Preceding Grace & Divine Providence - the Truth, “within a hairs breadth of Calvinism

[Benjamin]

First, a view of Preceding Grace in contrast to the Determinist’ view which excludes any free action of the creature before salvific Grace is applied, aka – Prevenient Grace, which is not irresistible but does enables and awakens us while maintaining God’s plan of salvation which requires the genuine need for a free volitional response of faith coming from our own hearts:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: “You” is used 4 times in this verse. I think you'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

A few notes regarding the view of Prevenient Grace:

“It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.”

"...the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith."
"The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing [preceding] us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will"

Prevenient grace elicits, "...the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning His will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against Him."
“God has initiated salvation through prevenient grace, and while human beings still maintain God-given free will to respond to that initiative, salvation is still initiated (and ultimately activated), by God, through justifying grace.”

Prevenient Grace:

John 12:32: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. ”

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us. "

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Second, this brings us to another doctrine of Calvinism that would be within a “hairs breadth” of the truth – The Calvinist doctrines focusing on “Divine Sovereignty” but projecting “Deterministic” Divine Sovereignty rather than a view of “Providential” Divine Sovereignty.

Providential Sovereignty:

God prepared the “Way of Salvation” (WOS) from before the foundation for all His creatures. He exercises control and guardianship or maybe better described as management over the WOS through perfect and righteous judgment (Deut 32:4). His grace is genuinely offered to all men and none have an excuse not to respond to His influences (Rom 1:20) - As well it is His will that all men be saved and He is longsuffering in His work to draw us in our love of the “Truth” (2Pet 3:9) which He reveals to all and judges thereby, but He does not deterministically cause them to love the Truth, what He does do is provide the means for the WOS and manage this for all His Divinely designed volitional creatures - IOW’s He is “Providentially Sovereign” not “Deterministically Sovereign” over the world He created.

All God’s ways are judgment in Truth. With truth in judgment comes responsibility and therefore the *genuine ability of His Divinely Designed creatures who gained knowledge and reason to respond to His drawing. God set forth a condition upon all His creatures to accept His free loving offer of grace which is His WOS: Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, *lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” – God providentially placed a Mediator (Jesus Christ/The Word/The Light of the Truth) into all the world over which He is Sovereign and by which His judgment comes after the “counsel” of His will:

Eph 1:6-13
(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

How does predestination along with free actions, or Divine Sovereignty and God’s Providential management by means of Prevenient Grace work together:

"It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves." ~ William Lane Craig

Interesting isn’t it, that all the Calvinist boxed-in interpretations of scriptures which they attempt to force fit into their Deterministic systematic theology would not even be necessary with just a couple of reasonable minor adjustments regarding Divine Sovereignty and the means of Divine Grace! So yes, one might conclude the Calvinists are within a hairs breadth of the truth.

 

[agedman]

First,

There is NO Scriptures supporting "Prevenient Grace." The view behind such is strictly Arminian in construction in an attempt to present some state in which the person can express a free choice. Such Grace is not found in Scriptures and is actually an affront to the "unmerited favor" of God.

BTW, the proof text offered in the OP for "Prevenient Grace" are actually out of context offerings that in context do not support that view. I'll not take the time to go through each, and leave the reader to subject the context to the test of support or not.


Second, God is not partially sovereign. God is either God, or He is not.
The Scriptures are clear that God provided not just the "way of salvation" but those that are saved were saved from the foundations of the world. God did not provide a way and then tell man to trek under his own steam. God states through Christ, "I am the way, the truth the life..."

The Ephesians passage offered in the OP is attempting to quote is starting too late. The total shows the determined work of God through Christ in the believer and the hope of the Apostle. Here is the passage:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.



​

I needed to make a break to draw the reader's attention to the underlined and bold sections - both to show the theme, and also to show that it is INDIVIDUALS that were chosen unlike the OP would have one accept.

In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



​

Again a break is necessary that the reader see the emphasis of predestination is by the Will of God "freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Christ)."

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him



​

See, how it is not some kind of "Prevenient Grace" but "according to the riches of His Grace" lavished upon the believer, with "all wisdom and insight." Not some perchance hope that the person makes a decision to accept - but direct and purposed determinism as "He purposed in Him."




Now the next part begins to show the believer security in the inheritance:

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


​

Look carefully. To whom is salvation granted? To those who have ears to hear, HAVING believed were sealed in Him. God is the sovereign. He does the sealing by Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you not see the absolute sovereignty of God as God pledges HIS OWN SELF and claims the believers as HIS POSSESSION? Why - for HIS glory. Not for the praise of man.

15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


​

Can any clearer picture of the absolute sovereignty of God be offered?


Now by use of the very Scriptures the OP endorsed, it is shown that the thinking of the OP is faulty.


The OP relies on some man made contrivance, demanding what the Scriptures do not support and attempting to pervert the true pure salvation


Salvation that from the beginning initial conviction brought by the Holy Spirit to the final glorification of the believer totally is 100 % ALL of God and not one whisper other than praise and thankfulness from the believer.


Without the direct and purposed work of God, no heathen unregenerate would be saved, for all are condemned already.

Without the direct and purposed work of God, the believer's cry of belief would be a hollow shell making lots of noise but having no true substance.

It is the OP view that humankind has some authority over God in recommending, accepting, rejecting or postponing salvation. Scriptures do not support such a view as Whitefield kindly and graciously presented to Wesley.

 

[quantumfaith]

First,

There is NO Scriptures supporting "Prevenient Grace." The view behind such is strictly Arminian in construction in an attempt to present some state in which the person can express a free choice. Such Grace is not found in Scriptures and is actually an affront to the "unmerited favor" of God.

BTW, the proof text offered in the OP for "Prevenient Grace" are actually out of context offerings that in context do not support that view. I'll not take the time to go through each, and leave the reader to subject the context to the test of support or not.


Second, God is not partially sovereign. God is either God, or He is not.
The Scriptures are clear that God provided not just the "way of salvation" but those that are saved were saved from the foundations of the world. God did not provide a way and then tell man to trek under his own steam. God states through Christ, "I am the way, the truth the life..."

The Ephesians passage offered in the OP is attempting to quote is starting too late. The total shows the determined work of God through Christ in the believer and the hope of the Apostle. Here is the passage:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.



​

I needed to make a break to draw the reader's attention to the underlined and bold sections - both to show the theme, and also to show that it is INDIVIDUALS that were chosen unlike the OP would have one accept.

In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



​

Again a break is necessary that the reader see the emphasis of predestination is by the Will of God "freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Christ)."

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him



​

See, how it is not some kind of "Prevenient Grace" but "according to the riches of His Grace" lavished upon the believer, with "all wisdom and insight." Not some perchance hope that the person makes a decision to accept - but direct and purposed determinism as "He purposed in Him."




Now the next part begins to show the believer security in the inheritance:

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


​

Look carefully. To whom is salvation granted? To those who have ears to hear, HAVING believed were sealed in Him. God is the sovereign. He does the sealing by Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you not see the absolute sovereignty of God as God pledges HIS OWN SELF and claims the believers as HIS POSSESSION? Why - for HIS glory. Not for the praise of man.

15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


​

Can any clearer picture of the absolute sovereignty of God be offered?


Now by use of the very Scriptures the OP endorsed, it is shown that the thinking of the OP is faulty.


The OP relies on some man made contrivance, demanding what the Scriptures do not support and attempting to pervert the true pure salvation


Salvation that from the beginning initial conviction brought by the Holy Spirit to the final glorification of the believer totally is 100 % ALL of God and not one whisper other than praise and thankfulness from the believer.


Without the direct and purposed work of God, no heathen unregenerate would be saved, for all are condemned already.

Without the direct and purposed work of God, the believer's cry of belief would be a hollow shell making lots of noise but having no true substance.

It is the OP view that humankind has some authority over God in recommending, accepting, rejecting or postponing salvation. Scriptures do not support such a view as Whitefield kindly and graciously presented to Wesley.

Agedman,

This is precisely why these discussions are so often more than not, fruitless and pointless.

Person A says that "this or that" scripture (or scripture in totality) says or communicates....."this"

Person B says not you are completely wrong, that scripture or this scripture means thus

I think you are wrong to suggest that taking a more pure armininan position is an "affront to the unmerited favor of God".

 

[Iconoclast]

First,

There is NO Scriptures supporting "Prevenient Grace." The view behind such is strictly Arminian in construction in an attempt to present some state in which the person can express a free choice. Such Grace is not found in Scriptures and is actually an affront to the "unmerited favor" of God.

BTW, the proof text offered in the OP for "Prevenient Grace" are actually out of context offerings that in context do not support that view. I'll not take the time to go through each, and leave the reader to subject the context to the test of support or not.


Second, God is not partially sovereign. God is either God, or He is not.
The Scriptures are clear that God provided not just the "way of salvation" but those that are saved were saved from the foundations of the world. God did not provide a way and then tell man to trek under his own steam. God states through Christ, "I am the way, the truth the life..."

The Ephesians passage offered in the OP is attempting to quote is starting too late. The total shows the determined work of God through Christ in the believer and the hope of the Apostle. Here is the passage:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.



​

I needed to make a break to draw the reader's attention to the underlined and bold sections - both to show the theme, and also to show that it is INDIVIDUALS that were chosen unlike the OP would have one accept.

In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



​

Again a break is necessary that the reader see the emphasis of predestination is by the Will of God "freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Christ)."

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him



​

See, how it is not some kind of "Prevenient Grace" but "according to the riches of His Grace" lavished upon the believer, with "all wisdom and insight." Not some perchance hope that the person makes a decision to accept - but direct and purposed determinism as "He purposed in Him."




Now the next part begins to show the believer security in the inheritance:

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


​

Look carefully. To whom is salvation granted? To those who have ears to hear, HAVING believed were sealed in Him. God is the sovereign. He does the sealing by Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you not see the absolute sovereignty of God as God pledges HIS OWN SELF and claims the believers as HIS POSSESSION? Why - for HIS glory. Not for the praise of man.

15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


​

Can any clearer picture of the absolute sovereignty of God be offered?


Now by use of the very Scriptures the OP endorsed, it is shown that the thinking of the OP is faulty.


The OP relies on some man made contrivance, demanding what the Scriptures do not support and attempting to pervert the true pure salvation


Salvation that from the beginning initial conviction brought by the Holy Spirit to the final glorification of the believer totally is 100 % ALL of God and not one whisper other than praise and thankfulness from the believer.


Without the direct and purposed work of God, no heathen unregenerate would be saved, for all are condemned already.

Without the direct and purposed work of God, the believer's cry of belief would be a hollow shell making lots of noise but having no true substance.

It is the OP view that humankind has some authority over God in recommending, accepting, rejecting or postponing salvation. Scriptures do not support such a view as Whitefield kindly and graciously presented to Wesley.

Correct....:thumbs::wavey::applause::thumbs:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Agedman,

This is precisely why these discussions are so often more than not, fruitless and pointless.

Person A says that "this or that" scripture (or scripture in totality) says or communicates....."this"

Person B says not you are completely wrong, that scripture or this scripture means thus

I think you are wrong to suggest that taking a more pure armininan position is an "affront to the unmerited favor of God".

:thumbs::thumbs:Agreed:

Especially:

I think you are wrong to suggest that taking a more pure armininan position is an "affront to the unmerited favor of God

At minimum that statement made no sense, and was simply false. That statement by itself is enough for me not to take the whole post very seriously, or want to think a whole lot about your views on the passages discussed.
Another trite and meaningless gem was this:

God did not provide a way and then tell man to trek under his own steam. God states through Christ, "I am the way, the truth the life..."

 

[Benjamin]

First,

There is NO Scriptures supporting "Prevenient Grace." The view behind such is strictly Arminian in construction in an attempt to present some state in which the person can express a free choice.

You say there is no scripture supporting Prevenient Grace and the reasoning you give is because it is Arminian and expresses choice. :laugh:

Second, God is not partially sovereign. God is either God, or He is not.

Mere Determinist dogma stating either God Deterministically Sovereign or nothing because to be Providentially Sovereign would mean God is only partially sovereign. Easy enough, all I have to do is attack your illogical Deterministic views. Could have sworn I saw you denying being a Determinist a while back, but understandable why the typical Calvinist would want avoid being pinned to terms that logically define their doctrines.

The Scriptures are clear that God provided not just the "way of salvation" but those that are saved were saved from the foundations of the world.

Saved “in Christ”, will get into some detail about the way shortly.

God did not provide a way and then tell man to trek under his own steam. God states through Christ, "I am the way, the truth the life..."

You offer me nothing. John 14:6 has not been demonstrated to support the Deterministic view. “You” clearly don’t understand and/or must resent that the way “you” must come is through genuine faith through your own heart! It is your way to claim love for Him must be pre-determined.

Jesus said, “no man cometh unto the Father but by me” – By any other doctrine (this includes false doctrines which exclude genuine faith), or intersession, He is the Mediator, all the promises of God made before the foundation of the world are fulfilled at this time, revealed that they come in Christ – grace through faith, not grace alone. The promise, the true message to all the world:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: “You” is used 4 times in this verse. You Determinists will be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

You have to have a serious set of blinders on to miss that genuine faith must come from one’s own heart; this requires the ability to respond from their own heart, volition, and volition and determinism are logically mutually exclusive any way you might wish to philosophically splice your system together my friend. Proof-text till the cows come home but your doctrinal designs will never defeat clear logical reasoning to draw out the truth, for God reveals His way in Truth!

The Ephesians passage offered in the OP is attempting to quote is starting too late. The total shows the determined work of God through Christ in the believer and the hope of the Apostle. Here is the passage:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

…see the emphasis of predestination is by the Will of God…

Not some perchance hope that the person makes a decision to accept - but direct and purposed determinism as "He purposed in Him.

God is the sovereign.

Do you not see the absolute sovereignty of God…

Can any clearer picture of the absolute sovereignty of God…

On and on while you hope to produce more distorted proof-texts. The hyper-Determinists perverts the truth while reading through deterministic glasses in desperation to claim Divine Sovereignty must = Deterministic Sovereignty. They have Determinism on the brain and sadly see things that aren’t there.

Determinism logically leads to theological fatalism through unavoidably attributing evil unto God. When taken to its true ending it leads to a dark gospel of no hope for most and this false teaching should be shunned and condemned by all who believe in the true Light that gives light to everyone in the world and delivers the promise of genuine hope for all that listen and respond in faith out of love for the truth which He reveals to all. None will have an excuse not to respond out of his own heart, despite their “reasoning” that they had no choice, think about it and repent from “your” ways. (Rom 1:20)

 

[agedman]

Didn't you just break your "debate tactic" rules you hold so high as so validly of value?

Your post was "off topic" from what the OP is discussing.

So, therefore according to your rules of engagement, it is inappropriate that I respond to your post.

Now, if you want to prove that "Prevenient Grace" and "Providential Sovereignty" is not a man made attempt to read into Scriptures what the Scriptures do not even hint upon, then post to that discussion - for that was part of the OP.

If you want to deliberately confuse, sidetrack, obscure,... (all sorts of words the non-cals have labeled the cals as regularly doing) the issue of the OP, then that is your right as it is any poster on a thread.

Just don't come complaining that Cal's techniques are more sinful than your own - which seemingly you are most desirous to do.

You have yet to show ANY proof other than by proof - text and misapplication that the man made views expressed in the OP have any true Scriptural foundation.

I doubt you can, for frankly the Scriptures do NOT assign multiple graces and multilevel sovereignty to God.

NOT ONE Scripture can be found to actually support such humankind thinking generated because humankind desires some other way than what is truly Scriptural.

 

[Benjamin]

Yeah, …best look for cover when Logic decides to come to town, it’ll knock you off your imaginary high horses and pin you in it’s dirt, “kind” sir.

:flower:

 

[Inspector Javert]

I doubt you can, for frankly the Scriptures do NOT assign multiple graces and multilevel sovereignty to God.

UHhhh...........no....he can't do that, because that isn't the position of the non-Cal...it's just a weird zeitgeist of Calvinist Polemic which thinks in weird terms of:

multiple graces

Whatever weirdness that term means............it's only something Calvinists think of....

Non-Cals don't think that way at all.

Non-Cals have not spent their lifetimes misconstruing the definition of "grace" so poorly that they would think that a term like:

multiple graces

Even makes sense.

Ben isn't thinking of "Multiple Graces"....you are.
Ben is also not thinking in terms of this similarly non-sense term:

multilevel sovereignty to God

That's just a non-existent non-term which means nothing.

 

[Inspector Javert]

agedman- Not some perchance hope that the person makes a decision to accept -

No Arminian or non-Calvinist on this board believes this..."

perchance hope

trash you spew. This is ignorance at best or a deliberate lie at worst. No one supports this idea.

For you to suggest that that is relevant to the argument is to be either preposterously ignorant or intentionally dishonest. I maintain that it's ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. :thumbsup:

 

[Benjamin]

For you to suggest that that is relevant to the argument is to be either preposterously ignorant or intentionally dishonest. I maintain that it's ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately that opponent merely pursues such tactics to impose his systematic theology on others by any means necessary while engaging in fruitless argument and thinks that is what a debate is for.

Example, from opening line in the Op:

First, a view of Preceding Grace in contrast to the Determinist’ view which excludes any free action of the creature before salvific Grace is applied,...

My entire post #6 focused on the aforementioned contrast while showing Determinism to be illogical, false and a method of force to fit distortion while at the same time demonstrating through scripture and logic the need for a genuine faith response to be true. Thereby, supporting a view of Prevenient Grace and Divine Providential Sovereignty to be at a minimum a viable and much more reasonable solution to answer the questions concerning the means of grace and the way of salvation. Yet, I get this as a reply:

Your post was "off topic" from what the OP is discussing.

My post answered the oncoming typical DoGmatic hyper-Determinist rejection to free choice which attempted to offer Determinism as the “way” of salvation to refute Provident Sovereign Grace.

In return, in stereotypical fashion the aforementioned respondent avoided all questions of logic and attempted to revert the debate back into his kind of “argument” to pursue his agenda of embarking on his usual unproductive smokescreen tactics to avoid logically reasoning, once again merely focusing on his continuing tantrum of trying to draw the debate into a fruitless never-ending circular scripture food-fight as that is his "way" to avoid being taken to the mat with logic.

The opponent, demonstrating once again that his only goal in debate is to continue in his fallacious debate tactics and unconscionably attempts to suggest that it was “I” that was going against ethical debate methods while he disingenuously asks:

Didn't you just break your "debate tactic" rules you hold so high as so validly of value?

This continuing off-topic typical tantrum and whining and desperate agenda of the opponent’s insistence to avoid logical discussions and smokescreen the issues has been thoroughly addressed to no avail:

Originally posted by Benjamin:

Perhaps you don’t comprehend that I have no intention of lower my standards of debate and to begin an agenda with you of meaningless circular scriptural food-fights and argument while chasing the entire Determinist TULIP system down within this thread – I obviously can’t help you get the reasoning for this into your skull, but know this, your tantrums and whining have not changed my opinion of your misguided principles and unethical goals in debate (argument), nor will they.

All 5 points of the TULIP vitally hinge on strict Deterministic views in order to logically support them. Free will/volition and Determinism are logically mutually exclusive. If you believe there is no argument between the non-Cal view over the Determinist’ principles which support the TULIP other than over Irresistible grace you are in denial, delusional or have one heck of a lot to learn about my opposition to your position friend.

It is of no surprise to me that my typical opposition will get up in arms because they don’t want to be pinned down on a logical definition of the principles behind Calvinism/Determinism because of the logical conclusions of “Determinism” defeats the Calvinist’ view and brings it into theological fatalism. I hear you telling you’d rather just continue in never-ending poorly interpreted circular scriptural food-fights while making the typical claim that the Bible supports your Determinist views. So what, you wish to continue without using philosophically reasoned logical debate principles to back your claims up. Some, as demonstrated in this thread will simply “appeal to authorities” that their interpretations are correct. I see these methods of argument as virtually meaningless and unproductive towards the goals which I have learned to be ethical in a “philosophical debate” and see a huge difference between the two kinds of arguing.

Once again, by avoiding things such as definitions and logical conclusions you seem to think you’re onto some kind of great debate methods of never-ending proof-texting which you believe help you from ever losing an argument. Well, I emphasize with your desperation to not be pinned down on the definition of Determinism which would bring fatalistic conclusions to your treasured TULIPs and would rip out the roots from under them. But, like it or not, the philosophical methods designed to draw out a true or false conclusions pertaining to the claims and issues made have long exist and the basics of giving ethical reasons to believe a claim is true begins by defining premises, not by raising so many premises that you cloud (smokescreen) the claims beyond any comprehensible conclusions – you may consider that type of argument ethical and meaningful debate, but in good conscience and for ethical reasons I try to avoid getting into such arguments as they are unproductive on many fronts.

I’m sorry you’re so upset that I won’t bother to engage in argument as per your agenda to continually proof-text and jump topics, and that you feel I am trying to be superior somehow for wanting to maintain a standard of philosophical debate principles which I understand to draw out the truth in a debate.

That said, I will ask you to drop the focus on the personal issues you have against me and style of debate, I merely look at personal attacks as more fallacy (Ad Hominem) and if you knew my intensions better you’d find that although I’m admittedly aggressive in attacking the opposing view, and that may irritate you because it is your view, I do my best to keep out of the truly personal attacks and to stay focused on the topic at hand to try to maintain the aforementioned ethics of debate that I have come to learn to respect. It’s probably better if you don’t engage me if you can’t refrain from taking my attacks on your views as personal, because I am an aggressive debater and will continue to define premises, hold the opponent to their claims and insist on sticking to the topic in order to try to come to logical conclusions if one wants to debate my perspectives on a subject.

There is hope though, in that in apparent observance of last paragraph above my opponent may be beginning to recognize his inappropriateness of trying to turn every “debate” into a childish and meaningless proof-texting war is not welcomed by me, and as per my first paragraph above, "nor will be".

So, therefore according to your rules of engagement, it is inappropriate that I respond to your post.

This he got right! :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

You have been answered on this many times and yet you have no where to go so you repeat these meaningless devoid of scripture carnal reasoning,and carnal world philosophy .The scripture is rarely in view with your posts...except your incessant chanting of Deut 32:4 which you use as a stepping stone to ascribe your own meaning to it.

Here is but a sample of your "posting: which is vain words ,not helpful or instructive to any who come here to learn about scripture.....

It is of no surprise to me that my typical opposition will get up in arms because
they don’t want to be pinned down on a logical definition of the principles
behind Calvinism/
Determinism because of the logical conclusions of “Determinism”

defeats the Calvinist’ view and brings it into theological fatalism.

I hear you telling you’d rather just continue in never-ending poorly interpreted circular scriptural food-fights


while making the typical claim that the Bible supports your Determinist views.

So what, you wish to continue without using philosophically reasoned logical debate principles

to back your claims up. Some, as demonstrated in this thread will simply “appeal to authorities” that their interpretations are correct. I see these methods of argument as

virtually meaningless and unproductive towards the goals which I have learned to be ethical in a “philosophical debate”

and see a huge difference between the two kinds of arguing.

You see a huge difference....so did the Apostle Paul that is why he said;

12 For our glorying is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom, but in the grace of God, we did conduct ourselves in the world, and more abundantly toward you;

4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power -

5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless,

7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,

You try and bait people into your human wisdom apart from scripture....which Paul speaks against. carnal philosophy, debate fallacies...etc...anything but truth...that is why no one else responds to most of your posts.

 

[Benjamin]

You try and bait people into your human wisdom apart from scripture....which Paul speaks against. carnal philosophy, debate fallacies...etc...anything but truth...that is why no one else responds to most of your posts.

Another one who is desperate to merely engage in the aforementioned practice and avoid logically reasoning for his position, this one doesn't believe he uses human reasoning at all, apparently has some kind of special insight to interpret the scriptures and doesn't need to support his reasoning from his own mind. :laugh:

BTW, Icon I'm still awaiting for you to address your, oops, fine example of "carnal philosophy" and human reasoning you were spewing out (...err, should I say, "trying to bait with") here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87080

I kind of hoped you might continue to show us how you support your non-philosophical reasoning to be logically true, but so far:

 

[agedman]

No Arminian or non-Calvinist on this board believes this..." trash you spew. This is ignorance at best or a deliberate lie at worst. No one supports this idea.

For you to suggest that that is relevant to the argument is to be either preposterously ignorant or intentionally dishonest. I maintain that it's ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. :thumbsup:

Perhaps after visiting with others on the board and reading more posts, you will change your statement that "no one supports this idea."

If you don't consider that I posted accurate about Prevenient Grace, then go to the thread I started earlier, today and make an argument of refutation.

At least I actually engaged the OP. Just not to the liking of some on this thread.

Some may not agree with my conclusions, but such is the right of the BB posters.

 

[agedman]

UHhhh...........no....he can't do that, because that isn't the position of the non-Cal...it's just a weird zeitgeist of Calvinist Polemic which thinks in weird terms of:

Apparently the OP needs to be reread where it is evident that there are multiple levels of sovereignty being put forth. Now the actual use of "multiple levels of sovereignty" is my term but it remains true and acurate to the OP's intent.

Whatever weirdness that term means............it's only something Calvinists think of....

Non-Cals don't think that way at all.

Non-Cals have not spent their lifetimes misconstruing the definition of "grace" so poorly that they would think that a term like:

Even makes sense.

Ben isn't thinking of "Multiple Graces"....you are.
Ben is also not thinking in terms of this similarly non-sense term:

That's just a non-existent non-term which means nothing.

I can see the weakness of those who hold prevenient grace (or more modernly called preceding grace) as not considering the full historic rendering of that view.

It is important to note that prevenient grace is NOT doctrine that is supportable by Scripture. Even though Nazarene folks have it as part of their doctrinal statement, and Methodists couldn't exist without it, and even some of the reformed have made some adoption of it, there is no Scriptural support - none at all.

There is a link in the OP on prevenient grace started today. I suggest that if there is any actual truth to be found on the subject, that group has done a very balanced work on the subject.

 

[Benjamin]

It is important to note that prevenient grace is NOT doctrine that is supportable by Scripture.

Is it now?!

Prevenient Grace takes a much more logical doctrinal approach concerning correct scriptural interpretations regarding the means of grace than that which is presented by the doctrines of Deterministic Sovereign Grace as addressed in post #6, thereby supporting the opening statement in the Op.

But I see this opponent is back to his typical aforementioned desperate games of mindlessly suggesting we begin on a meaningless endless circular scriptural food-fight while he ignores the logic already presented which demonstrated “WHY” and “HOW” the scriptures do indeed support Prevenient Grace and not Deterministic Sovereign Grace. He uses the above statement to disingenuously say these scriptures do not exist in an attempt to embark once more on his fruitless agenda!

P.S. I am really disappointed to see your shameless behavior in this thread, I really thought you might be better than this. Sadly, I was wrong. I tried but I'm sorry I couldn't edify you. I hope you can put away this vitriol agenda and learn to improve on your debate skills in the future.

 

[agedman]

Is it now?!

Prevenient Grace takes a much more logical doctrinal approach concerning correct scriptural interpretations regarding the means of grace than that which is presented by the doctrines of Deterministic Sovereign Grace as addressed in post #6, thereby supporting the opening statement in the Op.

Did I not challenge your original post that used "proof-text" approach in the vain attempt to prove your "logical doctrinal approach?"

True scholarship will admit that the assumption of prevenient grace is based TOTALLY in human desire - and usually associated with free will / choice. See OP of the prevenient grace thread that has a link for more information that is both factual and balanced on this topic.

The Scripture indicates only TWO areas in which God extends "unmerited favor:" One is a common unmerited favor to all; expressed in such verses as it rains on both the just and unjust. The grace is that directly related to completed salvation (Eph. "By grace are you saved" - past tense) .

There is NTHER Grace even alluded to in the clear reading of Scriptures.

Therefore, your OP is refuted.

But you have another side of the thread I would like to address. It is this use of logic in a vain attempt to manipulate Scriptures.

Now logic is well and good, provided it does not attempt to conform God to humankind thinking. "My thought are far above your thoughts ..." is the verse that immediate comes to mind as I type.

Here are a few "not logical" aspects that are never the less true.

That Christ would not know the day and time of His return - yet that is Scriptures.

That God would allow unregenerate humankind to cause His only begotten Son harm - yet that is Scripture.

That God would take those same very humankind and make them heirs and call them His - yet that is Scripture.

The logic of humankind doesn't always fit "logically" into God's ways.

No one has the right to try to manipulate the Scriptures to fit what to them might seem illogical in attempts to make it logical and palatable to humankind.

That is what prevenient grace actually does attempt to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Another one who is desperate to merely engage in the aforementioned practice and avoid logically reasoning for his position, this one doesn't believe he uses human reasoning at all, apparently has some kind of special insight to interpret the scriptures and doesn't need to support his reasoning from his own mind. :laugh:

BTW, Icon I'm still awaiting for you to address your, oops, fine example of "carnal philosophy" and human reasoning you were spewing out (...err, should I say, "trying to bait with") here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87080

I kind of hoped you might continue to show us how you support your non-philosophical reasoning to be logically true, but so far:

Just saw and answered as per your request..on the other thread....I will put it here also for you.....

Benjamin

Quote:
Okay Icon, if you want to impress and marvel us with your vast knowledge of logic and your methodological expertise in presenting your philosophically principled arguments, why don’t you start by explaining this instead of derailing this thread with your Ad Hominem:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87080
Quote:
Watch resorting to fallacies now!

Those fallacies exist in your world....What you can watch is scriptural responses to your attemped attack...ready my friend


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Poste by Benjamin:
Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."
Can a true conclusion be derived from within my example?
We will see, Icon is about use his two premises above and explain how his argument can be demonstrated to be logically true using ethical philosophical principles to do so.
Take it way Icon!

I will modify this for the sake of clarity....[your premise is bogus]

Benjamin- {B} Since God determines all things that ever happen...did God determine the things Jeffery Dahmer did?

ANY BIBLICAL CALVINIST-{ABC} While God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass,He has also ordained the means to accomplish the ordained end. To say that God determines all things is an attempt to blame God for the sinful behavior of fallen sinful mankind.

So if you are really trying to ask if God is Sovereign over even the evil acts of sinful men we do not have too look too far, we can see the most evil act ever committed among men......

22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;

23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;

24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,


And again....the scripture provides all we need to know for life and godliness
like right here;
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.


Notice my friend Benjamin...the evil acts of sinful men were a part of God's ordained purpose. Peter does NOT speak of carnal logic, debate fallacies, etc. He by the Spirit explains how the evil men rage against God and His electing Covenant love......HE DOES SO BY QUOTING SCRIPTURE...not logically debate formulas.....nope...he quotes from Psalm2

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

Why does he refer to the heathen rage as ...VAIN THINGS??

because they stand opposed to God's eternal purpose which cannot in any way be diminished...dan 4 psalm 115 deut 32


35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.


4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Quote:
Benjamin-"Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

[ABC]-That would be Adam,whose fall into sin and death condemned the whole of mankind to be bound over to sin and death...Rom5:212-21

Quote:
- can I come to know these things also?

[ABC]- sure you can ...just stop whining about debate fallacies and reconcile all the scriptures together,not just the six or seven you misuse.here are some that might help get you started;

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Quote:
Benjamin- thank you....I will look to scripture more than I have been
[ABC]- No problem my friend...believers have always done that....

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


So then my friend, lay down the weapons of your warfare,serve God and confess Him openly
__________________

 

[Benjamin]

Just saw and answered as per your request..on the other thread....I will put it here also for you.....

Why on earth would you post that in this thread and in total disrespect and disregard of staying on the topic of this thread?!

Do you not have any principles of debate etiquette at all?!

You guys really want to claim that you are interested in logical debate while you pull these types of smokescreens in threads likes this?! Another fine demonstration that the Calvinist here have the understanding and/or goals to engage in an ethical type of debate !!

Icon, I know you're anxious to "argue" for your system, but I'll pursue that debate there, okay?

:BangHead:

P.S. you didn't even post your flippin premises that are up for debate! Nor have posted where it belongs...

:BangHead:

 

[Benjamin]

True scholarship will admit… (Appeal to Authority – Elitism)

The Scripture indicates only TWO areas in which God extends "unmerited favor:" (Begging the Question - via merit)

There is NTHER Grace even alluded to in the clear reading of Scriptures. (Rhetoric - Apparently never heard of Grace through faith – Oh wait! Post #6)

Therefore, your OP is refuted.

Really??? Has the above drawn a logically true conclusion??? “Therefore,” :laugh: :BangHead:

But you have another side of the thread I would like to address. It is this use of logic…

You’ve just given a fine demonstration of your knowledge about logic principles above, now for umpteenth time I’m not interest in “reasoning” to dispute the value of logic of logic merely so you can continue on in your agenda of promoting meaningless games to support your Deterministic System.

However, in grace, and in hopes to edify you on the value of taking a more practical approach to debate through using principles ethically proven to help draw out the truth in an “argument” I will continue through your muck. But…then you need to straighten up and address the topic with the goal to be logical (see thread on Calvinist’ methods) or go away.

Your following attempt to continue your argument/agenda that logical reasoning has no true value is shamefully seen as self-serving, completely juvenile, and exposes absolutely ridiculous ignorance on your part.

Now logic is well and good, provided it does not attempt to conform God to humankind thinking. "My thought are far above your thoughts ..." is the verse that immediate comes to mind as I type.

IOWs provided it does not attempt to dispute your philosophical system – a system built on logical principles to interpret scriptures to fit within that system! BTW, are you suggesting what comes to your mind is that your reasoning (logic) is somehow above mine??? Elitism again?!? Do you have special insight from God in regards to your thinking (reasoning/logic) for your system? If not, why would such a thing come to your mind???

Here are a few "not logical" aspects that are never the less true. (IOWs it can only be non-logical mystery as to how it would fit your Deterministic system – no reasoning allowed)

That Christ would not know the day and time of His return - yet that is Scriptures. (Philosophically explained to be true – thereby logical.)

That God would allow unregenerate humankind to cause His only begotten Son harm - yet that is Scripture. (Absolutely logical – Demonstrated by reasoning that the God of Love sacrificing His Son for a purposed plan.)

That God would take those same very humankind and make them heirs and call them His - yet that is Scripture. (You should be aware that at this point it would be logic for me to believe you deny God’s loving Grace can be seen as true, or through logical reasoning.)

The logic of humankind doesn't always fit "logically" into God's ways. (Again, a self-serving question begging statement by someone who assumes a Deterministic philosophical system which was on built on scriptural interpretations being logically evaluated to fit it is God’s true way.)

No one has the right to try to manipulate the Scriptures to fit what to them might seem illogical in attempts to make it logical and palatable to humankind. (IOWs no one has the right to interpret the scriptures apart from how the Determinist’ system has logically manipulated them to fit that system. - a self-serving denial of the ability of anyone outside your system to know the truth as if you are guided by special insights of some kind = another great example of the mindset of Elitism!)

That is what prevenient grace actually does attempt to do. (Are you even aware that you point fingers accusing a philosophical idea to be unethical for using logic while you yourself are grounded in a complete philosophical system that claims to explain the way of grace to be Deterministic on 5 points logically derived to fit that system?!)

Your entire argument against logic is full of fallacy (gross error in reasoning), and if you have an ounce of integrity concerning this this matter it should be embarrassing to you that you attempted to argue on such illogical principles.