No one disputes that we are still to obey the Moral aspect of the Law, but keeping the Sabbath was NOT given to us under the new Covenant!
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Two Baptist Views Combined - my view
- Thread starter BobRyan
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No one disputes that we are still to obey the Moral aspect of the Law, but keeping the Sabbath was NOT given to us under the new Covenant!
The Sabbath, or as it is referred to under the New Covenant as the Lord's Day, is a creation ordinance. It pre-dated the Mosaic Law (c.f. Genesis 2:3; Exodus 16:23). The Reformers used to call the Lord's Day the Christian sabbath. Their idea of the Christian sabbath was radically different than the Jewish Sabbath. Their idea of the Christian sabbath, or Lord's Day, was:
However one decides to observe the Lord's Day, it is not an optional command.
Where in Genesis 2:3 is there a command to keep the sabbath?
Where in Genesis 2:3 is the word "sabbath" mentioned?
Where in Genesis 2:3 is there any form of any command at all?
Exodus 16:23 is a command given to the nation of Israel. Why would you think that is applicable to Gentile Christians?
Exodus 31 makes it clear that the Sabbath is a day given as a sign between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever.
First, that is simply redefining the word "sabbath."
Second, that is not a command of Scripture.
Third, the early church did not meet on a specific day, but every day of the week (Acts 2:41ff).
Fourth we are not commanded to meet on any special day but every day is just as holy as every other day. Our mid-week service is just as important as our Sunday service. When we have evangelistic services or special meetings that last a week, then every service is important not just one.
Fifth, the command (fourth command) is not moral or immoral, as regards to God's moral law. Contrary to the nature of "Thou shalt not commit adultery," there is nothing moral or immoral about keeping one day holy unto the Lord. It is not part of God's moral law.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what the Westminster Confession of Faith says about it.
It is also what the Baptist Confession of Faith says about it. And it also what the Catechism says about it.
Your quote of it is interesting - you quote it as "As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed .... "
However there is not one single Bible text in all of scripture saying "keep one day in seven - whichever day you choose out of seven". I think we would all agree with that simple point.
The moral law of God is the Ten Commandments as a unit as we see in Eph 6 where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise".
In Rev 14:12 and in 1John 5:2-3 we are told that the saints keep the "Commandments of God".
In James 2- to break one is to break them all.
Thus all these documents affirming the faith of a number of Christian denominations - are right to say that
1. the Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:8-11
2. The Sabbath begins for mankind in Eden Gen 2:3 and so before Sinai stone tablets as even Ex 16 points out.
3. The Ten Commandments are Bible unit of Law even in the NT Eph 6.
4. The Ten Commandments are the moral law of God written on the heart. Heb 8
5. To break one is to break them all. no slice and dice doctrines for 10C's James 2.
6. The Sabbath is also called the Lord's Day in the Bible Mark 2:27 Isaiah 58:13 The SAME Sabbath commandment is just as important for mankind today as in Gen 2:3 and is binding on the saints.
7. The Moral law is written on the heart under the New Covenant Heb 8 (Jer 31:31-33).
8. The saints of the NT "Keep the Commandments of God" Rev 14:12, 1John 5:2,3
Where I differ with those documents and with D.L. Moody - is that they then go on to ignore Christ's teaching Mark 7:6-13 -- in that they clam to bend-wrench-twist that commandment to point to week-day-1 instead of the 7th day of the week. Deleting the actual words of the 4th commandment to insert their own tradition of "any one day in 7 that we pick"
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You guys keep "circling back" to the same dead issue.
I start off by saying that in that "one point" I think they are wrong as they bend-wrench-twist the Sabbath commandment to apply to "Week day 1" after the cross.
Your non-answer is then in form "yes but they bend it to point to week day 1".
As if that makes sense as a response. Why keep doing that?
The Sabbath discussion includes a number of points listed for example in the Baptist Confession of Faith. Not all of those points are in error - but a few are.
Moody accepts them all. Where he is right - I affirm him. Where he strays from the Bible and "reaches" for man-made tradition I draw the line -- which as stated dozens of times so far - is the line where he violates the Mark 7:6-13 rule of Christ and tries to bend the sabbath to point to week-day-1.
The idea that it makes sense to respond to that statement above as I just made it by a comment of the form "yes - but Moody then bends the Sabbath commandment to point to week-day-1 after the cross" - seems to fall short of advancing the discussion and responding to a point made.
in Christ,
Bob
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DHK,
First, the word "Sabbath" is Greek. It means "a ceasing".
In Genesis 2:3 we read, "Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."
The principle of ceasing is seen in God resting from His creative work. God could not actually cease from His sustaining work or else the universe would dissolve into destruction.
God sanctified the seventh day. Literally He set it apart.
The above was done before any Law of God was codified. The nation of Israel did not yet exist. There was no Mosaic Law. There was no formal Jewish Sabbath. Yet the precedent had been set, by God, for a set apart day.
The first forms of the formal Mosaic Sabbath are not seen until Exodus 16:22-36. The Law of Moses was not given until Exodus 20. In Exodus 16 God instructed Israel that the seventh day was to be a "a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the Lord". Literally it meant that the seventh day was to be a day of ceasing from all labor, a set apart day to the Lord.
This day of ceasing is very much a moral command in that it proceeded from the mouth of God. It is moral in that it is right for mankind to worship Him. It is immoral for mankind not to worship Him.
Sam Waldron writes,
In Exodus 20:9-11 the day of ceasing, the sabbath, is codified. In verse 11 God explains that the day of ceasing is, indeed, a creation ordinance. "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
The principle of a day of ceasing has never been abrogated in scripture.
Since you do not place any special significance on a day of worship ("we are not commanded to meet on any special day but every day is just as holy as every other day") you have turned worship into man-centered, optional activity. If there is no specific day to worship it follows that there is no specific place to worship. For that matter the content of worship is probably left up to the worshiper. You are advocating, wittingly or not, a post-modern view of worship; a "where anything goes" approach.
First, the word "Sabbath" is Greek. It means "a ceasing".
In Genesis 2:3 we read, "Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."
The principle of ceasing is seen in God resting from His creative work. God could not actually cease from His sustaining work or else the universe would dissolve into destruction.
God sanctified the seventh day. Literally He set it apart.
The above was done before any Law of God was codified. The nation of Israel did not yet exist. There was no Mosaic Law. There was no formal Jewish Sabbath. Yet the precedent had been set, by God, for a set apart day.
The first forms of the formal Mosaic Sabbath are not seen until Exodus 16:22-36. The Law of Moses was not given until Exodus 20. In Exodus 16 God instructed Israel that the seventh day was to be a "a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the Lord". Literally it meant that the seventh day was to be a day of ceasing from all labor, a set apart day to the Lord.
This day of ceasing is very much a moral command in that it proceeded from the mouth of God. It is moral in that it is right for mankind to worship Him. It is immoral for mankind not to worship Him.
Sam Waldron writes,
In Exodus 20:9-11 the day of ceasing, the sabbath, is codified. In verse 11 God explains that the day of ceasing is, indeed, a creation ordinance. "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
The principle of a day of ceasing has never been abrogated in scripture.
Since you do not place any special significance on a day of worship ("we are not commanded to meet on any special day but every day is just as holy as every other day") you have turned worship into man-centered, optional activity. If there is no specific day to worship it follows that there is no specific place to worship. For that matter the content of worship is probably left up to the worshiper. You are advocating, wittingly or not, a post-modern view of worship; a "where anything goes" approach.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Not only does Ex 20:11 point back to the Gen 2:3 facts "alone" as being the origin and authority for the Sabbath - but also Exodus 16 points out "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" thus proving that the Sabbath predates the speaking of the Law at Sinai in Ex 20 or the writing of it in stone.
Christ Himself affirms "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" and Gen 2:3 is the "making of " that 7th day of the week where "God made it holy".
And all mankind created in Gen 1 spends their first full day of life in Gen 2:3 observing that day.
in Christ,
Bob
NO. The word "sabbath" is from the Hebrew. The OT was written in Hebrew not in Greek. We first find the word Sabbath in Exodus 20. The word sabaoth means "intermission." It was an intermission between two weeks.
Right. No command.
Obviously; God himself did not need rest. He ceased from his act of creation. There were no given names of days. The seventh day could have been Wednesday, for example. It was a week of days. The sabbath is not mentioned. The principle being taught is that one in seven days a man should rest from his work. That is the only principle that can be taken from here.
There is nothing about the Ten Commandments.
There is nothing about the Sabbath Day.
For what purpose? For the purpose of rest. One day in seven man shall rest.
Set apart a day, one day in seven for rest.
And this command was given to the Jews.
There is no command given in Genesis 2:3; only a principle of one day in seven to be set apart for rest.
And this command is given to Israel. In Exodus 31 it is made very specific:
Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
It was a sign between Jehovah and Israel and her generations forever. That was a stiff penalty for THEM not to keep it. It was never given to the Gentiles.
--As a day of rest, no. Man should not work every day of the week. That is a Biblical principle.
That is not true. In fact you have just done what the Bible commands you not to do:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? ...
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it...
As you probably know, I am a missionary.
I have been in Islamic nations. The most popular day for Christians to meet in some of these nations is Friday. The reason? It is the only day that the Muslims will allow them time off work. It is a day where they also will be able to congregate together and worship together. This is no sin. One day is just like another in God's mind. There is no command in Scripture to worship on Sunday. It is pure tradition. The early church worshiped every day of the week. Would you condemn these people because that is the only day they are able to have corporate worship? Many of them are persecuted (even unto death) as it is.
DHK,
I should have been a bit more inclusive of the origins of the word sabbath. My intentions were to render the New Testament usage. The word we know as sabbath today was a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew word.
I am not going to get into an ad infinitum, ad nauseaum debate on whether the sabbath is a creation ordinance that is to be observed today. I come from a camp that believes it is. I have presented the case the Bible makes for it and will leave it up to others to accept or reject it.
I have not violated Romans 14. It was you who said, "we are not commanded to meet on any special day but every day is just as holy as every other day". If that is how you feel about specific days of worship then you are leaving worship up to the individual. Under your schema what church/pastor would have biblical warrant to compel someone to attend worship on a specific date? Your view removes any ecclesiastical authority in worship and makes the individual the sole interpreter.
The fact that you are a missionary is irrelevant and anecdotal. There are times when churches and individuals are providentially hindered from carrying out their Christian duties. That does not nullify God's commands, it just makes the situation irregular. As always grace rules.
Once again, understand that I am not trying to change your mind. I started by stating what I believe and that belief has not changed.
I should have been a bit more inclusive of the origins of the word sabbath. My intentions were to render the New Testament usage. The word we know as sabbath today was a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew word.
I am not going to get into an ad infinitum, ad nauseaum debate on whether the sabbath is a creation ordinance that is to be observed today. I come from a camp that believes it is. I have presented the case the Bible makes for it and will leave it up to others to accept or reject it.
I have not violated Romans 14. It was you who said, "we are not commanded to meet on any special day but every day is just as holy as every other day". If that is how you feel about specific days of worship then you are leaving worship up to the individual. Under your schema what church/pastor would have biblical warrant to compel someone to attend worship on a specific date? Your view removes any ecclesiastical authority in worship and makes the individual the sole interpreter.
The fact that you are a missionary is irrelevant and anecdotal. There are times when churches and individuals are providentially hindered from carrying out their Christian duties. That does not nullify God's commands, it just makes the situation irregular. As always grace rules.
Once again, understand that I am not trying to change your mind. I started by stating what I believe and that belief has not changed.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
No explicit in-the-text command in Genesis 1 or 2 that we should honor parents, not take the name of God in vain and/or not worship images. Only those operating on an any-ol-excuse-will-do would try to use that fact to argue for that kind of rebellion as "ok in Genesis 2".
I think we all see that point clearly.
And in Ex 20:11 we are told that the Gen 2:1-3 facts "alone" make the day - the 7th day binding.
Yet we know it was not - since in Ex 16 God says "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" and the exact day - selected by God is the same as in Gen 2:3 - the day still observed by the Jews and in the Gospels as "the Sabbath made for mankind" Mark 2:27.
Thus all the documents such as Westminster Confession of Faith, Baptist Confession of Faith, Catholic Catechism, and those who read the Bible and those documents - such as R.C. Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody easily figure out that the day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week as given by God from Eden (Gen 2:3 onward).
This is the easy part.
They then conclude that the first day of the week is Sunday - as we find it in the NT text -- making the seventh day - still Saturday just as in Gen 2:3 and Ex 16 before Sinai's tablets were written.
There is not a single text in all of scripture that says "Set apart a day, one day in seven for rest. "
And I think we have all figured that out by now.
Rather God says "THE seventh day is THE Sabbath" not "A day out of seven pick anyone you like" as some have wildly imagined.
That is part of the civil laws of the nations - distinct from the moral law. The distinction between civil laws applied to a theocracy and moral laws such as the Ten commandments are recognized as such by well known Christian documents such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, andBaptist Confession of Faith and denominations such as the Seventh-day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists etc.
The list of days in Rom 14 are the Lev 23 annual feast days. Some people observed a few of them above the rest -- like Paul did in Acts, and others observed (esteemed) them all.
The fact that the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment is still valid after the cross does not stop the Rom 14 practice of one man esteeming one of the Lev 23 days above another (keeping it holy to God) while another keeps them all - esteems them all.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Thus is illustrated the point of TWO baptist views.
D.L. Moody holds to one of them and specifically condemns the other one - the one that claims that there is no such thing as a Sabbath commandment still applying to the saints today.
I agree with Moody's view to the extent that he argues for the continued authority of the real Bible Sabbath given to mankind in Gen 2:3.
But I differ with him in his claim that it can be bent to point at week-day-1 - because such bending would actual be breaking the Sabbath - violating it (which is a point that those who hold the second view - get right).
Thus I am combining the Biblically accurate part of both views and leaving the man-made-tradition part of each - to fall away.
in Christ,
Bob
What foolishness! I suppose you can see the Great Commission--"to go into all the world and preach the gospel," in Genesis 1 and 2 as well.
There is such a thing as progressive revelation. We learn as we progress through the Bible. There is no sabbath in first two chapters of Genesis. The word is not even found there. There are no Ten Commandments, and there is likewise no Great Commission. We learn about all those things much later.
According to your logic every command in the Bible is summed up somehow in Genesis 1 and 2. Where does this eisegesis come from?
This command is given to Israel. The sabbath was a command given to the nation of Israel, and only Israel. If the nation of Israel did not keep they were to be stoned. Do you agree with this punishment for today?
There is no sabbath in Genesis. The word doesn't even appear, much less a command.
But the command to keep the Sabbath is given to Israel. The consequence of not keeping it was death.
The Sabbath was made for mankind.
So was creation made for mankind.
So were the stars and the heavens (Psalm 19:1-3)
So were the angels made for the believers (Heb.1:14).
--Do you worship angels?
All of us agree that the sabbath was Saturday. Moody probably knew that as well. Too bad you can't figure out his vocabulary.
But it does prove to you that they are all "sabbath-breakers" according to SDA standards. You can't have your cake and eat it to. There is only one standard. If Saturday is the Sabbath they were all Sabbath breakers.
They deliberately changed it in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
They knew that the Jews worshiped on Saturday, and the true Sabbath was on Saturday. Sunday is "resurrection day," and because of that it became a day of worship. It was then called "the Christian sabbath."
First day: God created.
Second day: God created.
Third day: God created.
...Sixth day: God created.
Seventh day: God rested from his creation.
Conclusion: Set apart one day in seven for rest. That is the only conclusion one can make from that passage. There is no mention of the word "sabbath." There is no command in Gen.2:3 to keep any day; to remember any day for any reason whatsoever. There is a principle taught and that is all.
He has never said that to the Gentiles. He didn't say that in Genesis.
No they are not. You deceive yourself. Keeping the Sabbath is not recognized by any Baptist. Keeping the Lord's Day is. Why do you misrepresent Baptists. You are simply lying.
Paul taught principles. There is one interpretation but several applications. The applications. The application is still there. It hurts your theology, but it is still there.
There is no where in the Bible where keeping the sabbath holy is a command given to anyone else but the Jews. It is a Jewish command. And the penalty for not keeping it is death. Have you agreed to that?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said: Thus all the documents such as Westminster Confession of Faith, Baptist Confession of Faith, Catholic Catechism, and those who read the Bible and those documents - such as R.C. Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody easily figure out that the day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week as given by God from Eden (Gen 2:3 onward).
You have a "special" brand of "agree disagreeably" going there - I will hand you that.
in Christ,
Bob
You have a "special" brand of "agree disagreeably" going there - I will hand you that.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You can keep contradicting scripture on that point - and then I will just keep quoting scripture on that point to show that your assumption failed the test of scripture.
"From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP" Isaiah 66:23 - and I think that even you know that in the OT - in Isaiah's day the weekly Sabbath of the Word of God - was on Saturday.
As for the NT "The Sabbath MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.
As for the OT - Isaiah 56 provides a specific blessing for gentiles that KEEP the Sabbath "of the Lord Thy God" -
[FONT="]
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Christ condemns the Jews in His day for not allowing this same purpose for God's pre-cross temple to be served - daily.
As I have stated before I don't agree with Spurgeon or Sproul or Moody on everything - but where I do agree - I at least try to "Agree agreeably" with them.
And that practice comes in handy when I do visit Baptist churches (such as the one I visited two weeks ago for one of their revival services). Always helpful to "agree agreeably" on specific points where one can agree.
in Christ,
Bob[/FONT]
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