelief in the Bible, or
your belief that the Bible contradicts itself. Which is it?

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

[Revmitchell]

Eph. 4 Contradicts your theory! I addressed your post!
YOu said they had to witness the resurrection...Paul was not there when Christ resurrected! He did see the risen Lord in a bright light, but saw no man!

You limit Jesus! Where does it say in scripture that He will not call others as he did Paul? You can not prove that in scripture!

Still being dishonest I see. I will leave you to your misery.

 

[DHK]

Today we do not have Apostles in the sense of the 12 who received direct revelation from God. That office died with John in around 102 AD.

Scripture please!

The Apostle John died ca. 102 A.D. I have tried to tell you that before.
This is what history tells us, verifying the end of the Apostolic Age at the end of the first century.
Just as the Apostles died at the end of the first century history also verifies that no one spoke in this pagan gibberish that you speak in until 1905 when the modern Charismatic Movement began. Its historical roots are found in paganism; it is not of God. Thus, you won't find it in the Bible. And you don't find true Biblical gift of speaking in languages in history, except in Biblical times.

 

[awaken]

You still maintain your unbelief in the Bible, or
your belief that the Bible contradicts itself. Which is it?

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

How does Acts describe what He saw? Yes, it was Jesus..but he saw "no man" He saw a bright light!
You limit Him to doing things that you can grasp in your little brain! He is much bigger than that!

 

[awaken]

Still being dishonest I see. I will leave you to your misery.

In other words..you can not address Eph. 4 without throwing your theory out the window!

 

[awaken]

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Without biblical support, this fivefold list of ordained ministries from Ephesians 4:11 has been separated by most.

Most accept the evangelist, pastor, and teacher as being valid ministries for the church today. But the ministries of apostles and Christian prophets are kept in the first-century church!


If you look close at Eph. 4 you will see that they are “ascension gifts” He gave them after he ascended they are still needed in the Church today. The “perfecting of the saints” intended by the Lord (Ephesians 4:12) will require all five of these ministry gifts given by the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:11).

 

[DHK]

How does Acts describe what He saw? Yes, it was Jesus..but he saw "no man" He saw a bright light!
You limit Him to doing things that you can grasp in your little brain! He is much bigger than that!

I don't care right now about what you think that passage says.
You made a direct allegation that Paul does not meet the requirements of an Apostle because he never saw the risen Lord.
You have made him a liar.
You have made yourself a liar.
You have called into question the veracity of the Bible.

The Bible's testimony of Paul; Paul's own testimony is: "Christ was seen of me also."
But apparently you still deny that Paul saw the risen Lord.
You don't believe what the Bible says.
It seems that I should ask you if you really are saved, when you deny such direct statements of one seeing the risen Lord. What do you think?

 

[awaken]

I don't care right now about what you think that passage says.
You made a direct allegation that Paul does not meet the requirements of an Apostle because he never saw the risen Lord.
You have made him a liar.
You have made yourself a liar.
You have called into question the veracity of the Bible.

The Bible's testimony of Paul; Paul's own testimony is: "Christ was seen of me also."
But apparently you still deny that Paul saw the risen Lord.
You don't believe what the Bible says.
It seems that I should ask you if you really are saved, when you deny such direct statements of one seeing the risen Lord. What do you think?

You are so good at twisting someones words...
I know Paul was an apostle! THe Word of God says he was!
Men set the requirements of an aposste to walking with John the Baptist until his resurrection. Seeing the resurrected Jesus.
Paul was not with John the Baptist.
He did see the resurrected Jesus in the form of a light.

Man limits God to only doing it once.
Who are we to say God can not do it again!
No where in scripture does it limit God the way man wants to limit Him!
The same thing that happen to Paul can happen to anyone Jesus chooses! The Word of God did not set this limit...man did!

How are we called into any ministry today?
Whether apostles, prophet, evagelist pastors or teachers?

As I have stated several times...but NNE has addressed is the fact that these gifts that is recorded in Eph. 4 was given to the church for the perfecting of the saints! THEY WERE GIVEN AFTER JESUS ASCENDED!

So he called apostles into this ministry after his resurrection too. Paul being one of them!

Just to throw this out there....more than just the apostles manifested signs and wonders!

 

[DHK]

You are so good at twisting someones words...
I know Paul was an apostle! THe Word of God says he was!
Men set the requirements of an aposste to walking with John the Baptist until his resurrection. Seeing the resurrected Jesus.
Paul was not with John the Baptist.
He did see the resurrected Jesus in the form of a light.

Why do you continue to deny the clear testimony of Scripture and of Paul, right to the extent of calling Paul a liar.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul says he saw the risen Lord, not a light, but the risen Lord.
You are making a liar out of Paul.
I can take you to many Scriptures where Paul saw the Lord at various times in his life. If he saw the Lord, the Lord was risen. It was not a dead Christ that he was seeing. Why do you call his testimony into question and thus infer he is lying?

Do you believe we should do the same thing to you and call your testimony into question?
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[TCassidy]

As Saul travels to Damascus at midday, he experiences the divine presence: a light from heaven flashing around him and a voice addressing him (compare 7:31/Ex 3:4-10). The descent from Mt. Hermon to Damascus in the plain goes through a region known for violent electrical storms. Though this flashing light may have had the effects of lightning, however, it was a supernatural midday phenomenon.

Saul and his traveling companions see the light, but Saul sees more: the risen Lord Jesus in all his resplendent glory (9:17, 27; 22:14; 26:16; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8). So overwhelming is the sight that Saul falls to the ground (compare Ezek 1:28; Dan 8:17). The sound or voice probably reminds him of the bat-qol ("daughter of the voice"), the way pious Jews believed God had directly communicated with human beings since the gift of prophecy had ceased with Malachi (Longenecker 1981:370). But the divine presence creates confusion for Saul, for if God is speaking with him, who is this heavenly figure addressing him?

The voice gives the divine perspective on Paul's activity. With a repeated address (compare Gen 22:11; Ex 3:4; 1 Sam 3:10; Lk 10:41; 22:31) the voice asks, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Jesus identifies with his disciples, his body (see Lk 10:16; Acts 1:1; 9:1; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). In doing so he reveals that Saul's teacher Gamaliel's worst fears have materialized (Acts 5:39).

Saul grapples with his dawning realization that his life, though lived in zeal for the one true God even to the point of persecuting the church, has in reality been one of "ignorance in unbelief" (1 Tim 1:13). Through the question "why?" he begins to see that in proving his commitment to God by persecuting the church, he has actually been proving himself an enemy of God. As Saul deeply considers that "why?" and accepts the divine perspective on his actions, his whole spiritual world will be turned upside down. What was gain will become loss (Phil 3:6-9). What was a badge of honor will become a lifelong shameful blot on his character (1 Cor 15:9; 1 Tim 1:13, 15).

Out of his confusion, Saul calls, Who are you, Lord? Is he simply addressing the heavenly being with respect (Marshall 1980:169), or is he for the first time confessing Jesus as his Lord (compare Rom 10:9-10; 1 Cor 12:3; Kistemaker 1990:332)? His inquiry about the person's identity may indicate the former. He receives a divine disclosure in the clear reply, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting." Jesus of Nazareth is risen from the dead! Stephen was telling the truth when he bore witness to the Son of Man standing at God's right hand (Acts 7:56). Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior, the Lord (9:20, 28).

Immediately Jesus issues a divine demand that requires Saul's trust and obedience. In the city he will learn what he must do to fulfill God's purposes (compare 9:16; 14:22).

Saul's companions probably include a number of wayfarers banded together in a caravan for protection against the hazards of the journey, as well as temple police to aid Saul in his work (Lake and Cadbury 1979:101; Bruce 1988:185). At this encounter they stand speechless, hearing a voice or the sound of a voice but not understanding the words (9:7/22:9). They do not see Jesus, though they see the light (22:9).

Note that last paragraph. The lost hear a sound and see a light but can't understand the sound or identify the light. They were lost, and "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God."

Only the saved could understand the voice and identify the person. The same is true today. If you see Jesus and not just a light, you are saved. If you understand His words rather than just hearing sounds, you are saved. If not, you are lost.

 

[awaken]

Why do you continue to deny the clear testimony of Scripture and of Paul, right to the extent of calling Paul a liar.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul says he saw the risen Lord, not a light, but the risen Lord.
You are making a liar out of Paul.
I can take you to many Scriptures where Paul saw the Lord at various times in his life. If he saw the Lord, the Lord was risen. It was not a dead Christ that he was seeing. Why do you call his testimony into question and thus infer he is lying?

Do you believe we should do the same thing to you and call your testimony into question?
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I do not deny that Paul had an encounter with our risen Savior! What I have a problem with is man's limitation where God does not put limitation! You limit him to a one person...one encounter! I Do not limit God! I say what he did once he can do again! WHO ARE WE TO SAY HE CAN NOT!

 

[awaken]

Note that last paragraph. The lost hear a sound and see a light but can't understand the sound or identify the light. They were lost, and "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God."

Only the saved could understand the voice and identify the person. The same is true today. If you see Jesus and not just a light, you are saved. If you understand His words rather than just hearing sounds, you are saved. If not, you are lost.

That is great...many lessons that can come out of the same scriptures. But it does not prove or disprove apostles for today!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That is great...many lessons that can come out of the same scriptures. But it does not prove or disprove apostles for today!

So, what in your mind would be the purpose of a "modern apostle"?