My thoughts on Calvinism

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

But Paul quoted God as saying He loved Jacob but hated Esau. He referred to them as twins, individuals. I know that there is an application that can be made regarding God's choosing Israel as a favored nation. But the passage itself refers to individuals.

Not at all. It refers to the separate nations of Israel and Edom.

Obadiah 1, NASB
6 "O how Esau will be ransacked,
And his hidden treasures searched out!​

You think this passage speaks of Esau personally? No, of course not. And Neither does Paul in Romans 9:13. He speaks of the nation which inherited Mt. Seir -- Edom -- in Esau's name. Additionally, the Greek miseo can mean hate but is used throughout the New Testament just as it's counterpart in Malachi 1:3, sane', to mean "loved less." You cannot make these read to mean "hate" as they are translated throughout Scripture, in a literal sense. The words are relative to "love" meaning that how God loves Jacob (Israel) looks like "hate" in comparison to how He loves Esau (Edom). God never "hates" anyone, as He could not bless those "hated," and remain God. He blesses them commonly. He blesses us supernaturally.

 

[Mexdeaf]

God never "hates" anyone, as He could not bless those "hated," and remain God. He blesses them commonly. He blesses us supernaturally.

God never hates? He would be surprised to discover that.

• Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
• Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
• Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
• Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
• Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Reworking ...

 

[preacher4truth]

God never hates? He would be surprised to discover that.

• Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
• Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
• Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
• Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
• Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

And there is a big surprise for those who believe Holy God does not express hatred. He in fact does. To understand this basic principle is to stand in awe of Him. Not many do. They see Him as love towards all and towards all sin and thus PC 'christianity' has taken a foothold in churches. Nothing is further from the truth of who He is. Being Holy, hate of sinners and sin is natural.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

He would be surprised to discover that [He never hates anyone].

Really? I think that is what He would be surprised to discover.

There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world (see John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). This love in not conditional -- it is based only on the fact that God is a God of love.

1 John, NASB
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love ...
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.​

God’s love for all of mankind results in the fact that God shows His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent.

2 Peter
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

However, God’s love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin. God is also a God of justice/

2 Thessalonians 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,​

Sin cannot go unpunished forever.

Romans 3
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

The most loving act of eternity is described by Paul.

Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Anyone who ignores God’s love, who rejects Christ as Savior, who denies the Savior who bought him (2 Peter 2:1) will be subject to God’s wrath for eternity (Romans 1:18), not His love (Romans 6:23). God loves everyone unconditionally in that He shows mercy to everyone by not destroying them immediately because of sin. He also provides everything they need for life and the evidence that He is.

Acts 14
17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."​

At the same time, God only has “covenant love” for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

John 3
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."​

Does God love everyone? Yes. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No. Does God love Christians to a different extent than He loves non-Christians? Yes. God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all. God only loves Christians in that only Christians have His eternal grace and mercy and the promise of His forever love in heaven. The unconditional love God has for everyone should bring us to faith in Him, receiving in thankfulness the great conditional love He grants all those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

[saturneptune]

For all the posts against Presbyterians, I found their doctrine sound in the 25 years I was one. I differ on their baptism, form of govrenment and hierarchy, but other than that, they are pretty sound.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Really? I think that is what He would be surprised to discover.

There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world (see John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). This love in not conditional -- it is based only on the fact that God is a God of love.

1 John, NASB
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love ...
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.​

God’s love for all of mankind results in the fact that God shows His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent.

2 Peter
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

However, God’s love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin. God is also a God of justice/

2 Thessalonians 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,​

Sin cannot go unpunished forever.

Romans 3
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

The most loving act of eternity is described by Paul.

Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Anyone who ignores God’s love, who rejects Christ as Savior, who denies the Savior who bought him (2 Peter 2:1) will be subject to God’s wrath for eternity (Romans 1:18), not His love (Romans 6:23). God loves everyone unconditionally in that He shows mercy to everyone by not destroying them immediately because of sin. He also provides everything they need for life and the evidence that He is.

Acts 14
17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."​

At the same time, God only has “covenant love” for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

John 3
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."​

Does God love everyone? Yes. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No. Does God love Christians to a different extent than He loves non-Christians? Yes. God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all. God only loves Christians in that only Christians have His eternal grace and mercy and the promise of His forever love in heaven. The unconditional love God has for everyone should bring us to faith in Him, receiving in thankfulness the great conditional love He grants all those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.

So why does a loving God send anyone to Hell? Why do people hide themselves from His wrath (Revelation 6:15-17)? Why does the Bible again and again speak of God's wrath upon those who deny Him (Romans 1:18, 2:1-8, etc.)?

God indeed is a God of perfect love, but he is also a God of perfect hate.

 

[webdog]

So why does a loving God send anyone to Hell? Why do people hide themselves from His wrath (Revelation 6:15-17)? Why does the Bible again and again speak of God's wrath upon those who deny Him (Romans 1:18, 2:1-8, etc.)?

God indeed is a God of perfect love, but he is also a God of perfect hate.

You are equating Gods love and hate as that of a man.

Doesn't God also say whoever hates is a murder, and the love of God is not in him? Doesn't He also say to love our enemies? Are you implying He holds us to a higher standard than Himself?

He sends people to hell because He is just. A son who commits a crime standing before his father, a judge, would receive the payment required by the law. Love plays no part in the sentencing.

 

[Mexdeaf]

You are equating Gods love and hate as that of a man.

Doesn't God also say whoever hates is a murder, and the love of God is not in him? Doesn't He also say to love our enemies? Are you implying He holds us to a higher standard than Himself?

He sends people to hell because He is just. A son who commits a crime standing before his father, a judge, would receive the payment required by the law. Love plays no part in the sentencing.

We were saying the same thing. You said it better than I did.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So why does a loving God send anyone to Hell?

Please note, His love does not negate His justice. Your question deliberately ignores the character of God, of which I'm sure you are vitally aware of, thereby making the question purely for argument's sake, which is not going to invoke a response. Rather than ask the question, why not attempt to dismantle the logic of my statements?

 

[Yeshua1]

Really? I think that is what He would be surprised to discover.

There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world (see John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). This love in not conditional -- it is based only on the fact that God is a God of love.

1 John, NASB
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love ...
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.​

God’s love for all of mankind results in the fact that God shows His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent.

2 Peter
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

However, God’s love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin. God is also a God of justice/

2 Thessalonians 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,​

Sin cannot go unpunished forever.

Romans 3
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

The most loving act of eternity is described by Paul.

Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Anyone who ignores God’s love, who rejects Christ as Savior, who denies the Savior who bought him (2 Peter 2:1) will be subject to God’s wrath for eternity (Romans 1:18), not His love (Romans 6:23). God loves everyone unconditionally in that He shows mercy to everyone by not destroying them immediately because of sin. He also provides everything they need for life and the evidence that He is.

Acts 14
17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."​

At the same time, God only has “covenant love” for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

John 3
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."​

Does God love everyone? Yes. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No. Does God love Christians to a different extent than He loves non-Christians? Yes. God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all. God only loves Christians in that only Christians have His eternal grace and mercy and the promise of His forever love in heaven. The unconditional love God has for everyone should bring us to faith in Him, receiving in thankfulness the great conditional love He grants all those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.

The truth is that ALl stand already condemned before God, before ever hearing/rejecting jesus!