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Mans nature
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Romans 5:12-19; 1 Cor. 15:21
Gup20
Active Member
Here is my take on the sin nature. For this, we must go back to the beginning - to the first sin.
From this verse, we can see that sin was a choice by Adam and Eve. As such, SIN is an invention of Man, not of God. Jesus calls Satan the "father" of liars, so perhaps you could say it was an invention of Satan and of Man. James confirms who is responsible for sin.
So the result of sin is death because death is a just punishment for sin. Romans says "the wages of sin is death."
In the beginning God set the rules. If you break them, you die. Death was setup as the just punishment for sin. When Adam sins, he is cursed by God and punished with the just punishment of death.
This introduces death, for the very first time, into a creation that God had called "very good." Since God calls death an enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, we know that a creation He calls "very good" would not have included death. Furthermore, Romans 5 tells us that death came as a result of one man's sin:
This verse is usually held up as support for "original sin" but let me challenge that concept. It doesn't say "sin spread to all men" ... but rather it says "death spread to all men." I see this verse as supporting "original death." This makes sense since God didn't curse the world with sin, he cursed it with death! Therefore death, not sin, is perpetual and spreads to all. Thusly, death (or more specifically, our fear of death) becomes the causal agent for the sin nature.
Sin is the bastard offspring of Man and Satan - his lie combined with our selfishness. As a result of man's sin, death came into the world - the just punishment for sin. We of course are incapable of living sinless lives, and therefore we deserve that judgement. Our fear of punishment enslaves us to sin. For example, the hungry man will steal to eat as he is a slave to his flesh out of his fear of death.
Before we get too excited about things, however, we must remember that Adam sinned in the garden prior to death and prior to having any "sin nature." I guess that is the "nature" of beings who have a free will. Free will is the ability to choose the wrong choice.
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
From this verse, we can see that sin was a choice by Adam and Eve. As such, SIN is an invention of Man, not of God. Jesus calls Satan the "father" of liars, so perhaps you could say it was an invention of Satan and of Man. James confirms who is responsible for sin.
Jam 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted [by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
So the result of sin is death because death is a just punishment for sin. Romans says "the wages of sin is death."
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
In the beginning God set the rules. If you break them, you die. Death was setup as the just punishment for sin. When Adam sins, he is cursed by God and punished with the just punishment of death.
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
This introduces death, for the very first time, into a creation that God had called "very good." Since God calls death an enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, we know that a creation He calls "very good" would not have included death. Furthermore, Romans 5 tells us that death came as a result of one man's sin:
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is usually held up as support for "original sin" but let me challenge that concept. It doesn't say "sin spread to all men" ... but rather it says "death spread to all men." I see this verse as supporting "original death." This makes sense since God didn't curse the world with sin, he cursed it with death! Therefore death, not sin, is perpetual and spreads to all. Thusly, death (or more specifically, our fear of death) becomes the causal agent for the sin nature.
Hbr 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Sin is the bastard offspring of Man and Satan - his lie combined with our selfishness. As a result of man's sin, death came into the world - the just punishment for sin. We of course are incapable of living sinless lives, and therefore we deserve that judgement. Our fear of punishment enslaves us to sin. For example, the hungry man will steal to eat as he is a slave to his flesh out of his fear of death.
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Before we get too excited about things, however, we must remember that Adam sinned in the garden prior to death and prior to having any "sin nature." I guess that is the "nature" of beings who have a free will. Free will is the ability to choose the wrong choice.
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Gup20
Active Member
Oh... one other note about "corruption."
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.
The same text says that "THROUGH one man SIN ENTERED" just as much as it says "DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN." The cause is stated first, followed by the consequence. Indwelling sin (Rom. 7:18) does not originate EXTERNAL to fallen man's nature but comes "THROUGH ONE MAN" (cause) and SPREADS by birth (consequence) ending in death. Where there is no sin there is no death and death involves more than final separation between man's material and immaterial self. It is the SEPARATION spiritually between man and God. It is the principle of the laws of conservation NOW at work in the human nature.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gen 1 and 2 point to a sinless holy nature. And so also Romans 5.
The corrupt sin nature is described in Romans 3 and David says he was conceived in sin.
So also Jeremiah stating that the heart is wicked.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Clearly sin is a choice. But the sinful nature is not a choice - we have one at birth. It desires sin - but we do not have to yield to it - IF we choose "By the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8.
Victory over sin is a supernatural action on the part of God and man must choose to engage in it - or not.
in Christ,
Bob
ok...this is interesting! Have not seen it laid out like this!
So are you saying that Adam had sin in him already...because he lusted after what God told him not too?
Same question here...if Adam was sinless...where did lust come in? Wasn't it already there? The desire to disobey God...
Gup20
Active Member
Indeed, sin did enter through Adam, but sin is not perpetual or spread, but rather it is individual.
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Also note that Romans 5:13-14 makes it clear that those between Adam and Moses (when The Law was given) died despite not committing the same sin as Adam - eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and despite their sin not being imputed to them. This is because they inherited death, not sin. (again, the curse was death, not sin)
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Notice it says "death reigned", not "sin reigned," just as it said "death was spread" and not that sin was spread. Notice it says "for all have sinned" meaning each has his own sin, rather than meaning each has Adam's sin.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Note how it says through the offense of one many be "dead"... it doesn't say "many be sinners" it says many be dead.
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Notice here it says that it is NOT like the judgement where there was ONE sin resulting in many deaths, this is many offenses unto justification. This means each of our sin is individual, not the one sin spread in perpetuity. If Adam's sin were to spread in perpetuity, one would need only to forgive the original sin to justify all of humanity. Furthermore, Jesus was born of a woman under sin - therefore Jesus would not have been "sinless" -- he would have inherited Adam's sin. However, if death were spread rather than sin, Jesus could have inherited and experienced death having never sinned. This makes a lot more sense to me.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Note how Paul wishes to be set free from the body of this death, not from the sinful nature. I think he understands they are one in the same.
Someone once said to me that Paul was really making a cop-out here... he was saying "it's not me, it's the devil". But Paul doesn't say that. He says "its not me, its me." As a saved person, he sees a dichotomy within him - his condemned, sinful flesh surrounding his living, righteous spirit. (exactly the picture that Circumcision was meant to foreshadow, by the way). He says in Romans 8 to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. I think he actually demonstrates this in Romans 7 when he identifies his true self as the one he is in the spirit rather than the one he is in the flesh! He has said "its not me, its me" but he has identified the real him as the righteous spirit one who wants to do good. It is interesting that he sets up this battle between the two with the battle happening in His Mind - the only place where the spirit and the flesh overlap.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
You are not dealing with Romans 5:12 correctly. The cause is first stated that "THROUGH one man sin entered into the world" not merely entered into Adam. Moreover "death THROUGH sin" entered the world not merely entered into Adam.
Furthermore, how can "death" be spread to all men without its cause "sin"? You have "death" being spread unrelated to sin. Paul claims that the indwelling "law of sin" is inseparable from "death" (Rom. 7:18,24) - "this body OF DEATH...the law of sin"
Moreover, if this sin producing death in Romans 5:12a is limited only to "one man" (Adam) than how can Paul say it is by "by ONE MAN"S DISOBEDIENCE many were made sinners" or by "the offence OF ONE judgement came upon ALL"????
Does not your interpetation teach the very opposite? Does not your intepretation demand that by individual disobedience that individual is made a sinner rather by the disobedience of Adam? Does not your interpretation demand that by your own offence judgement came upon you rather than by the offence of Adam?
Gup20
Active Member
No, I am saying that Adam had the ability to sin, though not the nature to sin, and not the desire to sin. He had the ability to lust, though he had no knowledge of what lust was.
It is a not a sin to be tempted. It is a sin to act on temptation.
Note James 1 says God doesn't tempt anyone. Satan tempted Adam, capitalizing on Adam's ability to choose to sin. Adam sinned WITHOUT having a sin nature.
Then answer the contextual based objections I provided against that view. You skipped them! Look at my last post.
The context is CIVIL LAW. The principle is simple, the person doing the sin must be prosecuted not those who did not do the sin. Isn't this true concerning those you admit to be sinners BY NATURE already as adults? In the Civil courts in Israel, you do not prosecute the child of a man who murdered a person, it is the one that sinneth that shall die. In the Judicial court in Revelation 20:12-15 each person is judged "according to their works."
However, this text has nothing to how sin entered the world, the sin nature and how death is passed to all men. Indeed, Paul says that "BY ONE MAN'S SIN many were made sinners" in the very same context. But your interpetation of Ezek. 18 and Romans 5:12 repudiates that idea completely. Your view demands that "BY YOUR OWN SIN you are made a sinner."
You have missed his point entirely. He is proving the exact opposite. Because the law of Moses did not exist, and yet INFANTS (and mentally disabled) who could not have possibly died due to WILLFUL SIN (like Adam's sin) proves that their death can only be attributed to "ONE MAN'S SIN many were made sinners"
"by ONE MAN's DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" - v. 19
Gup20
Active Member
Indeed, sin is the cause.... and the consequence is death. That consequence is then what is perpetuated by The Curse. The cause isn't perpetual, but rather the consequence is perpetual. That consequence, then, becomes the cause of the sin nature (Heb 2).
Because death was a part of a perpetual curse God proclaims over all of creation - the just consequence of Adam's sin. Until Jesus, none were without sin, so the consequence was just for all men.
If you take this verse out of the context and isolate it from the rest of chapter 5, sure you could make it mean that. But in context, we can see that "made sinners" makes sense with Hebrews 2 in that the fear of death makes us slaves to sin. Just like Adam didn't need the sin nature to choose to sin, we are not sinners until we sin. Our fear of death makes us slaves to sin.
Yes and no. Yes, it does demand that by individual disobedience that individual is made a sinner. But no, God has already judged the world in Genesis 3 and cursed the world with death. That curse has never been lifted. So we are born UNDER ADAM'S JUDGEMENT. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but only of our own sin (otherwise Jesus would have been guilty of sin). However, death is here as a result of Adam's sin, and it has not been destroyed yet. That death (or rather our fear of it) influences us to sin.
This contradicts your interpretation of Ezekiel 18 where you demand death cannot be perpetuated apart from personal sin. This contradicts the parallel statement of Paul in Romans 12 where he makes them inseparable "sin entered....death by sin" and yet you have death WITHOUT sin being spread to all men.
Again this contradicts your interpretation of Ezek. 18 where you argue death cannot be separated from sin and is the result of sin. Yet you have infants dying without any connection to sin. The death of infants cannot be attributed to personal individual sin by the infant and death is the consequence of CONDEMNATION for sin. Paul says "IN ADAM all die" (1 Cor. 15:21).
I did not provide any meaning! I simply quoted it and that was sufficient for you to admit that it did "mean that" by simple assertion of it!
Notice you say "in the context" but then defend your view by jumping out of the context to another context!
However, in context it refers back to verse 12 and makes perfect sense that Adam acted as a representative for ALL humanity coming from his loins. Likewise, Christ is called the "second" Adam and acts as a representative for all who are "in him" from his spiritual loins (born again). Your theory must reject the substitutionary representative role of Jesus Christ for his people. Hence, Christ could not die "FOR YOU" on Calvary according to your view any more than "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."
Death has no existence where sin has no existence because fear is the consequence of condemnation by sin.
Second, our nature at birth is not like Adam's prefallen nature. The death of infants proves that. You admit that death is the just penalty for sin (Rom. 3:23) in your interpretation of Romans 5:12 but then turn around and try to assert that death can be administered without sin (death of infants) and all others who die before they commit "willful" sin.
This is the necessary duplicity required by all cults when faced with error. Every cult in existence is forced to this duplicit position in regard to their errors.
You interpret Ezek 18 both ways at the same time. We can't be judged by death unless we sin first, but we don't have to be condemned to death because of sin (Adam).
You interpretation is self-contradictory at EVERY POINT. Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:23 make it clear that death is the condemnation for sin not for being human. Yet, you have infants and countless others being subject to the condemnation without sin.
There are loads of scripture that teach infants are born with a sin nature (Job. 14:1-4; 15:15; Psa. 51, 55, etc.).
Gup20
Active Member
I would say that infants and the mentally disabled would be the same as those between Adam and Moses - their sin was not imputed because there was no law. If someone is incapable of understanding the law, then there is no law. These don't die because of sin, they die because of death. If they died because of Adam's sin, there would quite literally be no salvation for infants or mentally disabled persons. They would be guilty of Adams sin with no ability to believe in Christ and be saved. Furthermore, Jesus would also be guilty of Adam's sin and therefore would not have been a sinless and pure sacrifice.
Lets look at v19:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So it is comparing two conditions as similar
1: one mans disobedience many made sinners
2: one mans obedience many made righteous
So these are similar. So in option 2, by Jesus' obedience many are made righteous - let me ask you - does this apply broadly to everyone or is righteousness applied on an individual basis for those who believe? So you would agree that in option 2, Jesus' obedience must coincide with individual faith in order for righteous to come? Can you see that also, then, in option 1 individual sin must combine with Adam's disobedience for someone to be made a sinner?
Now look at verse 16:
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Notice how this is comparing two DISSIMILAR conditions:
1. global judgement by 1 transgression
2. global justification of many transgressions
If we are all guilty of Adam's sin, then only 1 transgression would need to be justified for all to be saved.
What you saying is oxymoronic - "they die because they die" thus the cause equals the results when the Bible gives only one cause for death (Rom. 5:12; 6:23). Again you are contradicting your interpretation of Ezek. 18 where you demand that the condemnation of death cannot result without personal sin. Either death is the direct condemnation of sin or it is not. Make up your mind.
Only if there were no "second" Adam who acted in as a representative man by his own obedience for many!!!! Like I said, your position demands the complete repudation of representation of many by one man on the cross.
Your position completely repudiates the necessity of the incarnation and that is why you pervert the sin nature. The promised redeemer in Genesis 3:15 comes from the seed of "the woman" not Adam or man. Your position repudiates substitutionary atonement as well as representation by one man - Jesus Christ on the cross "for many." The salvation of infants is provided in the very same manner as their damnation - by one man's representative action.
"ALL in Adam" refers to all mankind "born of him" which makes an incarnate born man of woman the exception to this rule.
"ALL in Christ" refers to all those "born" of Him - the "all" given him by the Father (Jn. 6:39).
Or do you believe in UNIVERSAL salvation that "all in Adam" equals "all in Christ"???????? Hence, no one goes to hell????
You are reversing cause and effect. In this passage it is the singular act by one man that is the cause of the effect - sinners, righteous not the reverse as your rationale is attempting to make. Many are made sinners as consequence of the cause of one man's action. Many are made righteous as the consequence of the cause of one man's action.
Do people come to Jesus because they are first given to the Son by the Father? - Jn. 6:37-39? Coming to Christ equals faith in Christ. So which is the cause and which is the consequence??????
You are completely misundestanding his point. He is not denying that representative men are the cause of both consequences for "many"; he is denying that Christ's obedience is FINITE and LIMITED. It took only ONE SIN to make many sinners but the representative work of Christ is sufficient for MANY SINS to make many sinners righteous.
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Gup20
Active Member
This is a straw man. I didn't say death cannot be perpetrated apart from personal sin (in fact, I claimed the opposite). I said death came as a result of Adams sin and I implied it is now a perpetual curse that does not consider sin in it's execution of judgement. However, our guilt (whether or not we deserve the death that is already affecting us) is determined individually. Ezekiel speaks to individual responsibility or guilt for sin, and that the guilt is not inherited, but is individual.
Jesus was the first (and only) to not be guilty of his own sin when he inherited and then experienced death. This was the first and only misapplication of the justice of The Curse, and therefore Jesus deserved something else - Grace. It is this grace that is extended to all who are in Christ. JUST like through Adam, sin came into the world, and death through sin... through Christ grace came into the world and salvation or life by grace. But NOT like Adam, who's one sin caused death to come upon all creation, that grace covers a multitude of sins and is applied on an individual basis for those who believe.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Once again, this is a comparative statement. You are once again, ignoring context and trying to isolate a verse from it's context to gleam its meaning. Like in Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive. We know that "all" will not be made alive, some will die and go to hell. Some will not believe. So the comparison is not the idea of guilt, which your claim that "in adam all die" means that all are guilty of Adam's sin. The comparison is that a man is the cause of both life and death. Just as Adam was the instigator of death, Christ is the instigator of life. Guilt is not a consideration in these verses, but rather it's talking about the human origination of both death and life.
I don't care for the game of tennis. But did you know that scripture says Moses served in Pharoah's courts? I didn't know there was tennis in the Bible!! Pull a verse out of context and then apply your own contextual meaning and you can inflict many unintended meanings on scripture. This is why it is important not to isolate verses from their context.
Well then you haven't been paying attention. I showed you that "death was spread" and that "death reigned" and that the free gift arose from "many transgressions" as context. You are pulling v19 out of THIS context to inflict your interpretation onto it.
Yikes - once again you are seriously pulling scriptures out of their context. 1 Cor 15 isn't talking about anything coming from Jesus' spiritual loins, but rather is a reference to the immortal bodies we are given after our resurrection.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
This is another straw man argument. I have never said this, nor does it even make sense. What difference does it make to the substitutionary representative role of Jesus Christ (what ever the heck you mean by that) whether he is substituting for Adam's guilt or for our guilt. Furthermore, that Romans 5:16 says "many transgressions" not one transgression.
So you believe that all animals are sinners as well? Or, could it simply be that God cursed all of creation with death as a result of Adam's sin?
There is no imputing sin where there is no law. Just as those from Adam to Moses died even though they coudnl't possibly have eaten from the tree of knowledge because they had death, those infants cannot know the law and therefore their is no guilt of sin. Jesus, on the other hand, knew the law and didn't sin. He was the first and ONLY to do so and therefore qualify for grace from the Curse.
I'll deal with these in a future post.
Again, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth! First you claim death cannot be perpetuated apart from sin, then you turn right around and deny that sin is required to perpetuate death which is its only cause. Make up your mind.
That is precisely why you cannot use Ezek. 18 to counter Genesis 3. Ezek refers to personal sin and personal death whereas Romans 3:12,19 does not, but refers to REPRESENTATIVE actions by ONE MAN in behalf of many.
He was "made sin" in the very same way the saved were "made righteous" (2 Cor. 5:21) - through legal imputation based upon representation as the "second" Adam and through regeneration - new creation (Rom. 5:19). He had no sin in his own person just as we have no righteousness in our own person but are "ungodly" in our own person (Rom. 4:5). Righteousness was imputed by representation and imparted through regeneration.
Likewise, Adam's sin is imputed to us legally by representation and imparted through generation as the "first" represenative man.
The incarnation is the cause for him having no indwelling "law of sin" through "generation" from Adam. Death was served to Christ as a LEGAL act of condemnation because he represented "ALL in Christ" chosen "in him" from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
This is utter blasphemy! God never misapplies justice as that very accuasation is a repudiation of God's own immutable just nature.
Christ was JUSTLY condemned to death because he acted as the SECOND Adam representing ALL that were "in Him" - He was "MADE TO BE SIN" as a REPRESENTATIVE man and therefore LEGALLY deserved death in that representative capacity. He was "MADE TO BE SIN" and therefore MADE TO BE LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT SIN.
The context is the resurrection of the body is it not? You don't believe the wicked will be resurrected in their body???????
However, not "all" that are "in Adam" are the same "all" who are "in Christ"! One must be "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) just like they must be created in Adam (Gen. 1:26-27).
If there is no individual guilt for adamic sin there can be no peace by faith in what Christ individually did "for us" either! Your statement is oxymoronic and contradictory to the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are teaching "another gospel" of self-condemnation and thus self-salvation.
You are only condemning your own position as it is nothing but jerking texts out of context and making oxymoronic statements.
He is making a distinction between the lost and saved in the resurrection of their bodies. You must first be created "IN Adam" (Gen. 1:26-27) to be "in Adam" and you must first be represented by Adam to have sin imputed to you and then imparted to you by physical birth.
Likewise, one must first be "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) to be "in Christ" and you must be represented by Christ to have his righteousness imputed to you and then imparted to you by new birth.
You believe what you do because your are ignorant of the principle of divine substitutionary representation by Christ. If you understood it you would repudiate your misinterpretations of scripture that deny his substitutionary work.
1. Adam is called the "FIRST" man while Christ is called the "LAST ADAM" because both acted in a representative substitutionary capacity for "many" or "all in Adam" versus "all in Christ."
2. Romans 5:12-19 is based upon this contrast of TWO men acting in a respresentative substitutionary capacity. You cannot deny one without denying the other and you cannot believe in the substitutionary represenative role of Christ while denying the substutionary representative role of Adam as it is the basis of Adam's role that Christ's role is being compared.
That is precisely why their death cannot be explained by personal disobedience to law! It must be traced to Adam's substitutionary representative role in their behalf.
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