SDA hospitals perform ABORTIONS part 2

[targus]

Starting the discussion over because the other one got hijacked...

And because we have not heard from our resident SDA

____________________________________________________

"...abortions, ELECTIVE abortions, are done in Seventh Day Adventists hospitals..."

"Is the Sabbath commandment, the 4th commandment, somehow more important than the 6th commandment?"

http://www.thenarrowwayministries.or...DA-Church/154/

I wonder how Bob Ryan will spin this?

 

[steaver]

Starting the discussion over because the other one got hijacked...

And because we have not heard from our resident SDA

____________________________________________________

"...abortions, ELECTIVE abortions, are done in Seventh Day Adventists hospitals..."

"Is the Sabbath commandment, the 4th commandment, somehow more important than the 6th commandment?"

http://www.thenarrowwayministries.or...DA-Church/154/

I wonder how Bob Ryan will spin this?

They all get hijacked Lol. :tongue3: You just have to bring it on back now and again.

ps. it appears Bob has no comment, I don't think you will here from him, if you do, it will probably just be a clip and paste from the official SDA website on the issue. Or, he might surprise us! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

I think Targus found a Hospital in the 1970's that allowed some non-SDA doctors to do abortions. Maybe that is where that 29% increase in Catholic abortions over Protestants - was being done.

Targus also found this -

Originally Posted by targus

http://adventlife.wordpress.com/2012...-nic-samojluk/

.
I am not in favor of abortion - but I am also not in favor of your practice of "making stuff up".

In your own link above we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

There are four details that point to a fallacy in your methods.

1. The author of your own article states he does not have all the facts and cannot tell us what the real story is - only annecdotal stories.

2. He admits that the church forbids abortion on demand.

 

[saturneptune]

I think Targus found a Hospital in the 1970's that allowed some non-SDA doctors to do abortions. Maybe that is where that 29% increase in Catholic abortions over Protestants - was being done.

Targus also found this -

Originally Posted by targus

http://adventlife.wordpress.com/2012...-nic-samojluk/
.
I am not in favor of abortion - but I am also not in favor of your practice of "making stuff up".

In your own link above we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

There are four details that point to a fallacy in your methods.

1. The author of your own article states he does not have all the facts and cannot tell us what the real story is - only annecdotal stories.

2. He admits that the church forbids abortion on demand.

I read the link, and read the posts. I do not believe Targus made anything up. He is merely pointing out an important issue that exists in your denomination. While you find it destructive, I find it refreshing.

You are the one that came to the Baptist Board, pointing out the "errors" in Baptist Doctrine, in areas like eternal security, worshipping the Lord on Sunday, and cessation of charasmatic gifts of the Holy Spirit to mention a few. In addition, I do not know how many times you tried to use one of our own confessions, the 1689 one to be specific, against our own beliefs.

This leads to two questions:

1. Is it wrong to perform an abortion on Saturday?

2. If abortions are limited to the health and safety of the mother as you claim, why don't you just pray to God for the healing instead? In fact, why does the SDA need hospitals at all?

 

[targus]

I think Targus found a Hospital in the 1970's that allowed some non-SDA doctors to do abortions.

And the Washington post found more...

"... Seventh-day Adventists whose large worldwide network of 170 hospitals allows elective abortions."

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2011/01/adventists_and_abortion.html

BobRyan may want to keep his "head in the sand" over THIS ISSUE but happily not all members of the SDA Cult are willing to...

"But the denomination may be the only theologically conservative Protestant group that allows elective abortions. Many of their own members didn't know that their worldwide hospital network performed the procedure, which has been quite the discussion on the Adventists for Life Facebook page. A number of posters were shocked to learn the denomination's stance."

BobRyan's defense of

" providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

The SDA doesn't "condone" abortion...

They just "perform" abortions.

 

[Walter]

Bob, did you read the story I posted about the SDA doctors in Thailand that performed abortions on the thousands of refugees that left Vietnam who had become pregnant by rape? The Catholic doctors refused to do the abortions so the SDA doctors performed them. This contradicts your claim that only non-SDA doctors perform abortions in SDA hospitals. Here is more proof that your church condones abortion. This is out of the mouth of GC president, Ted Wilson.

' . . . . ELECTIVE abortions, are done in Seventh Day Adventists hospitals, and this has been going on since the 70's! If I had not heard it with my own ears, I would have had a really hard time believing it...this is how we found out.

We were at Southern Missionary College (called Southern College, today), and it was a Sabbath afternoon, 1981. We were told that the General Conference President - Neil Wilson, (the father of the current GC President - Ted Wilson) was going to be speaking in the afternoon at the College Church, and holding a Question & Answer forum afterwards. We had never heard him speak, so we decided to attend.

After he spoke, someone from the audience raised their hand and asked the question, "Why do our Seventh Day Adventist hospitals perform abortions?" Al and I looked at each other in shock and disbelief, we though, "Surely, OUR church does not perform abortions!" But....Neil Wilson confirmed that the Church hospitals do perform abortions and went on to give the reason why.... He said that if the Church hospitals did not perform abortions, the women would just go to some other hospitals and get them."

We couldn't believe our ears. That was in 1981. It has been 30 years since that time, and our hospitals are still performing abortions. But, as we talk to members of the Church, we are finding out that most members do not know this. The Church has successfully pushed this under the rug, and the members are in the dark.'

http://www.thenarrowwayministries.org/Page/Abortion-The-SDA-Church/154/

This affirms what my SDA friend told me about your church and that this is a dirty little secret that is kept 'hush-hush' from SDA members. Your insistance that abortions are only performed on women when the life of the mother is at stake directly contradicts what the SDA website says. Abortions for women becoming pregnant by rape & incest are
also routinely performed as well as other 'medical or moral' reasons. The door is wide open (as I have shown in my previous posts) for your SDA doctors to murder children.

 

[targus]

In your own link above we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

Thankfully there is at least one prominent SDA willing to tell the truth about SDA's and abortion....

"The excuse Neal Wilson, the then president of the (SDA) General Conference gave to the public was as follows:

“Though we walk the fence, Adventists lean toward abortion rather than against it."

http://adventlife.wordpress.com/2012...-nic-samojluk/

Well that is one SDA's excuse. I wonder what Bob Ryan's excuse is.

As I said SDA's don't "condone" abortion SDA's perform abortions.

 

[Walter]

Thankfully there is at least one prominent SDA willing to tell the truth about SDA's and abortion....

"The excuse Neal Wilson, the then president of the (SDA) General Conference gave to the public was as follows:

“Though we walk the fence, Adventists lean toward abortion rather than against it."

http://adventlife.wordpress.com/2012...-nic-samojluk/

Well that is one SDA's excuse. I wonder what Bob Ryan's excuse is.

As I said SDA's don't "condone" abortion SDA's perform abortions.

Again, Neal Wilson (president of the SDA General Conference) said: "that if the Church hospitals did not perform abortions, the women would just go to some other hospitals and get them."

I am still waiting for Bob to explain how his claim that the SDA do not perform elective abortions jives with the SDA's General Conference president. Not hearing much from Bob on this thread.

 

[targus]

Bumped for BobRyan...

Still waiting for an explain how it is that the SDA church doesn't "codone" abortion...

But does perform them.

 

[BobRyan]

Bumped for BobRyan...

Still waiting for an explain how it is that the SDA church doesn't "codone" abortion...

But does perform them.

As already answered - the church does not run the Hospitals ANd as your OWN link points out the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In your own link above we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

Your problem is that you ignore the data in your own links.

less smoke - more fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

As already answered - the church does not run the Hospitals ANd as your OWN link points out the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.

The SDA set the hospitals up and set the rules.

The the SDA church is not in the building on a day to day basis running the actual operations makes the SDA church no less responsible.

 

[Walter]

As already answered - the church does not run the Hospitals ANd as your OWN link points out the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.



Your problem is that you ignore the data in your own links.

less smoke - more fire.

in Christ,

Bob

It sure sounded like they condone abortion in the case of rape and incest. How about the 'moral and medical' loop-hole in the official statement?

 

[BobRyan]

As already answered - the church does not run the Hospitals ANd as your OWN link points out the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.


Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Targus' own link we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."


Your problem is that you ignore the data in your own links.

less smoke - more fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Walter]

As already answered - the church does not run the Hospitals ANd as your OWN link points out the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.


Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Targus' own link we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."


Your problem is that you ignore the data in your own links.

less smoke - more fire.

in Christ,

Bob

FROM YOUR OWN OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE:

"Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman."

That has pro-choice written all over it!! I've seen the 'moral dilemma' excuse used over and over to justify abortion. It can mean just about anything the woman wants it to mean and the SDA knows that!

You say your church only condones abortion if the mothers life is in danger. How is the mother's life in danger in a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, Bob?

 

[targus]

...the church does not run the Hospitals ANd... the CHURCH does not condone abortion apart from danger to the life of the mother.

So what if your general conference is not running the hospitals "directly"?

The SDA put the rules in place when starting the hospitals and allowed abortion when doing so... and continue to allow it today.

providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand

So what if it is a breach of the "official" SDA position on abortion?

The SDA allows the "breach" to continue.

Abortions on demand is apparently exactly what the SDA wants because they allow it to continue.

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!

The WORDS of the SDA are "we don't condone abortion on demand"...

While the ACTIONS of the SDA are "we provide abortions on demand".

Take your head out of the sand - deal with it!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Targus' own link we have " providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand."

So what if your general conference is not running the hospitals "directly"?

So "in the case" where this or that doctor - or this or that hospital happens to violate that position by the Church they are in breach of church guidelines. And your own link makes that point - as you keep "circling" back to the denomination that is the doing the incidental abortion.

No papacy here - so no direct excommunication button.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

What difference does it make what the SDA "guideline" say about abortion if SDA run hospitals still perform abortion on demand?

In politics it would be called 'plausible deniability".

The SDA set up the hospitals and sets the rules.

If the SDA were really against abortion on demand the SDA would set the hospital rules to FORBID abortion on demand.

Doctors that violate the "guidelines" and perform abortion on demand WOULD BE FIRED.

Hospital administrators that allow abortion on demand WOULD BE FIRED.

Instead SDA hospitals continue to PERFORM ABORTIONS ON DEMAND while the SDA drones continue to say "we don't condone abortion".

Words are words and facts are facts.

Despite the SDA's words - the fact is that SDA hospitals perform abortions on demand for money.

 

[targus]

So "in the case" where this or that doctor - or this or that hospital happens to violate that position by the Church they are in breach of church guidelines. And your own link makes that point - as you keep "circling" back to the denomination that is the doing the incidental abortion.

In the case where this or that doctor...?

This or that hospital happens...?

ALL SDA hospitals perform abortion on demand!

ALL OF THEM!!

It is an every day common practice.

 

[steaver]

I believe the hospital debate is simply a distraction from the core of the problem. The core problem is Seventh Day Adventist have decided to act as God, not much unlike the RCC does, in an attempt to appease society and paganism that has crept into the church.

Look at this official statement from the SDA website;

Guidelines on Abortion

Many contemporary societies have faced conflict over the morality of abortion.* Such conflict also has affected large numbers within Christianity who want to accept responsibility for the protection of prenatal human life while also preserving the personal liberty of women. The need for guidelines has become evident, as the Church attempts to follow scripture, and to provide moral guidance while respecting individual conscience. Seventh-day Adventists want to relate to the question of abortion in ways that reveal faith in God as the Creator and Sustainer of all life and in ways that reflect Christian responsibility and freedom. Though honest differences on the question of abortion exist among Seventh-day Adventists, the following represents an attempt to provide guidelines on a number of principles and issues. The guidelines are based on broad biblical principles that are presented for study at the end of the document

(1) Who cares what contemporary societies think? The bride of Christ is to live and teach according to the scriptures.

(2) There should be no conflict for a Christian on this issue. Personal liberty is framed by the Scripture, it does not conflict with the Scripture.

(3) The website claims their guidelines are based on broad biblical principles. Cite ONE verse, just ONE verse or passage which instructs a person to kill a life in the womb of a woman. There is the Christian answer.

This SDA condoning of the murder of innocent life is appalling! And they have the nerve to look down their noses at a Christian eating some pork!

I would like to see brother BobRyan search his library of scripture answers and post for us just one passage of scripture which supports abortion, just one.

 

[targus]

... providing elective abortions also represent a breach of our church “Guidelines on Abortion” which do not condone abortions on demand.

Neal Wilson, former president of the (SDA) General Conference pretty much blows off the "guidelines"himself when he had the nerve to speak more honestly than you do, BobRyan, as anyone can see from his own words,

“Though we walk the fence, Adventists lean toward abortion rather than against it. Because we realize we are confronted by big problems of hunger and overpopulation, we do not oppose family planning and appropriate endeavors to control population.”

As far as abortion goes, "family planning" means "abortion on demand".

SDA's lean towards abortion and SDA's set up hospitals to perform abortions.

PERIOD.