Featured Preceding Grace & Divine Providence - the Truth, “within a hairs breadth of Calvinism

First, a view of Preceding Grace in contrast to the Determinist’ view which excludes any free action of the creature before salvific Grace is applied, aka – Prevenient Grace, which is not irresistible but does enables and awakens us while maintaining God’s plan of salvation which requires the genuine need for a free volitional response of faith coming from our own hearts:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: “You” is used 4 times in this verse. I think you'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

A few notes regarding the view of Prevenient Grace:

“It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.”

"...the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith."
"The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing [preceding] us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will"

Prevenient grace elicits, "...the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning His will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against Him."
“God has initiated salvation through prevenient grace, and while human beings still maintain God-given free will to respond to that initiative, salvation is still initiated (and ultimately activated), by God, through justifying grace.”

Prevenient Grace:

John 12:32: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. ”

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us. "

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Second, this brings us to another doctrine of Calvinism that would be within a “hairs breadth” of the truth – The Calvinist doctrines focusing on “Divine Sovereignty” but projecting “Deterministic” Divine Sovereignty rather than a view of “Providential” Divine Sovereignty.

Providential Sovereignty:

God prepared the “Way of Salvation” (WOS) from before the foundation for all His creatures. He exercises control and guardianship or maybe better described as management over the WOS through perfect and righteous judgment (Deut 32:4). His grace is genuinely offered to all men and none have an excuse not to respond to His influences (Rom 1:20) - As well it is His will that all men be saved and He is longsuffering in His work to draw us in our love of the “Truth” (2Pet 3:9) which He reveals to all and judges thereby, but He does not deterministically cause them to love the Truth, what He does do is provide the means for the WOS and manage this for all His Divinely designed volitional creatures - IOW’s He is “Providentially Sovereign” not “Deterministically Sovereign” over the world He created.

All God’s ways are judgment in Truth. With truth in judgment comes responsibility and therefore the *genuine ability of His Divinely Designed creatures who gained knowledge and reason to respond to His drawing. God set forth a condition upon all His creatures to accept His free loving offer of grace which is His WOS: Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, *lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” – God providentially placed a Mediator (Jesus Christ/The Word/The Light of the Truth) into all the world over which He is Sovereign and by which His judgment comes after the “counsel” of His will:

Eph 1:6-13
(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

How does predestination along with free actions, or Divine Sovereignty and God’s Providential management by means of Prevenient Grace work together:

"It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves." ~ William Lane Craig

Interesting isn’t it, that all the Calvinist boxed-in interpretations of scriptures which they attempt to force fit into their Deterministic systematic theology would not even be necessary with just a couple of reasonable minor adjustments regarding Divine Sovereignty and the means of Divine Grace! So yes, one might conclude the Calvinists are within a hairs breadth of the truth.

 

You say there is no scripture supporting Prevenient Grace and the reasoning you give is because it is Arminian and expresses choice. :laugh:

Mere Determinist dogma stating either God Deterministically Sovereign or nothing because to be Providentially Sovereign would mean God is only partially sovereign. Easy enough, all I have to do is attack your illogical Deterministic views. Could have sworn I saw you denying being a Determinist a while back, but understandable why the typical Calvinist would want avoid being pinned to terms that logically define their doctrines.

Saved “in Christ”, will get into some detail about the way shortly.

You offer me nothing. John 14:6 has not been demonstrated to support the Deterministic view. “You” clearly don’t understand and/or must resent that the way “you” must come is through genuine faith through your own heart! It is your way to claim love for Him must be pre-determined.

Jesus said, “no man cometh unto the Father but by me” – By any other doctrine (this includes false doctrines which exclude genuine faith), or intersession, He is the Mediator, all the promises of God made before the foundation of the world are fulfilled at this time, revealed that they come in Christ – grace through faith, not grace alone. The promise, the true message to all the world:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: “You” is used 4 times in this verse. You Determinists will be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

You have to have a serious set of blinders on to miss that genuine faith must come from one’s own heart; this requires the ability to respond from their own heart, volition, and volition and determinism are logically mutually exclusive any way you might wish to philosophically splice your system together my friend. Proof-text till the cows come home but your doctrinal designs will never defeat clear logical reasoning to draw out the truth, for God reveals His way in Truth!

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

On and on while you hope to produce more distorted proof-texts. The hyper-Determinists perverts the truth while reading through deterministic glasses in desperation to claim Divine Sovereignty must = Deterministic Sovereignty. They have Determinism on the brain and sadly see things that aren’t there.

Determinism logically leads to theological fatalism through unavoidably attributing evil unto God. When taken to its true ending it leads to a dark gospel of no hope for most and this false teaching should be shunned and condemned by all who believe in the true Light that gives light to everyone in the world and delivers the promise of genuine hope for all that listen and respond in faith out of love for the truth which He reveals to all. None will have an excuse not to respond out of his own heart, despite their “reasoning” that they had no choice, think about it and repent from “your” ways. (Rom 1:20)

 

Yeah, …best look for cover when Logic decides to come to town, it’ll knock you off your imaginary high horses and pin you in it’s dirt, “kind” sir.

:flower:

 

Unfortunately that opponent merely pursues such tactics to impose his systematic theology on others by any means necessary while engaging in fruitless argument and thinks that is what a debate is for.

Example, from opening line in the Op:

My entire post #6 focused on the aforementioned contrast while showing Determinism to be illogical, false and a method of force to fit distortion while at the same time demonstrating through scripture and logic the need for a genuine faith response to be true. Thereby, supporting a view of Prevenient Grace and Divine Providential Sovereignty to be at a minimum a viable and much more reasonable solution to answer the questions concerning the means of grace and the way of salvation. Yet, I get this as a reply:

My post answered the oncoming typical DoGmatic hyper-Determinist rejection to free choice which attempted to offer Determinism as the “way” of salvation to refute Provident Sovereign Grace.

In return, in stereotypical fashion the aforementioned respondent avoided all questions of logic and attempted to revert the debate back into his kind of “argument” to pursue his agenda of embarking on his usual unproductive smokescreen tactics to avoid logically reasoning, once again merely focusing on his continuing tantrum of trying to draw the debate into a fruitless never-ending circular scripture food-fight as that is his "way" to avoid being taken to the mat with logic.

The opponent, demonstrating once again that his only goal in debate is to continue in his fallacious debate tactics and unconscionably attempts to suggest that it was “I” that was going against ethical debate methods while he disingenuously asks:

This continuing off-topic typical tantrum and whining and desperate agenda of the opponent’s insistence to avoid logical discussions and smokescreen the issues has been thoroughly addressed to no avail:

There is hope though, in that in apparent observance of last paragraph above my opponent may be beginning to recognize his inappropriateness of trying to turn every “debate” into a childish and meaningless proof-texting war is not welcomed by me, and as per my first paragraph above, "nor will be".

This he got right! :thumbs:

 

Another one who is desperate to merely engage in the aforementioned practice and avoid logically reasoning for his position, this one doesn't believe he uses human reasoning at all, apparently has some kind of special insight to interpret the scriptures and doesn't need to support his reasoning from his own mind. :laugh:

BTW, Icon I'm still awaiting for you to address your, oops, fine example of "carnal philosophy" and human reasoning you were spewing out (...err, should I say, "trying to bait with") here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87080

I kind of hoped you might continue to show us how you support your non-philosophical reasoning to be logically true, but so far:

 

Is it now?!

Prevenient Grace takes a much more logical doctrinal approach concerning correct scriptural interpretations regarding the means of grace than that which is presented by the doctrines of Deterministic Sovereign Grace as addressed in post #6, thereby supporting the opening statement in the Op.

But I see this opponent is back to his typical aforementioned desperate games of mindlessly suggesting we begin on a meaningless endless circular scriptural food-fight while he ignores the logic already presented which demonstrated “WHY” and “HOW” the scriptures do indeed support Prevenient Grace and not Deterministic Sovereign Grace. He uses the above statement to disingenuously say these scriptures do not exist in an attempt to embark once more on his fruitless agenda!

P.S. I am really disappointed to see your shameless behavior in this thread, I really thought you might be better than this. Sadly, I was wrong. I tried but I'm sorry I couldn't edify you. I hope you can put away this vitriol agenda and learn to improve on your debate skills in the future.

 

Why on earth would you post that in this thread and in total disrespect and disregard of staying on the topic of this thread?!

Do you not have any principles of debate etiquette at all?!

You guys really want to claim that you are interested in logical debate while you pull these types of smokescreens in threads likes this?! Another fine demonstration that the Calvinist here have the understanding and/or goals to engage in an ethical type of debate !!

Icon, I know you're anxious to "argue" for your system, but I'll pursue that debate there, okay?

:BangHead:

P.S. you didn't even post your flippin premises that are up for debate! Nor have posted where it belongs...

:BangHead:

 

Really??? Has the above drawn a logically true conclusion??? “Therefore,” :laugh: :BangHead:

You’ve just given a fine demonstration of your knowledge about logic principles above, now for umpteenth time I’m not interest in “reasoning” to dispute the value of logic of logic merely so you can continue on in your agenda of promoting meaningless games to support your Deterministic System.

However, in grace, and in hopes to edify you on the value of taking a more practical approach to debate through using principles ethically proven to help draw out the truth in an “argument” I will continue through your muck. But…then you need to straighten up and address the topic with the goal to be logical (see thread on Calvinist’ methods) or go away.

Your following attempt to continue your argument/agenda that logical reasoning has no true value is shamefully seen as self-serving, completely juvenile, and exposes absolutely ridiculous ignorance on your part.

IOWs provided it does not attempt to dispute your philosophical system – a system built on logical principles to interpret scriptures to fit within that system! BTW, are you suggesting what comes to your mind is that your reasoning (logic) is somehow above mine??? Elitism again?!? Do you have special insight from God in regards to your thinking (reasoning/logic) for your system? If not, why would such a thing come to your mind???

Your entire argument against logic is full of fallacy (gross error in reasoning), and if you have an ounce of integrity concerning this this matter it should be embarrassing to you that you attempted to argue on such illogical principles.