Liberal Christianity vs. Seeker Friendly Christanity

[Iconoclast]

Are you assuming this must only mean that they are first given and then come only because they are given?

I am not assuming anything, but rather believing the truth that Jesus died a Covenant death for All that were given to Him before the world was.

Jn 6:37-44 is Rock solid..as is Hebrews 2:9-17:thumbs:

They were given To Jesus before the incarnation;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not assuming anything, but rather believing the truth that Jesus died a Covenant death for All that were given to Him before the world was.

Jn 6:37-44 is Rock solid..as is Hebrews 2:9-17:thumbs:

Ok it is posts like this that make it difficult to speak to hyper Calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

NOT. If you had read it you would have known it is a Calvinist site. There are five pages on this verse alone, try reading what moderate Calvinists taught for once, might do you some good.

Winman...I said I read it....i saw even the others you did not post, like Charnock....

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok it is posts like this that make it difficult to speak to hyper Calvinists.

How so.....it is very easy....we can see what the verses say....do you see something different. because I do not agree with your view, I am HYPER???
these verses are very clear.


They were given To Jesus before the incarnation;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,

 

[Winman]

John Calvin himself admits that 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of 100% of mankind;

“Not willing that any should perish.” So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way. But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Calvin admits 2 Peter 3:9 stretches forth without a difference to all, but then says God "hidden" or "secret" will is to damn the non-elect.

How Calvin came to know this hidden or secret will of God would be an interesting discussion. Cannot God keep a secret?

Of course, anyone can claim he knows God's hidden or secret will, and no one can disprove it. :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok it is posts like this that make it difficult to speak to hyper Calvinists.

Sometimes it might seem to be more difficult, if the person you are speaking with can answer you.Why not look at these three sections together:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman, Notice that none of your quotes are addressing the actual language used....

Wishing (1014) (boulomai [word study]) expresses more strongly than thelo the deliberate exercise of one's will. (present tense)

While God is always willing to save man, man is not always willing to be saved. Don't be confused by this section -- God's "wishing" here does not express a decree (determining will), as if God has willed everyone to be saved. Universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Instead those words describe God’s standing wish or desire which is that He longs that all would be saved (1Ti 2:4) but knows that many reject Him, again leaving open the possibility of human freedom of choice.

 

[Winman]

Winman, Notice that none of your quotes are addressing the actual language used....

Wishing (1014) (boulomai [word study]) expresses more strongly than thelo the deliberate exercise of one's will. (present tense)

While God is always willing to save man, man is not always willing to be saved. Don't be confused by this section -- God's "wishing" here does not express a decree (determining will), as if God has willed everyone to be saved. Universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Instead those words describe God’s standing wish or desire which is that He longs that all would be saved (1Ti 2:4) but knows that many reject Him, again leaving open the possibility of human freedom of choice.

What do you mean, man is not always willing to be saved? In your system, no man is willing to be saved unless God regenerates him, makes him spiritually alive. You believe God makes a man alive so that he is able to believe so that he is able to receive life. Absolutely nonsensical, but that is what Calvinism teaches.

The fact is, all of these many Calvinists admit that 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of 100% of men, not the elect only.

This hidden or secret will of God is laughable, how did YOU come to know this hidden or secret will?

I guess you really do believe yourself so smart that you can figure out God's hidden or secret will. :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by Revmitchell View Post
Are you assuming this must only mean that they are first given and then come only because they are given?

They are first given....
The Father draws them by the Spirit
The are made willing in the day of God's power,at new birth.

All who are given by the Father come.....no more, no less.....ALL.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

this is the essence of the Covenant death and Particular Redemption.
This is a wonderful truth and blessing. We can preach with confidence to all men,knowing that God has ordained that means to reach His sheep...

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you mean, man is not always willing to be saved? In your system, no man is willing to be saved unless God regenerates him, makes him spiritually alive. You believe God makes a man alive so that he is able to believe so that he is able to receive life. Absolutely nonsensical, but that is what Calvinism teaches.

The fact is, all of these many Calvinists admit that 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of 100% of men, not the elect only.

This hidden or secret will of God is laughable, how did YOU come to know this hidden or secret will?

I guess you really do believe yourself so smart that you can figure out God's hidden or secret will. :laugh:

Winman,

God has already revealed THE SECRET.....
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

See.....it is clear.....ALL spoken of here Get saved, because the Godhead has planned to save ALL of them...he is not willing that any of them perish.:wavey:

see the above post to RM.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

God has already revealed THE SECRET.....
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

See.....it is clear.....ALL spoken of here Get saved, because the Godhead has planned to save ALL of them...he is not willing that any of them perish.:wavey:

see the above post to RM.

If God has revealed it, then it is not a secret.

God gives those whom he knows in his foreknowledge will believe on Jesus. These are his sheep. This is why he says my sheep hear my voice, and I know them. The sheep hearing Jesus's voice preceded them being foreknown by God.

But where does God say he secretly desires many men to perish?

 

[Iconoclast]

If God has revealed it, then it is not a secret.

God gives those whom he knows in his foreknowledge will believe on Jesus. These are his sheep. This is why he says my sheep hear my word.

But where does God say he secretly desires many men to perish?

No....Foreknowledge is ......Of THE PERSONS,as sinners...he does not save them because he "SEES " they will believe....that is false and confuses people, All of mankind are sinners.God chose a multitude of sinners, to save...TO ACTUALLY save. He died for them while they were YET SINNERS.

No one would believe unless the Father who sent Jesus ...draws them..
No man can come...UNLESS

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

These are the sheep, who are taught of the Father...they are the Coven.ant children.

Isa 54 speaks of the covenant gentiles being grafted in, having been taught of the Father.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

read from verse 1 if you really want to see it...paul quotes it in gal4

 

[Iconoclast]

must sleep now, must be up before sunrise...later

 

[Van]

Lol

Van

Like all who teach falsely ...when caught, you now seek to shift from your position and word things in a way that tries to look reasonable...

Listen to this fault finder making one false statement after another. I did not change my position, I again made the case that scripture teaches men of flesh can understand milk, the elementary principles concerning Christ. I provided verse after verse, including 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Hebrews 5:2 and 6:1.

The teaching that you offer..."milk of the gospel does not exist"...and is no where to be found.

I demonstrated the concept from scripture, which of course demonstrates that Calvinism is mistaken doctrine.

New Christitans are instructed to desire the Sincere milk of the word. Christians alone can welcome and understand the "milk" of the word,and later on, the meat of the word.

Utterly false, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 teaches men of flesh, can understand the milk. So yet another denial of the truth of scripture and the assertion of the mistaken view of Calvinism.

The unsaved cannot welcome ,or receive the word as you falsely teach.

Yet another denial, but Matthew 13 clearly says unsaved folks received the gospel with joy.

Did you teach that in this post???Nope...you changed what you have posted many times before.....You teach that unsaved natural man can receive the "milk of the word"...despite your wriggling around in this post.

Yet another false charge and misrepresentation of my view, which is unchanged, men of flesh can understand the milk, the elementary principles about Christ.

You deny 1 cor 2:14 and supply your "view" .

Yet another falsehood. 1 Corinthians 2:14 sames the natural man of flesh cannot understand the things of the Holy Spirit. I does not say whether the things refers to all things, the Calvinist claim, of some (spiritual meat) things the contextually required understanding.

1 Corinthians 3:2 refers to some spiritual food as meat and more fundamental spiritual food as milk. The new Christians, babies in Christ, could not understand the meat so Paul taught them using the milk spiritual food.

Thus, even though "the milk or fundamentals of the gospel" does not appear as an exact phrase, the concept that men of flesh and babies in Christ can understand milk is in the bible (1 Corinthians 3:2),

Wrong

Yet another denial with nothing addressing Paul speaking to babies in Christ as men of flesh because the babies could only understand milk. QED

 

[Revmitchell]

You appear to be an open theist. Does God predestine whatsoever comes to pass, or does He allow men to choose to trust in Him, or to reject Him. If you deny Irresistible Grace, you are an open theist, rather than a "Closed Theist" as are Calvinists.

Apparently you do not know what an open theist is.

 

[Van]

Apparently you do not know what an open theist is.

Yet another attack devoid of content. My position is not closed theism, because the future is not exhaustive predestined. If anyone is not a closed theist, with the future settled, then they are to some degree open theists. Thus all Arminians and other non-Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van

Listen to this fault finder making one false statement after another.

Twaddle:laugh:Fiddlesticks:laugh:.....You were caught at the scene of the crime

I did not change my position,

You tried as shown:laugh:

I again made the case that scripture teaches men of flesh can understand milk,

When you were caught, you confessed,I give you credit for that:thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Would someone please clearly enunciate and define what a "seeker friendly" church is? Personally, I "like" when people are searching and seeking with earnest desire to know their creator.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yet another attack devoid of content. My position is not closed theism, because the future is not exhaustive predestined. If anyone is not a closed theist, with the future settled, then they are to some degree open theists. Thus all Arminians and other non-Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.

Some folks need to stop acting like a victim just because they do not like the response. And no no one is an open theist. Absurd and childish.

 

[Van]

Yet another person attack without merit, Revmichell, and then a denial of the fact the future is not fixed, and we are responsible for choosing either the life or death options set before us by God. That choice has not been predestined, as the closed theists of Calvinism teach. Therefore all Arminians and many non-Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.