The Rapture Vs Second Coming

[Jedi Knight]

Which do you believe is the right biblical view....The Rapture and Second Coming or just the "Second Coming"?

 

[convicted1]

Second coming.....Matthew 25, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess. 4, and Rev 20

 

[kyredneck]

The 'next' coming.

 

[Old Union Brother]

The 'next' coming.

:applause::applause::applause:

Heb 9:28    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

:applause::applause::applause:

Heb 9:28    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

You guys might stop the clapping of hands....they might not think were Baptist!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Tom Bryant]

It's a matter of "Wrong Question and Right Answer" that Jesus dealt with in Acts 1
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

The Apostles are like us. They wanted their view on final things to get Jesus' stamp of approval. Jesus just told them It's not for you to know... get out and tell people about me."

 

[Bob Alkire]

It's a matter of "Wrong Question and Right Answer" that Jesus dealt with in Acts 1
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

The Apostles are like us. They wanted their view on final things to get Jesus' stamp of approval. Jesus just told them It's not for you to know... get out and tell people about me."

Good answer, my friend.

 

[Judith]

Which do you believe is the right biblical view....The Rapture and Second Coming or just the "Second Coming"?

Unfortunately the rapture many times is spoken of as the return of Christ which is false. The rapture does not include the return of Jesus. He shouts (calls) from afar, but does not return. To deny the second coming or the rapture is to deny scripture as both are spoken of. The problem is not if there is going to be a rapture, or if there is going to be a second coming, but the timing of each. We need to keep in mind that the rapture is the removing of the church and the second coming is the returning of Christ with all the saints. Two totally separate events not to be mixed or confused with one another.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm still looking for a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture which teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

There are plenty of clear post-tribulation return verses. The pre-trib view appears to assume its validity and read it into certain verses.

 

[SovereignMercy]

It's a matter of "Wrong Question and Right Answer" that Jesus dealt with in Acts 1
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

The Apostles are like us. They wanted their view on final things to get Jesus' stamp of approval. Jesus just told them It's not for you to know... get out and tell people about me."

The disciples are correct that a time is coming when Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel, just didn't need to know then when that time will be.

 

[SovereignMercy]

I'm still looking for a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture which teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

There are plenty of clear post-tribulation return verses. The pre-trib view appears to assume its validity and read it into certain verses.

Quote them.

 

[Tom Butler]

Quote them.

Clearly post-trib passages are such as Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 5, and II Thessalonians 2. They are either tribulational or post-tribulational.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm still looking for a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture which teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

There are plenty of clear post-tribulation return verses. The pre-trib view appears to assume its validity and read it into certain verses.

problem is that ANY viewpoint as "partial" support, as many times it depends on how you come to the text!

Are we seeing it thru Covenant eyes? Dispy? thru elect meaning end time jews? or saints in general/

that is what makes it hard to discern and open to disagreements!

I hold to pre trib view, due to me seeing the church not part of the plan of God for end times, as he will be returning to getting israel prepared for the second Coming of their messiah!

 

[Yeshua1]

Clearly post-trib passages are such as Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 5, and II Thessalonians 2. They are either tribulational or post-tribulational.

what is THE purpose though of the Great tribulation? to my understanding, its to usher in the kingdom of jesus upon the earth, but first smashing down all of man systems, and to prepare israel to meet their coming God!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

There is no future earthly kingdom for the Jews. That was a misconception that Christ directly refuted. I still cannot understand how some can believe that a short 1,000yr earthly kingdom, that will cease to exist, fulfills the promises of an eternal kingdom with Christ eternally sitting on the "throne of David". That's just senseless. We are only awaiting Jesus' one & only return. He will gather the lost out first, then the saved.


Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Matt 16:28)

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Mat 13:37-43)

 

[RLBosley]

I voted Rapture & Second Coming, but I must clarify that I do not believe in the idea that the rapture is separated from the second coming by a 7 year period of time of hell on earth. The return of Christ and the Rapture are each a component of the larger post-tribulational Second Advent. So maybe that is more in line with the OP's poll option of Second Coming Only, however I still hold to a gathering of the saints to meet the Lord in the air at the visible return of Christ; thus I voted as I did.

I'm still looking for a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture which teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

There are plenty of clear post-tribulation return verses. The pre-trib view appears to assume its validity and read it into certain verses.

:applause:

 

[beameup]

Clearly post-trib passages are such as Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 5, and II Thessalonians 2. They are either tribulational or post-tribulational.

1 Thes 5 follows 1 Thes 4 and should not be artificially separated.
1 Thes 4:13-18 clearly talk about a removal of the (mostly) Gentile Church "in the clouds" (second heaven).
Then follows in 1 Thes 5, "The Day of the Lord", ie: Tribulation, where once again, genetic Israel is "center stage".

Matthew 24 is clearly written to Jewish Disciples and is somewhat of a "private briefing". There will be genetic Israelite disciples during the Tribulation as there were then.

2 Thes. 2 simply points out conditions leading up to the Tribulation. Our "gathering together unto Him" is simply an indirect way of referring to the harpazo.

It's those pesky "fine details" in the scripture that will get you everytime... unless the Holy Spirit points them out to you.

 

[Tom Butler]

1 Thes 5 follows 1 Thes 4 and should not be artificially separated.
1 Thes 4:13-18 clearly talk about a removal of the (mostly) Gentile Church "in the clouds" (second heaven).
Then follows in 1 Thes 5, "The Day of the Lord", ie: Tribulation, where once again, genetic Israel is "center stage".

Matthew 24 is clearly written to Jewish Disciples and is somewhat of a "private briefing". There will be genetic Israelite disciples during the Tribulation as there were then.

2 Thes. 2 simply points out conditions leading up to the Tribulation. Our "gathering together unto Him" is simply an indirect way of referring to the harpazo.

It's those pesky "fine details" in the scripture that will get you everytime... unless the Holy Spirit points them out to you.

Yeah, I wish the writers had simply said, "okay, this is going to happen first, then this, then this, etc."

A couple of observations: Let's be careful not to read into a verse or passage something that's not there. For instance, in I Thess 4, the prevailing interpretation is that this is the rapture when Jesus comes and snatches believers from the earth, takes them to heaven for seven years, then comes back with them to do battle with Satan's forces, set up the 1000-year reign, then into eternity.

The problem is that it doesn't specifically say that. One could just as easily say that the saints on earth were caught up at the end of the Tribulation to meet Jesus as he returns with the rest of the saints who've been in heaven all along.

Another common view is that once the Rapture occurs, and the saints are taken to heaven, no one else will be saved during that time. That's because the Holy Spirit is gone, too. If that's the case, then a lot of writing about the Tribulation is meaningless to us. If, however, believers went through the Tribulation, then it makes some sense. But what if the Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit. Dispies assume that they're the same, but there is room for another view.

And, if all the saints are gone during the tribulation, who are the Two Witnesses?

Don't get me wrong. I don't think any Christian wants to go through the Tribulation. But I don't think that desire should drive our quest to find any scripture verse that we can interpret to bolster our wishes.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've heard it said that the Rapture is when Jesus comes FOR the saints, and the Second Coming is when Jesus returns WITH His saints. Sounds good, but when you think about it, Jesus could be coming WITH His saints FOR the rest of the saints.

And, after the meeting in the air, Jesus and the saints could simply continue to earth.

Which, by the way, is where I think our eternal dwelling place will finally be. But that's another topic.