Featured Seeking truth about tongues (2)

What you are attempting to do is force the scriptures to fit your system of interpretation instead of conforming your system of interpretation to fit the scriptures. This has been your modus operandi from the very beginning. You are operating your thinking according to the closed system of interpretation found within your fellowship.

You distinction is impossible as Don points out.

1. First, there is no such thing as gifts for "ministry" that are not "spiritual." If they are not "spiritual" they minister nothing but the flesh and are opposed to that which is "spiritual." All gifts are for "service" not are for selfish ends. "love seeketh not its own" but that is exactly your definition of edification by your interpetation of tongues.

2. Second, there are servant gifts (Eph. 4:11-12) but spiritual gifts is the subject introduced in 1 Cor. 12:1.

3. Third, the same gift of tongues is described in verse 10 as in verse 30. The difference is not the gift or the manner in which the gift is used. The difference is that verses 7-10 deals with the origin of gifts and Who it is and how they are dispersed, whereas, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 deals with their order as God placed them in the church (v. 28) and limitations (vv. 29-30).

4. Fourth, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 lists both both gifts of calling and spiritual gifts and denies that the Holy Spirit gives either to all saints.

However, no worries I am sure you can make the scriptures fit your system one way or another.

 

I have read the whole book of 1 Cor. many times! Especially chapters 12-14 when I was studing the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
I do not see in scriptures where God limits the manifestations of the Holy Spirit to just one per person. I see this scriptures as saying that at any given gathering of believers the Lord will manifest different in different people. He will not manifest the same in everyone!

In context of chapter 12 he is speaking of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...If we have the Holy Spirit we can manifest at HIS WILL! He controls when and which one!

As I showed you earlier in every example of the baptism in the Holy Spirit...they all spoke in tongues! Until you understand the difference between diversities, administrations and diversities of operations etc. it will difficult to understand this! ...or it was for me anyway!

Every person that has the Holy Spirit has the power, but the way that power will be used at any given time depends on the purposes of God, and upon our faith and willingness to step out and use what we have been given.

Verses 12-26 are speaking of members in the body and that we are all important and different!

 

It is not a matter of how many times one reads a book, but it is a matter of proper exegesis that determines true understanding.

Your problem is that you fail to see that every member is set in the body to fulfil a particular need - v. 18. The spiritual gift is designed to help that member fulfil that need God has placed them in the body. Again, Paul contradicts your "opinion" by saying that not every member is the eye or the hand whereas you say every member can be the eye or hand.

It is not that every member is restricted to one spiritual gift but that they are given the gift(s) sufficient to fulfil that role God has designed for them to meet in the body. Some parts of the body need more than one spiritual gift to function while others need no sign gifts whatsoever but are "feeble" in comparison.

I don't think you really understand Paul's point in 1 Cor. 12:4-6, but I will save that for another post.

 

Why do you make the simple things hard? He is referring back to those scriptures to show that speaking in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation is like verses 6-12. Simple! So we are to pray for the interpretation so that it WOULD NOT come across as verses 6-12...The correction was DO NOT PRAY IN THE SPIRIT IN CHURCH WITHOUT THE INTERPRETATION!!

Don't you see your interpretation contradicts vs. 2?? Paul is plain that when we speak in tongues we are speaking to God! The EXCEPT in that verse is referring to other ways that the body can be edified other than tongues alone! (Because tongues alone does not edify) If you would look at vs. 26 it makes this much easier to understand!
" How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying"
He is not saying that tongues is a way to speak revelation, knowledge, prophesying or doctrine. They are seperate!

That does not change the meaning of what is being taught by Paul! He is still teaching that tongues without the interpretation does not benefit the church. Whether he uses himself as an example or not?

I do speak with both! Just as Paul says!
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) This might help with what Paul is saying!

He is not condemning it! He is just correcting it in the assembly!

First I would like to point this out...
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)
Did you notice that the word "tongues" is not used in this passage? "Praising God with your spirit" is used but it is plain that it means the same thing as "praising God in tongues" (in the Holy Spirit). THis proves again that "praising God with your spirit" and "praising God in the Spirit" and "praising God in tongues" all mean the same thing.

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words WITH MY UNDERSTANDING, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue"

See you like others want to pick out the scriptures and leave out others that make it plain to understand. Paul makes the distinction between "with the spirit/tongues" and "with the understanding" in verse 19!

 

No, common sense tells you to take the whole chapter and not let one scripture contradict the other with your interpretation! I have explained IN COMMON SENSE....that vs. 6-12 is just explaining what it is like if you speak in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation. The correction to the problem is TO INTERPRET YOUR SPEAKING IN TONGUES SO ALL WILL BE EDIFIED!

My interpretation flows through not only the whole chapter but also the book Acts!
Vs. 2 "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit"
He also uses the term "praying in the spirit" to define tongues...Praying is speaking to God!
Vs. 17 "Giving thanks" is speaking to God!
vs. 28 He tells us if we do not have an interpretation to keep silent IN CHURCH and speak to himself AND GOD!

 

Maybe this will help you...
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) Verse 19 will clarify it even more!

 

So because I do not accept your interpretation you say I have the "spirit of error" and "doctrines of devils"??
I almost laughed at that because I recognize this debat tactic very well!
Anyone that disagrees with you is motivated by satan???

As far as the other 3 points I have addressed...

 

Maybe this will help you.
A.T. Robertson's Greek commentary:

Paul always stresses understanding.

 

The Holy Spirit does not lead everyone to speak in tongues with the interpretation in the assembly/called out ones/ church! So the answer to that question is a "NO!" But those that are baptized in the Holy Spirit can "pray in the spirit" "speak to God"

But you have yet to explain why in Acts 2, 10 and 19 they all spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit UPON.

 

You have no idea where I came from and what I was taught or how I got to what I believe now! But that is all irrevelant to the discussion!

So we are not to build ourselves up? Jude 20 disagrees, with or without you accepting "praying in the Holy Ghost as tongues...he still says BUILD YOURSELF UP!

Servant gifts/ministry gifts...they are the same to me! When you minister to someone you are serving them! In verse 27-28 he is speaking of the servant/ministry gifts as I have shown in a previous post.

I also explained this in a previous post..and he is speaking of servant/ministry gifts in the church!

The Holy Spirit is the gift given (Acts 2:38). 1 Cor. 12-14 is about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit through the believers ..in a church.. with order!

 

Romans 12:4-8 are the list of spiritual gifts...
The offices or "administrations" are found in Ephesians 4:10-11.
Then the "operations" are found in I Corinthians 12:1-14:40.

As we all know... the word "gifts" is in italics, indicating that someone added it..."Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant" (I Corinthians 12:1), . Literally, Paul is speaking of "spiritual matters".
But this thread is about tongues....

 

But why those scriptures in the first place??? That is your problem that you fail to address and your interpretation totally ignores. There would be no contextual need to say those things in verses 6-11 if not for what he says in verses 2-5. Verses 2-5 call for verses 6-11.

The fact you vigorously attempt to skew, pervert, ignore and deny that they were speaking without interpretation in the church and that means only GOD could understand them because it was UNKNOWN to all others. That is simple common sense of verse 2 and why verses 6-1-11 follow and explain why verses 6-11 are even inserted at that point.

Don't you get the term "unknown" and why the translators inserted it? They were speaking without interpreters in the church and therefore the dialects were "UNKNOWN" to all but GOD! Hence, in that condition they spoke only to God. In addition verse 6 proves that tongues was not meant to speak to God but to men and you ignored that fact.

How can any reasonable expositor of God's word even say it contradicts verse 2 when verse 2-5 is expressing the condition that presently existed WITHOUT INTERPRETERS in the church. Where there is no interpretation there is no UNDERSTANDING of what is being said by ANYONE present BUT GOD and therefore he babbles to all except God who understands the dialect perfectly. So simple! So obvious! Otherwise THERE IS NO NEED FOR VERSES 6-11 to be stated at all UNLESS and EXCEPT the conditions of verses 2-5 existed in the church that made dialects unintelligble to all BUT GOD.

That is the IMPROPER use of dialects as he explicitly states the gift of dialects is to men:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Neither have you responded to the proof that gifts are a sign for unbelievers through which God speaks to "this people."

Verse 6 does not say "tongues alone" that is you reading into the verse what it does not say or mean. This is your common practice. If you don't like it you change it.

Verse 6 provides the only value of tongues when used outside of its "sign" value to Israel. It's only value is that its SPEECH provides the following kinds of CONTENT - "doctrine" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. "Revelation" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. Knowledge in connection with these things is a kind of CONTENT. Edification is UNDERSTANDING with the mind specific CONTENT that tongues provide to build one up in the faith.

Verse 26 is found in a completely different context where all spiritual activities must fall under the rule of edification as he continues to show how prophesying can violate that rule equally as well as tongues if used wrongly.

The little word "also" repudiates your whole interpetation of verse 15 (in addition to the immediate context which also repudiates your interpretation). The word "also" does not mean "either/or" as you falsely interpret this text but it means IN ADDITION TO. I will pray with the Spirit IN ADDITION TO praying with understanding" rather than one or the other.

First, the the context does not support your interpretation for many reasons:

1. The introductory word "else" is introducing a negative alternative in direct contradiction to what he asserts in verse 15.

2. The meaning is if you do not speak in tongues with understanding and with the spirit both ("also") then you will not be able to communicate to anyone listening what you have said and they cannot say "amen" to what they do not understand.

You are intentionally interpreting God's Word exactly opposite of what it says and means and that is the sign of a strong demonic presence.

AGain, jerked out of context. Verse 19 cannot be interpeted correctly apart from verses 17 and 20-21. In verse 17 he asserts that he speaks in foreign dilacts more than all of them. His meaning is clear. He first states where he does not speak in foreign dialects (v. 19) and that leaves only where he does and that is in keeping with the divine design of tongues as a "sign" to THIS PEOPLE.

AGain, you are perverting God's Word to suite your own lusts.

 

Every capable exegete understands that scripture is developmental in context and that you cannot possibly interpret the whole chapter until you first follow and rightly interpret the developmental increments in that developing context. So your idea is false and foolish. Besides false and foolish it is the root of your wrong interpretations.

See previous post as I have fully repudiated your interpretation and thinking.

No it does not! Indeed, your interpetation of Acts is more of a mess than your intepretation of 1 Cor. 14.

Prayer is one function in any langauge including Foreign langauges. Singing is another function. However, what provides edification is not mere sounds and not mere sounds understood by all but the right CONTENT. Verse 6 identifies the various types of CONTENT spoken in foreign langauges that make it edifying.

The problem in verse 2-4 is neither understanding of the sounds or the content was being made known to the assembly. Such speaking was babble to men and therefore God alone heard and undestood the content spoken.

No one denies that prayer is addressed to God. Singing can also be addressed to God but NNE CAN KNOW THAT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING BOTH SOUNDS AND CONTENT except God.

Paul's whole point is that GOD ALONE is not the purpose for the gift of foreign langauges OR ELSE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED OF AN INTERPRETER at all. To deny that tongues are for men as well is to simply ignore the whole problem and reason for demanding interpretation.

 

You have no concept of 1 Cor. 12:4-6. Your interpretations are silly for many good contextual based reasons.

For example each in 1 Cor. 12:4-6 is characterized by the word "diversites" or "differences" (same Greek word) in regard to a special Person in the Godhead.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

A. The diversities by the Spirit are listed in verses 7-11.

Spiritual gifts are diverse from each other and it is the Holy Spirit who bestows them to diverse persons according to His soverign will not theirs. The diversities/differences are not only to whom he bestows but to what degree they are bestowed as many have the same gift but not the same measure of power.

B. The diversites under the administration of the Lord Jesus are illustrated and summarized in verses 12-17.

The local church (v. 27) is a metaphorical body (v. 12) of Christ (v. 13) under the administrative leadership of jesus Christ. He administers over a body that has a diverse membership composes of those gifted by the Spirit in verses 7-11.



C. The diversities of operation by the same God are listed in verses 18-30.

He selects and places the gifted member by the Holy Spirit in each particular metaphorial body, thus each church body has its own distinct personality composed of a distinct character of members (v. 18). The body design is determined by God (vv. 19-26) as well as the relative operative significance (v. 28) and operative limitations (vv. 29-30).

God not only "sets' each member in the body as it please him (not us) but determines the significance that each plays in the body (v. 28)

Romans 12 provides service gifts with no sign gifts mentioned
Ephesians 4 provides servant gifts with no sign or service gifts mentioned
1 Cor. 12 provides sign gifts in connection with both service and servant gifts.

 

You have a background of exposures and experiences that forms your present thinking and it is not difficult to see that you did not come up with your system of interpretation by simply studying no other writer than Biblical writers.

First, you are ASSUMING your understanding of Jude 20 is correct and that has not been proven. You have no proof! I can say that because the use of the two phrases "in the spirit" and "with the spirit" are used to describe the very same things - they are interchangable phrases. For example one can be fillled "with the Spirit" and walk "in the Spirit" which are one and the very same thing. To preach, sing, prophesy, pray, work, live "in the Spirit" is only possible by doing so "with the Spirit." Your distinction is purely imaginary with not one ounce of Biblical foundation.

Second, no one denies that prayer among other things aides in building up your selves in regard to "your most holy faith." But there is no mention of praying in foreign langauges. Do you deny that praying under the leadership in ones own langauge does not build you up on your most holy faith????? If so, then those who do not pray in tongues are inferior, but if not, then one serves no better than the other or hinders the Spirit any more than the other.


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

That may be so "to me" (meaning you) but that is not the Biblical teaching. Servant gifts listed in Ephesians 4:11 are special leadership functions in regard to Gods' Word. Apostles and Prophets provided the foundation of God's word - the New Testament. Evangelists are missionaries or "apostles" in the secondary sense of the term (Acts 14) or Church sent/authorized representatives (Acts 13:1-4) which lay the foundations of unity (Eph. 4:3-7) as New Testament congregations bound together with these essential truths.

Pastors "build upon" the Master builder (evangelists/missionary/church planters) reaffirming and reinforcing the same essentials so that the church is no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

 

To explain what tongues without interpretation is like!

No, I do not ignore it! The need for it would be to explain what it was like when they speak in tongues without the interpretation. It does not edify the church!

I have said all along that it was the reason. It was showing what it sounded like when someone did not understand the MEANING of what they were saying!

What you ignore is all other scriptures that I have shared over and over showing and confirming vs. 2 is speaking to God! Praying is speaking to God! Giving thanks is speaking to God. WHen you keep silent and speak to yourself and God...that is still speaking to God! It confirms what he says in vs. 2!

I agree that tongues without the interpretation is not understood by anyone but God! But it is still SPEAKING TO GOD! He is not condeming speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit..he is just correcting doing it in church without the intepretation.

We are to speak to them through revelation, knowledge, by prophesying or doctrine so that it would profit them! Tongues without the interpretation does not profit them! He has already stated that in vs. 5 and tells them in vs. 13 if they speak in a tongue to pray for the interpretation.
Think about what you are saying? He has already told them that tongues without the interpretation can not be understood by men. Why would he turn around and tell them to speak in tongues by prophesying, revelation etc. if man can not understand what what he is saying? THat does not make sense! He is not telling them to speak to man in tongues!

Because you reject what "the rest" and "the refreshing" is! What does Is. say he spoke to them? "To whom He said, "this is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest," And, "this is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear!
So tongues being a manifestation of the Holy Spirit would initiate a rest causing the weary to rest (to console and give consolation to). That is what he said! ANd the people would not hear what he said!

I did not say all those others were spiritual gifts! Why did you leave out prophesy?? Did you not like that word and change it??

The wrong that he was correcting with tongues was speaking without interpretation! Verse 26 shows you that those are other ways of edifying the body...and that was what he was getting accoss in vs. 6!

In addition to is still two ways of praying..you just add the interpretation to it! Which I agree in church! But Paul says in vs. 19 that there are two ways and he speaks in tongue (one way) but in church he speaks another way (with his understanding). WHich confirms what I have been showing you!

THe negative is because there is no interpretation to it! That is what he has been saying through the whole chapter....

I agree with Paul and we should not speak in tongues without the interpretation in church! But there was no interpretation in Acts 2, 10 and 19..why?

You know I could say the same thing about you...but I do not believe you are demon possessed just because you do not believe as I do!
I was once where you are now..defending with the same arguements you are!

I did not interpret it apart, I included it! You are the one that left it out when you were trying to share your interpretation. He is clear in the two...tongues (one way)..his understanding (another way). If tongues were to speak to man then why wouldn't Paul speak in tongues with interpretation by knowledge prophesy etc. as you said could be done?

 

Your interpretaion still contradicts those scriptures I shared!

So Acts 2, 10, 19 shows that only a few spoke in tongues? And they that spoke in tongue were speaking into the air because there was no interpretation????? Who's interpretation is a mess???

Tongues with out interpretation is not edifying! Again, how can he speak in tongues to man using those mentioned in vs. 6? Tongues by themselves can not be understood by man no matter what you speak in them. Also...if this is true as you believe...then why didn't Paul use tongues in that manner in vs. 19?

Becaue that is what tongues is for...speaking to God.
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
Just like in Act 2....some of them also thought it was babble(Acts 2:13)! I quess they did not understand in their own language? So the believers must have been speaking to God and not man! It just so happen that some of them understood in their own language..but some did not!

So that is why we are to speak in tongue with interpretation in the assembly.

To hear someone speak to God is edifying to the body! So when in the assembly it should be interpreted!

 

So we agree that praying in any form builds you up/edifies self? If so then we can both agree with Paul as he states the same thing as Jude! Speaking in tongues edifies self...but it is not a bad thing!

When you minister to the people in any form is serving them!