The Rapture Vs Second Coming

[beameup]

My challenge is still out there, yet unanswered. If we're going to appeal to Scripture for our views, then my dispy friends should be able to come up with one fixing the rapture at the beginning of the Tribulation.

Who said anything about the "beginning" of the Tribulation. Too many "assume" too much.
I would put the Harpazo after the Psalm 83 event (following which Israel "dwells securely without walls or gates"),
and Ezekiel 38-39 (when they are attacked by just about every Islamic state BUT Arabs, (because they have already subdued the Arabs).

Those genetic Israelites who didn't return to Israel following Ps. 83 will immigrate there following Ez. 38-39 until
every last genetic Israelite is living in the "Promised Land" (see Ez. 37). Only then will they be "concentrated" in one place for the Antichrist...

 

[Jedi Knight]

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
John 5:28-29 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

 

[Tom Butler]

Who said anything about the "beginning" of the Tribulation. Too many "assume" too much.]

If the rapture does not take place at the beginning of the seven years tribulation, when does it take place, in your view?

I would put the Harpazo after the Psalm 83 event (following which Israel "dwells securely without walls or gates"),
and Ezekiel 38-39 (when they are attacked by just about every Islamic state BUT Arabs, (because they have already subdued the Arabs)

What verse or verses fixes the times of the events you mentioned?

Those genetic Israelites who didn't return to Israel following Ps. 83 will immigrate there following Ez. 38-39 until

every last genetic Israelite is living in the "Promised Land" (see Ez. 37). Only then will they be "concentrated" in one place for the Antichrist...

And when will that be?

 

[beameup]

If the rapture does not take place at the beginning of the seven years tribulation, when does it take place, in your view?

Between Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 IMO. Both are unfulfilled prophecies.
As well, Isaiah 17:1 describes Damascus as an uninhabitable ruinous heap
and Damascus is still the longest continuously inhabited city on earth.
This would "fit" into the Psalm 83 scenario as a nuclear retaliatory strike by
Israeli Defense Forces (as would be the case of al Qaeda using Syria's chemical
weapons against Israel, for example).

What verse or verses fixes the times of the events you mentioned?

You will have to read the prophecies and observe events in the Middle East. The "Arab Spring" has turned out to be an "Islamic Extremist Spring".

Those genetic Israelites who didn't return to Israel following Ps. 83 will immigrate there following Ez. 38-39 until
And when will that be?

Between Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 IMO. Read carefully the two prophecies. The first deals with a superior military defeating those attacking, as was the case in 1948, 1967, and 1973. The second shows direct intervention by the LORD in a supernatural way to defeat the enemies of His people. Then go back and read of the spiritual resurrection of genetic Israel in Ezekiel 37 - "those bones, those bones, those dry bones".

We know there must be a rebuilt temple and religious worship under Mosaic Law, as it is indicated in the Gospels and Paul's Epistles as a prerequisite. This clearly is a full return of genetic Israel to the pre-70 AD conditions and establishment of the only religion on earth directly given to man by the LORD.


Let's see... 1967 was a "6 day war" and Israel stopped at the Jordan and also returned the "temple mount" to the Grand Mufti. Those mistakes will not be repeated in the next war as Israel will acquire much more land as well as the temple mount. As a secondary result, the faith of Islam will be given a horrendous loss and loss-of-face. Terrorism will cease globally as "Allah" will be considered a shameful "loser" and the "jihadists" extremely demoralized.

Things are shaping up pretty quickly in the Middle East, so it won't be long.

*I might recommend a book by Bill Salus: Isralestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East which deals in detail with Psalm 83

 

[Yeshua1]

My challenge is still out there, yet unanswered. If we're going to appeal to Scripture for our views, then my dispy friends should be able to come up with one fixing the rapture at the beginning of the Tribulation.

the "problem" on that question is that the bible makes it very cleasr that Jesus second coming will be pre mil in nature, but as to the exact details of the Rapture?

have to tie that in for why the Churech will be called out, as again, GTperiod not for the churc, but for national israel to be prepared to meet her God!

 

[Yeshua1]

If the rapture does not take place at the beginning of the seven years tribulation, when does it take place, in your view?


What verse or verses fixes the times of the events you mentioned?

Those genetic Israelites who didn't return to Israel following Ps. 83 will immigrate there following Ez. 38-39 until
And when will that be?

i am starting to 'warm up" to the idea of a mid trib rapture, to tie into the 2 witnesses in revealtions being raised and types of the church, as the church can and has suffered tribulation, but the latter half seems to be when Antichrist is indstalled and makes his big push, and that causes the Wrath of god to be poured out on earth, and THAt the Church was not destined for!

 

[Tom Butler]

i am starting to 'warm up" to the idea of a mid trib rapture, to tie into the 2 witnesses in revealtions being raised and types of the church, as the church can and has suffered tribulation, but the latter half seems to be when Antichrist is indstalled and makes his big push, and that causes the Wrath of god to be poured out on earth, and THAt the Church was not destined for!

A couple of people in my church lean toward mid-Trib. I'm not there yet, but their view makes more sense than pre-trib.

 

[Yeshua1]

A couple of people in my church lean toward mid-Trib. I'm not there yet, but their view makes more sense than pre-trib.

that would tie into the 2 witnesses being "raptured' back to heaven by God, and the 144,000 jews sealed by the HS, as the Church left, and the wrath of God NOW would start to be poured out!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

There is no future "tribulation". That is the literalization of apocalyptic & judgment language, ignoring of time statements in Scripture, and the misinterpretation of Daniel 9. The 70th week was fulfilled during Christ's earthly ministry. We are only awaiting the return of Christ, when He will gather the lost & then the saved; then will be the destruction & recreation of the physical universe.

 

[Wherever You Go]

Hmm, that would be neat. :applause:

 

[Wherever You Go]

I've found that some people find it very convenient to spiritualize or deliteralize specific prophecies. It makes it so that they can take vast sections of the Bible and interpret it any way they like. :flower:

Please notice that the prophecies of Christ's first coming were all fulfilled literally. Why would the prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled not also be literal?

 

[SovereignMercy]

The spring feasts of Israel were all fulfilled by Jesus literally on the actual day of the feast during His first advent. The fall feasts of Israel will be fulfilled literally by Jesus at His second advent.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Here's a good article with some good reasons why the rapture must occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

http://lamblion.com/articles/articles_rapture7.php

I do disagree however with his point that there will be no signs pointing to the time of the rapture.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

It is interesting to note that the feast of trumpets is known as the feast in which no one knows the day or the hour.

 

[SovereignMercy]

I've found that some people find it very convenient to spiritualize or deliteralize specific prophecies. It makes it so that they can take vast sections of the Bible and interpret it any way they like. :flower:

Please notice that the prophecies of Christ's first coming were all fulfilled literally. Why would the prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled not also be literal?

Both are good points.

 

[Iconoclast]

The raising up of the tabernacle of David is not fulfilled in the restoration of the earthly dominion wielded by David’s royal line, but in the spiritual salvation of the Gentiles (cp. Amos 9:11 with Acts 15:16-19).

God’s calling them “my people” which were not His people does not refer to earthly Israel, as the literalist must hold, but to the spiritual church of Jew and Gentile (cp. Hosea 1, 2 with Rom. 9:24-26).

Ezekiel’s new temple is not a physical building that will yet be erected on a mound of dirt in the earthly city of Jerusalem, but the spiritual body of Jesus Christ (cp. Ezek. 40-48 with John 2:18-22 and I Pet. 2:1-10).

"Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," Deuteronomy 25:4 tells us. The literal meaning is sensible — it is based on a good principle. Paul applied this verse — in principle, not in letter — to human workers, including those who preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:7-12: 1 Timothy 5:17-18).

 

[saturneptune]

I've found that some people find it very convenient to spiritualize or deliteralize specific prophecies. It makes it so that they can take vast sections of the Bible and interpret it any way they like. :flower:

Please notice that the prophecies of Christ's first coming were all fulfilled literally. Why would the prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled not also be literal?

Can you show one verse in the Bible that clearly speaks of a Rapture seperate from the Second Coming without any interpretation? What in Scripture says that because all of the prophecies concerning Christ are literal from the OT, establishes a requirement that all prophecy after that be literal?

I do not believe anyone has questioned your motives in believing in a seperate Rapture and Second Coming, so why the post questioning motivations of those who do not agree with you? Why cant you just read their reasoning, analyze your position, reread the verses and come to your own conclusion? The fact that two seperate people reach two seperate ideas about end times does not make one evil and one good.

 

[SovereignMercy]

The raising up of the tabernacle of David is not fulfilled in the restoration of the earthly dominion wielded by David’s royal line, but in the spiritual salvation of the Gentiles (cp. Amos 9:11 with Acts 15:16-19).

God’s calling them “my people” which were not His people does not refer to earthly Israel, as the literalist must hold, but to the spiritual church of Jew and Gentile (cp. Hosea 1, 2 with Rom. 9:24-26).

Ezekiel’s new temple is not a physical building that will yet be erected on a mound of dirt in the earthly city of Jerusalem, but the spiritual body of Jesus Christ (cp. Ezek. 40-48 with John 2:18-22 and I Pet. 2:1-10).

"Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," Deuteronomy 25:4 tells us. The literal meaning is sensible — it is based on a good principle. Paul applied this verse — in principle, not in letter — to human workers, including those who preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:7-12: 1 Timothy 5:17-18).

Read the text in context.
Amos 9:11-15 NKJV
" On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; [12] That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the LORD who does this thing. [13] " Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, " When the plowman shall overtake the reaper, And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; The mountains shall drip with sweet wine, And all the hills shall flow with it. [14] I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. [15] I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

This is during the Millennium not the eternal state. After the Millennium this creation is destroyed by fire and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the new, eternal earth, which is the home of righteousness. It is at this point, Revelation 21, where there is no temple, for the Lamb is the temple.

The literalist has no problem seeing Hosea as it is, we live in the church age, God has set aside Israel as a nation until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. The church is a mixture of primarily elect Gentiles just as during the time of the nation Israel the elect are primarily Jews. Read Romans 9 - 11 in context. It's quite clear.

No problem agreeing with Paul as he was inspired. In Deuteronomy however the text is referring to an ox. The levites were not called to secular employment as at least Paul was from time to time.

 

[quantumfaith]

Can you show one verse in the Bible that clearly speaks of a Rapture seperate from the Second Coming without any interpretation? What in Scripture says that because all of the prophecies concerning Christ are literal from the OT, establishes a requirement that all prophecy after that be literal?

I do not believe anyone has questioned your motives in believing in a seperate Rapture and Second Coming, so why the post questioning motivations of those who do not agree with you? Why cant you just read their reasoning, analyze your position, reread the verses and come to your own conclusion? The fact that two seperate people reach two seperate ideas about end times does not make one evil and one good.

There is so much truth in this statement and it applies to so many "arguments" here in BB land. Thanks for articulating it.

 

[Wherever You Go]

Can you show one verse in the Bible that clearly speaks of a Rapture seperate from the Second Coming without any interpretation? What in Scripture says that because all of the prophecies concerning Christ are literal from the OT, establishes a requirement that all prophecy after that be literal?

I do not believe anyone has questioned your motives in believing in a seperate Rapture and Second Coming, so why the post questioning motivations of those who do not agree with you? Why cant you just read their reasoning, analyze your position, reread the verses and come to your own conclusion? The fact that two seperate people reach two seperate ideas about end times does not make one evil and one good.

One verse will not tell. You have to take Scripture in its entirety.
Nothing absolute, but logic surely applies
I never said that.

 

[kyredneck]

...."Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," Deuteronomy 25:4 tells us. The literal meaning is sensible — it is based on a good principle. Paul applied this verse — in principle, not in letter — to human workers, including those who preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:7-12: 1 Timothy 5:17-18).

I guarantee all salaried 'literalist' preachers/missionaries spiritualize that one right.

 

[Wherever You Go]

There are many biblical passages that have multiple meanings or applications. Muzzling the ox that treadeth out the grain is one of them. In many cases, a passage may have both the meaning you think it has and the meaning I think it has. Sometimes, it may have neither!

If you read Psalm 22, you will clearly see many very specific prophecies of th Messiah. And yet it does not specifically label the prophecies as messianic. Even the words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" are the specific words of our Lord on the cross, and yet David's writing does not say so. If you read through the psalm, you will find that David was actually speaking about his own immediate circumstances. And yet many of the verses actually do refer to the Messiah as well. Whether David had any idea of that when he wrote them by the inspiration of God is unclear, at least to me.

But there was an immediate context of David's immediate surroundings, and a Messianic context too, layered together. Having said that, there is also a context for us as contemporary believers. We can see how David (and the Lord) were oppressed, and we can take comfort from the fact that, as David points out, in verses 22 through 24, that God is worthy of praise regardless of our circumstances, and He does hear people who cry unto Him. This is an encouragement to us even today.

Farther on in the chapter, we see a Christian era and/or tribulational and/or millennial prophecy about the spread of God's word among the gentile nations.

Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

That prophecy is being partially fulfilled nowadays and will probably meet its culmination during the great evangelistic times of the tribulation, when the 144,000 Jewish missionaries will evangelize the world.

There is every reason why we should take scripture literally, at least in context, but that it is also possible to find some "spirituallized" meanings in some passages as well.