Featured Hunt vs White

'Whosoever will may come'. Wonder Who makes one will to come, the person? That's what your doctrine teaches.

So this 'must' mean that whosoever makes a determinitive choice can come to Christ by his or her will because according to you, not Scripture, their will is free.

Nonsense.

You've still not answered the Scriptures I've given you.

So go prove to all of us DHK that man, by his will, which you say is free, can come to Christ by this said will. To say so is to admit it is without Divine assistance.

I've already shown this will of man to be corrupt, all of man is sick, including his will.

 

In Acts, The Lord commands all men, everywhere to repent.
Does God command man to do something that is impossible for him to do?
Man himself must make the choice to come to Christ, believing on Christ and repenting of his past sinful and rebellious life--repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. He is not forced; he is not irresistably dragged into such a decision.

The problem for a Calvinist begins with definitions. It normally starts right at Eph.2:1. You will claim that a man is "dead," and then define dead as lifeless, a corpse, etc. Having set the stage on a false premise you come to many false conclusions.

"Death" in the Bible consistently means "separation." Man is not "lifeless." He is made in the image of God. He does have a spirit. The spirit is rendered inoperable by virtue of being separated from God because of sin. It is not lifeless. In fact it is very much alive. He is a child of the god of this world, the prince of the power of this air, children of wrath, children of disobedience, able to communicate with demonic spirits, etc. Satan is alive and well. So is the fallen nature of mankind.

The ministry that God has given to every believer is the ministry of reconciliation. "Therefore be ye reconciled to God." The unsaved must be reconciled to God. He is not a lifeless corpse. He needs to be brought to the place of reconciliation, which is through the cross of Calvary. Then he makes the choice of deciding for Christ or against him. The work of the Holy Spirit is the convicting of sin in his life, as he said he would (John 16:9-11). At the point of salvation the Holy Spirit comes and indwells him. Conversion and salvation are simultaneous for all intents and purposes.

Another problem that the Calvinist has is this matter about faith. Nowhere in the Bible is faith spoken as a gift for the unsaved. It is spoken as a fruit of the Spirit, and even as spiritual gift. God does not give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate or unsaved. The thought of such is ludicrous!
The command is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
It is not, "Believe "with God's faith," and be saved.
There is no such command. We must come to God with our own faith and believe. That is command. Now the accusation will be made; then it is a work's salvation! No, sir it is not. Faith is not a work, and never has been.
Throughout the entirety of the Bible, "A man is justified by faith; and not by works. The two are opposite and always set in opposition one to another.

Thus it amazes me that the Calvinists of this day often appeal to other authorities, disregarding sola scriptura.
And, furthermore, have lost their way, disregarding sola fide.
Which of the other "solas" do you disregard? The neo-Calvinist is really confused.

 

You've given many words and no substance. Wind and cloud yet no rain.

I will reiterate:

Yep. God commands men to do what is impossible for them. Obviously you believe otherwise. He commanded men to keep the law. This was impossible, but you imply it was possible. He commanded repentance as well, which is in addition impossible. See Romans 2 wherein He leads to repentance. But you teach man can will himself to repent.

I take it you've kept the law, and repented on your own power, correct?

Now, did you choose God on your own free will, or by Divine assistance? You teach out of context 'whosoever will' yet I've shown whosoever will is a person whose will has been made willing.

So I take it, all on your own, your will was already willing, you were such a free person so you cast a vote and won. :love2:

Amazing.

And Unbiblical.

You need to rethink your theology. You did nothing on your own free will as far as salvation is concerned. God gets all the glory in salvation yet you take some because you chose in your utter freedom.

Salvation was not via your choice, John 1:13; Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:19 &c. To the contrary it is Sovereign God who chooses.

In addition your 'neo' calvinist accusation is unfounded and shows your complete misunderstanding of doctrine, Spurgeon, Calvinism, Whitefield &c. Lest you forget, you said Whitefield wasn't a Calvinist, yet I shared a quote of his that shows you in error there as well.

Go figure.

You should also apologize to Iconoclast for accusing him of not practicing his doctrine.

:thumbs:

 

Ach

This is a lie and a falsehood.....but we have seen that from you before

His attack was on those who use the catechism.....I let the catechism answer for itself and show how foolish the accusation was

 

Ach said all that eh? :laugh: :laugh:

He has more straw man arguments than the earth has straw. :tongue3:

 

DHK

These come from the scriptures...and it was the very reformers catechisms ,confessions and creeds which give to us nice and simple.The same refprmers and teaching you want to ignore.....can you not see that?

 

P4T thanks for defending the truth...i am still on vacation...just sneaking out a couple of quick posts:thumbsup::thumbsup::type::applause:

 

I see them as private interpretations just as I saw in the RCC.
The RCC through their Catechism interpreted the Bible.
I don't see any difference between that and what you and others that you refer to are doing. You have left the Bible in the dust and look to creeds and catechisms instead. That is the Catholicism I came out of. Why would I return to it?

 

DHK,

I will get back to this more in detail later....it is a good caution you offer.A catechism[question and answers} is only as good as the people and teaching it speaks to.
The one I quote from is completely baptist....very strong local church view,great on sanctification,and Christ centered verses everywhere.

 

A gracious truthful answer.

 

To address the above shallow question begging-strawman perspective on Divine Sovereignty:

Yes, God is Sovereign, “Providentially Sovereign” over His creatures, He is not “Deterministically Sovereign”. God saves in grace according to His genuine Righteous Judgment, which is His True Way (Deut 32:4) of which is conditional upon a response of faith (Rom 4:5). A theology of “Deterministic” Sovereignty being necessarily backed up by the declaration that there is no genuine volition for His creatures to respond excludes any logical means of true or righteous judgment in the matter. God is Providentially Sovereign over the matter of salvation, in this matter He has provided the means that all should come to faith in love of the truth. He has revealed this truth to all; therefore there will be no excuse for any man because of not having the volitional ability based on that they truly do have the means to respond to His influences which they truly will be judged upon, (Rom 1:17-20).

To suggest man has no volition and reasoning abilities whatsoever is hyper-deterministic neo-Calvinism and to merely deny the nature man was divinely created to have, it is to deny the whole of scripture for a boxed-in deterministic philosophical system, which in effect makes the Good News meaningless but to a specially pre-selected few and renders His judgment to be empty and pointless. A system proclaiming deterministic sovereignty sadly denies the true gospel message a believer SHOULD be presenting in the world:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

Here is the true and meaningful, loving message of light, from our God of Love, that an unspoiled believer (Col 2:8) should be concerning himself with and presenting to the world, rather than a message of darkness – doctrines of no real hope and total inability, of course, unless they were lucky enough to be one of the specially pre-selected:

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Very sad that some get so caught up in this “intellectually stimulating” neo-Calvinist Determinist dogma that they neglect the True Nature of God and would discount His Loving plan of redemption from the foundation of the world from being genuinely offered to ALL His creatures to being a secretly disingenuous offer that is really only given through the luck of the draw to the pre-selected few!

It is clear that it is the neo-Calvinists/Determinists that needs to rethink their theology and put these fascinations with philosophical creedal instruction and their so-called “irrefutable truths” behind.

 

Excellent response, Bro. Benjamin! :thumbs: Amen!:godisgood:

 

Ben...what do you mean by your repeated deterministic reference?

 

Benjamin,

I really thought I read that you made much of disagreeing over "proof-text" methods that would attempt to support a view.

But, did you not do that in this post?

Example: You stated a portion of John 1, but you applied it inaccurately to include all humankind having some ability.

Such is NOT given in this passage, in fact John is VERY sensitive to express EXACTLY the point that God is totally in charge and NO humankind has ANY involvement in the process of selection or salvation.


Here is the whole section with bold that DISCREDITS your proof-text post.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

I won't take the time to explain that the light (vs 7,9) that lightens EVERY man is the ten commandments (see the use of past tense - was), nor do I need to explain the word "might" in "all might be saved" (vs 7)is referring to the hope of John and not to be applied to the hope or desire of Christ.


Benjamin, I don't really understand how someone can miss understand that opening of John.

May I suggest that often a view is made askew which results in bias that further distorts the view. As is in cases such as this, the view clings to a portion to the point of dismissing what may be a clarification of that portion.

What John states (last bold part) clarifies ALL the "ALL" words before and just how receives and who is saved.

If John had not included that portion, then you might have some slim ledge in which to build upon, but there is no such support - so your argument fails.

But at least you did post a few verses in attempts of supporting your post.

That in itself is an improvement. I really hope you will continue in this mode of supporting by Scriptures the principles you view as essential.

 

This might be the WORST explanation of scripture I have ever seen. The light is not the Ten Commandments, the Light is Jesus Christ himself.

And this scripture says that Jesus Christ lights every man that comes into the world. That is not "some" men, or the "elect only", but every single man that comes into the world, 100% of all men.

As for verse 13, you have to read verse 12 FIRST. To those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become the sons of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This is being born again, being given the power or authority to become a son of God. God gives this to those who receive Jesus and believe on his name.

Now, you read verse 13 NEXT. This simply explains that being born again is a work of God, not something man can inherit, or not something man can work. No, if you are born again, God must perform this work, you cannot do it even if you will it. But this is only done for those who believe on Jesus.

You BUTCHER the scriptures!

 

Benjamin,

You make much of the "you" found in Romans 10, but again your proof - text fashion has lead you to askew the meaning of the passage.

Here is Romans 10 (which includes your verse):

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Now I won't go into a verse by verse explanation, this post would be far too long.


Look at the word HEART. Does not the Scripture state that what is in the heart WILL come out of the mouth?

So, when a believer responds to salvation and in that process some refer to as "born again" they, just as a new born, cannot help but cry out.

But what must come before all that?

The gospel. For it is the Word of God (Christ is the Word) that penetrates the heathen, implanting the seed in the fertile soil made ready by God's timing and the human is saved - not because they said a certain prayer or repeated a certain mantra.

The believer is saved because the Word finding good earth WILL grow to harvest. Other soil does not respond to harvest.


It is also important to notice that Paul is NOT talking to the heathen lost souls, but he is visiting this part of the letter upon BELIEVERS. He is showing by pointing out from their own experience that because they are saved as evidenced by the heart and the response of the conversation (mouth), that now there is a need of witnessing and evangelizing. He is presenting a quest to them (as evidenced starting in verse 14 and following.

He is also warning them not to be discouraged for even though the Scriptures are given, no ALL will respond, because just as the parable of the soil, not all dirt is prepared by God to receive the seed (Word) the same way. Some don't even have any dirt at all.

But, at least you tried, which really is an improvement!

 

:thumbs: Good read, thanks for posting it.

 

DHK

I understand what you are saying.

I see it this way...each and every group is going to teach something.

DHK....you yourself teach something.What you believe is your "creed".

Everyone can say.....The bible is my creed.In fact most do say something like this,however....the real question is...what do you believe the bible teaches?
Cults say they believe the bible also.....the real question is what do they say it teaches.
The confession of faith lets people know that as a group, those who subscribe to the confession agree on most things contained in it,
I use the 1689 however I let the eldership know I do not believe the roman pope is the anti-christ....
The function of the confession is a study tool to give guidance to those who come to the church.They do not have to be concerned that the church will have WOF heretics in the pulpit as we agree on the main doctrines.

The one i recommend should be on every bible baptists bookshelf.It is a great basis ,or starting point to learn more of the scriptures....

Because catholics took a biblical concept and perverted it....We can and have taken it back and sanctified it for Kingdom purposes.

 

NO Winman.

Do you not see the "was" - what "was" the light given to all humankind?

John didn't use "was" meaning it happened in his past, but that it happened from the time of immediately after Eden.

Now, you ARE correct in stating that "the light was Jesus Christ," for He is the Word, and because the commandments of God are the Word, then He is the light given to ALL humankind - which is the commandments of God written upon ALL humankind's heart.


Verse 13 does not "simply explain" but places exact meaning to the previous verses.

However, let's look carefully at YOUR own statements in the last paragraph you wrote.

You state, "Now, you read verse 13 NEXT. This simply explains that being born again is a work of God, not something man can inherit, or not something man can work."
​

I would agree, but do YOU not hold that a person must have a certain prayer, or confession, or accept, or receive by opening their heart, exercise their human faith, or some other human volition in order for the work of God to take place? Is it not that those very things are MAN generated work?

Salvation is either all of God, without humankind interference other than that of responding and reacting to what God has accomplished in the heart, or it is activated by some humankind work.

It cannot be both. If there is ANY human work it is not God salvation.

You further state, "No, if you are born again, God must perform this work, you cannot do it even if you will it. But this is only done for those who believe on Jesus."​

Do you not see that you cannot hold on to "God must perform this work (salvation), you cannot do it EVEN IF YOU WILL IT," and then put human work by expressing that it is "only done for those who believe on Jesus."

It really isn't possible to hold to both schemes.

Either you have to be one who discounts what John is stating in this opening account in favor of human interaction that must take place for salvation to conclude, or submit that all of salvation from the preparation of the heart by God to receive the Word, to the final glorification in the New Heavens is totally of God.

 

Benjamin,

You cannot defend this idea you repeat over and over DEUT 32:4 does not really say all you want it to say, as the context is on God's judgement.
We have already shown over and over ...God's saves a multitude in Christ.