Seeking truth about tongues (2)

[The Biblicist]

1 Cor. 12:27-30 is speaking of ministry gifts not spiritual gifts, he spoke of spiritual gifts earlier. This will take time to understand..because it takes a lot of studing!....

What you are attempting to do is force the scriptures to fit your system of interpretation instead of conforming your system of interpretation to fit the scriptures. This has been your modus operandi from the very beginning. You are operating your thinking according to the closed system of interpretation found within your fellowship.

You distinction is impossible as Don points out.

1. First, there is no such thing as gifts for "ministry" that are not "spiritual." If they are not "spiritual" they minister nothing but the flesh and are opposed to that which is "spiritual." All gifts are for "service" not are for selfish ends. "love seeketh not its own" but that is exactly your definition of edification by your interpetation of tongues.

2. Second, there are servant gifts (Eph. 4:11-12) but spiritual gifts is the subject introduced in 1 Cor. 12:1.

3. Third, the same gift of tongues is described in verse 10 as in verse 30. The difference is not the gift or the manner in which the gift is used. The difference is that verses 7-10 deals with the origin of gifts and Who it is and how they are dispersed, whereas, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 deals with their order as God placed them in the church (v. 28) and limitations (vv. 29-30).

4. Fourth, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 lists both both gifts of calling and spiritual gifts and denies that the Holy Spirit gives either to all saints.

However, no worries I am sure you can make the scriptures fit your system one way or another.

 

[awaken]

And worse, you've proven your misunderstanding of the gifts of the spirit by not examining the entirety of 1 Cor 12. Look at the verses in between the ones you quoted (verses 12-26). This section of the chapter is yet another rebuke to the church at Corinth telling them that they were wrong for everyone believing that they should each have ALL the spiritual gifts. He explains why each of them (and us) don't have ALL the gifts; because some are the foot (evangelizing) and some are the hand (serving) and some are the head (apostles); but they are all of the same body. (Note: some may disagree with the examples I've used for each of the body parts ; that's okay, and certainly something we could discuss...in another thread, please)

Read carefully what Paul wrote in those verses. The hand has its purpose; the foot has its purpose. The hand cannot try to also be a foot and say it has no need of the foot; because then its trying to serve and walk at the same time. Think about that example that Paul used; the body would have to use the hand to serve; then it would have to stop serving so that it could stand on the hand to move forward. Then it would have to stop moving forward so that it could serve some more.
As Paul says by his example, recognize that the true beauty, the true power of God is exemplified by how He has fashioned His creation to work together, so that we can serve and move forward at the same time. But it takes different parts, different members, not all having the same gift, working together for the good of the body.

Understand this, and you will gain a greater understanding of the rest of the book of 1 Corinthians, as well as a greater understanding of the gifts of the Spirit.

I have read the whole book of 1 Cor. many times! Especially chapters 12-14 when I was studing the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
I do not see in scriptures where God limits the manifestations of the Holy Spirit to just one per person. I see this scriptures as saying that at any given gathering of believers the Lord will manifest different in different people. He will not manifest the same in everyone!

In context of chapter 12 he is speaking of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...If we have the Holy Spirit we can manifest at HIS WILL! He controls when and which one!

As I showed you earlier in every example of the baptism in the Holy Spirit...they all spoke in tongues! Until you understand the difference between diversities, administrations and diversities of operations etc. it will difficult to understand this! ...or it was for me anyway!

Every person that has the Holy Spirit has the power, but the way that power will be used at any given time depends on the purposes of God, and upon our faith and willingness to step out and use what we have been given.

Verses 12-26 are speaking of members in the body and that we are all important and different!

 

[awaken]

Not superior! ! - Awaken

If it is not a "superior" way to pray then why seek it at all, since we all can pray without it?

Paul says we are to desire spiritual gifts!

In addition Paul asks "do all speak in tongues" (1 Cor. 12:29) but the Greek text actually has the word "no" (Gr. me) while the English translates it in a rhetorical question that assumes the answer is "no." Just as not all are apostles! The answer is obvioius but I have learned that you don't seem to be able to discern the obvious. However, in each phrase the Greek word for "no" is found. Paul did not leave it unanswered but said "no" each time. However, your position directly contradicts Paul's "no" as your post with Don says the very opposite, thus directly contradicting Paul.

Not contradict! I explained that not all are called to in the ministry, those in the ministry are equipped with certain gifts of the Spirit in order to fulfill their office or function in the Body. Eph. 4:8 list those ministry offices that God calls them into. 1 Cor. 12:28 list those same ministry gifts but in a different way. "Apostle, prophet and teacher" are in the Eph. list. He also mentions the the ministry of helps because those in the ministry of helps assist those called to the "five fold" minstry. Miracles and Gifts of healing are referring to the evangalist in Eph. 4:11. (Acts 8:5-7; Acts 21:8) Philip is a good example of this ministry. Government is referring to the Pastoral office because he governs or shepherds the local body. Then he list "diversities of tongues"...and the answer is "NO" because not all are called into speak in tongues as a ministry gift. He is not speaking of when people are baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues..because Acts shows that everyone spoke in tongues. Again...ministry gifts are only refer to those who are called into the ministry.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have read the whole book of 1 Cor. many times! Especially chapters 12-14 when I was studing the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

It is not a matter of how many times one reads a book, but it is a matter of proper exegesis that determines true understanding.

I do not see in scriptures where God limits the manifestations of the Holy Spirit to just one per person.

Your problem is that you fail to see that every member is set in the body to fulfil a particular need - v. 18. The spiritual gift is designed to help that member fulfil that need God has placed them in the body. Again, Paul contradicts your "opinion" by saying that not every member is the eye or the hand whereas you say every member can be the eye or hand.

It is not that every member is restricted to one spiritual gift but that they are given the gift(s) sufficient to fulfil that role God has designed for them to meet in the body. Some parts of the body need more than one spiritual gift to function while others need no sign gifts whatsoever but are "feeble" in comparison.

I don't think you really understand Paul's point in 1 Cor. 12:4-6, but I will save that for another post.

 

[awaken]

But two ways with the spirit AND with the understanding. - Awaken

We went over this verse by verse and you had no response when we went over it but now simply return and assert what you previously could not answer! Don't you remember???? Apparently not! So again here is what you were unable to answer:

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Note the "wherefore" in verse 13. It is a grammatical connection that calls the reader back to verses 6-12 to make application of verses 6-13 to what he is about to introduce in verse 13-15.

Why do you make the simple things hard? He is referring back to those scriptures to show that speaking in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation is like verses 6-12. Simple! So we are to pray for the interpretation so that it WOULD NOT come across as verses 6-12...The correction was DO NOT PRAY IN THE SPIRIT IN CHURCH WITHOUT THE INTERPRETATION!!

Remember, in verse 6 he lists some various forms of expression for the uses of tongues

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Hence, tongues is for SPEAKING TO YOU or COMMNICATING INFORMATION TO MEN contrary to your denial. The various content or manner in which tongues are expressed are (1) revelation; (2) knowledge; (3) prophesying; (4) doctrine and later (v. 15)he adds "pray" and "sign." In other words, tongues/dialects can be used to express EVERYTHING you can with your own native dialect and that "TO YOU" or to men. Paul directly contradicts your denial that tongues is for communicating TO YOU - TO MEN.

Don't you see your interpretation contradicts vs. 2?? Paul is plain that when we speak in tongues we are speaking to God! The EXCEPT in that verse is referring to other ways that the body can be edified other than tongues alone! (Because tongues alone does not edify) If you would look at vs. 26 it makes this much easier to understand!
" How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying"
He is not saying that tongues is a way to speak revelation, knowledge, prophesying or doctrine. They are seperate!

While verses 6-12 refers to the public use of tongues, verses 13-15 deals with the PERSONAL use of tongues as he switches from the "church" to the use of the personal SINGULAR pronouns "he" and "I" in verses 13-15. He applies the afore said definition of edify to PERSONAL USE in verses 13-15 noted by the word "wherefore" in verse 13.

That does not change the meaning of what is being taught by Paul! He is still teaching that tongues without the interpretation does not benefit the church. Whether he uses himself as an example or not?

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


His definition of "edify" is spelled out clearly in verses 7-11. There must be a clear "distinction" (v. 7) in contrast to an "uncertain sound" (v. 8). That which is spoken must be "easy to understand" (v. 9) so you understand the "meaning" of the voice (v. 11) in contrast to the sound of a "barbarian" (v. 11). If the use of any gift by any person regardless of the LOCATION where they exercise it does not meet this definition of edification then it is of NO PROFIT to them or to those listening.

Your interpretation of verse 15 is based upon jerking the verse out of its developmental context. You are perverting its meaning as Paul uses it in this context. You are making it a positive example whereas Paul is making it a negative example of something he says HE WILL NOT DO.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Verse 13 - "wherefore" apply the rule of application to your PERSONAL USE of tongues which requires PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of your speaking in tongues.

Verse 14 Why you should apply the rule of application to your personal use of tongues. Because it violates the rule of application which requires UNDERSTANDING WITH YOUR MIND.

Verse 15 Paul's conclusion in regard to personal use of tongues without understanding is that it is worthless -"What is it then?" Whatever, it is, Paul will have NONE OF IT as he goes on to say what He will do and it is not as you say. He will not have it one way OR the other. He will not speak "in the spirit" OR "with my understanding." There is no "OR" in his concluson. He will only speak with BOTH or not at all.

I do speak with both! Just as Paul says!
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) This might help with what Paul is saying!

He does not condone speaking "in the spirit" but condemns it. He does not suggest either/or but demands BOTH or "what it it then" - PROFITLESS if not both.

He is not condemning it! He is just correcting it in the assembly!

Not only does he reject your EITHER OR use of tongues but demands all personal use of tongues according to edificaiton requires BOTH "in the spirit" AND "with my understanding" but requires both to any who might be listening OUTSIDE the church. He does not say "occupieth the church" but "occupieth the room of the unlearned."

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
.

First I would like to point this out...
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)
Did you notice that the word "tongues" is not used in this passage? "Praising God with your spirit" is used but it is plain that it means the same thing as "praising God in tongues" (in the Holy Spirit). THis proves again that "praising God with your spirit" and "praising God in the Spirit" and "praising God in tongues" all mean the same thing.

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words WITH MY UNDERSTANDING, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue"

See you like others want to pick out the scriptures and leave out others that make it plain to understand. Paul makes the distinction between "with the spirit/tongues" and "with the understanding" in verse 19!

 

[awaken]

However, is that how Awaken interpets verse 2????? No! Awaken does not interpret or see verse 2 as the preceding problem that verses 6-11 is the solution but Awaken sees verse 2 as the NORMAL use of a foreign dialect and indeed one proper use of foreign dialects and that is to speak to God. Therefore,according to Awaken's interpretation there is no contextual warrant or purpose for verses 6-11 to be found at this point in the context other than arbritary design. Awaken cannot see the obvious because Awaken is so committed to esctatic utterances that any common sense interpretation of scripture must be twisted any way posible to justify this ungodly and demonic experience.

No, common sense tells you to take the whole chapter and not let one scripture contradict the other with your interpretation! I have explained IN COMMON SENSE....that vs. 6-12 is just explaining what it is like if you speak in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation. The correction to the problem is TO INTERPRET YOUR SPEAKING IN TONGUES SO ALL WILL BE EDIFIED!

My interpretation flows through not only the whole chapter but also the book Acts!
Vs. 2 "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit"
He also uses the term "praying in the spirit" to define tongues...Praying is speaking to God!
Vs. 17 "Giving thanks" is speaking to God!
vs. 28 He tells us if we do not have an interpretation to keep silent IN CHURCH and speak to himself AND GOD!

 

[awaken]

Awaken you say that tongues are of two types (1) in the Spirit and (2) with understanding.

The only place both of these phrases occur is in 1 Cor. 14:15:

15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You interpret this verse to each EITHER/OR but Paul uses the word "also" twice denying it is an EITHER/OR application but inclusive of both or neither. The word "also" demands inclusive of the other in addition to the one being described. He is repudiating your interpretation completely and totally.

Maybe this will help you...
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) Verse 19 will clarify it even more!

 

[awaken]

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The KJV translates the Greek text in a rhetorical fashion that calls for no to each question. However, the Greek text actually contains the word "no" in every phrase and would read like this:

Not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all are workers of miracles. Not all have the gifts of healing. Not all speak with tongues. Not all interpet.

Notice that Awaken on every major point asserts exactly the opposite of what Paul repudiates!

1. He repudiates that all can or should speak in tongues - 1 Cor. 12:29-20 - Awaken asserts the opposite

2. He repudiates that there is an either/or tongue speaking in the spirit versus with the mind. - 1 Cor. 14:15 - Awaken asserts the opposite

3. He repudiates that tongues are designed to speak to God but rather are designed to speak to men. - 1 Cor. 14:6,21-22; Isa. 28:14 - Awaken asserts the opposite

What kind of "spirit" repudiates the Holy Spirit's inspired words? - 1Jn. 4:6; 1 Tim. 4:1

So because I do not accept your interpretation you say I have the "spirit of error" and "doctrines of devils"??
I almost laughed at that because I recognize this debat tactic very well!
Anyone that disagrees with you is motivated by satan???

As far as the other 3 points I have addressed...

 

[DHK]

Maybe this will help you...
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) Verse 19 will clarify it even more!

Maybe this will help you.
A.T. Robertson's Greek commentary:

1 Corinthians 14:15

With the understanding also (kai tōi no‹). Instrumental case of nous. Paul is distinctly in favour of the use of the intellect in prayer. Prayer is an intelligent exercise of the mind.
And I will sing with the understanding also (psalō de kai tōi no‹). There was ecstatic singing like the rhapsody of some prayers without intelligent words. But Paul prefers singing that reaches the intellect as well as stirs the emotions. Solos that people do not understand lose more than half their value in church worship. Psallō originally meant to play on strings, then to sing with an accompaniment (Eph_5:19), and here apparently to sing without regard to an instrument.

Paul always stresses understanding.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not superior! ! - Awaken

Paul says we are to desire spiritual gifts!

First, prayer is not the only use of the gift of dialects (14:6,15) as you can use it for anything you can do in English - prophesy, sing, teach doctrine, reveal a revelation, sing, preach, etc. So the gift of dialects is hardly restricted to praying.

Second, by claiming prayer in dialects is praying "in the Spirit" you are denying that all prayer in your own dialect is praying "in the Spirit." Remember, we provided hard Biblical evidence to prove that praying "with" and "in" are inseparable as you cannot possibly pray "in" the Spirit if you are not also praying "with" the Spirit. Go back to the Biblical evidence I presented before attempting to respond or you will be embarassed.

Not contradict! I explained

Your explanations are not inspired! The Word of God is the only inspired Word we have from God and even from your perspective it is at least FINAL authority over the present opinions of men regardless of their claims.

Your explanation stands in direct contradiction to verse 10 and verse 30. You can't have it both ways.

all are called to in the ministry, those in the ministry are equipped with certain gifts of the Spirit in order to fulfill their office or function in the Body. Eph. 4:8 list those ministry offices that God calls them into. 1 Cor. 12:28 list those same ministry gifts but in a different way.

Your reasoning was fine until you applied it to verse 28. Verse 28 includes more than the public ministry offices but spirtual gifts in addition to ministry funcitons in the body. However, verses 6-11 do not refer to the public ministry (Eph. 4:8-12) but to the common member in the body as presented in verses 12-27 and yet verse 10 lists tongues equally to verse 30. Again, verse 10 compared to verse 30 repudiates your "opinion."

Second, the ministry function of apostle is listed in the same manner with "tongues." They are not two different public ministry functions but verse 28 is listing the order of importance in two different categories (1) ministry functions (apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.) and (2) gifts. Verse 29-30 denies that either ministry functions or gifts are options available to all believers. Your idea is like "musical chairs" but Paul's idea is designed persons for certain functions in the local church body (v. 27) some functions are public leadership ministry functions while others are follower functions necessary for the body to meet its mission. The gifts match the design for the member. Verses 14-18 contradicts your musical chair hypothesis. If your musical chair hypothesis were correct than all could be the eye rather than Paul' s clear repudiation that all can't be the eye. Neither does he qualify it "one service at a time" as you do - that is your manipulation of scripture to make it fit your system.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

those called to the "five fold" minstry.

Read verses 1-3 and especially verse 3. Those things listed in verses 3-7 are essentials for any local church body to remain united as a body. All members are called to be united on these things. There are no special members called to these things but these things are the "bond of unity" that keeps the body together at Ephesus or Corinth. The function of the ministry in verses 11-12 is to lay down these foundations of unity so that the body is not tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Ahhh you are simply destroying the meaning of the immediate context to suite your make believe doctrines.

The Apostles and prophets provide the inspired Word of God as the basis or foundation upon which these essentails rest. The Evangelist plants churches by laying these things in the lives. The Pastor teacher confirms and reaffirms these things by continued teaching

Then he list "diversities of tongues"...and the answer is "NO" because not all are called into speak in tongues as a ministry gift. He is not speaking of when people are baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues..because Acts shows that everyone spoke in tongues. Again...ministry gifts are only refer to those who are called into the ministry.

This is pure fantasy imagination! Verse 10 proves you are wrong as it is listed in a context or regular believers among spiritual gifts in a context that denies that tongues are available to all beleivers but only those to whom the Holy Spirit sovereignly bestows (v. 11).

If you restrict verses 28-30 to merely ministry functions then again Paul denies all within that category are apostles or can speak in tongues either. However, according to your "musical chairs" hypothesis in one meeting a person is not an apostle but in another meeting or circumcstance they might be an apostle.

When are you going to let the Biblical context determine the Biblical meaning instead of forcing it into your external system of doctrine??

 

[awaken]

Once again you're trying to make distinctions that aren't there.

You would have us believe that the first part of 1 Cor 12 talks about spiritual gifts; while the last part of 1 Cor 12 talks about ministry gifts. EXCEPT that both sections talk about the same abilities; for example, the working of miracles and divers tongues in v10; as opposed to the worker of miracles and diversities of tongues in v28-30.

So if you were correct, we'd have leadership in the body who have the gift of languages; but we'd also have lay people who have the gift of tongues...but that would be confusing, because who determines which one is the lay person and which one is the leader if they both have the same gift?

Instead, you need to seriously study what "church" is.

The Holy Spirit does not lead everyone to speak in tongues with the interpretation in the assembly/called out ones/ church! So the answer to that question is a "NO!" But those that are baptized in the Holy Spirit can "pray in the spirit" "speak to God"

But you have yet to explain why in Acts 2, 10 and 19 they all spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit UPON.

 

[awaken]

What you are attempting to do is force the scriptures to fit your system of interpretation instead of conforming your system of interpretation to fit the scriptures. This has been your modus operandi from the very beginning. You are operating your thinking according to the closed system of interpretation found within your fellowship.

You have no idea where I came from and what I was taught or how I got to what I believe now! But that is all irrevelant to the discussion!

You distinction is impossible as Don points out.

1. First, there is no such thing as gifts for "ministry" that are not "spiritual." If they are not "spiritual" they minister nothing but the flesh and are opposed to that which is "spiritual." All gifts are for "service" not are for selfish ends. "love seeketh not its own" but that is exactly your definition of edification by your interpetation of tongues.

So we are not to build ourselves up? Jude 20 disagrees, with or without you accepting "praying in the Holy Ghost as tongues...he still says BUILD YOURSELF UP!

2. Second, there are servant gifts (Eph. 4:11-12) but spiritual gifts is the subject introduced in 1 Cor. 12:1.

Servant gifts/ministry gifts...they are the same to me! When you minister to someone you are serving them! In verse 27-28 he is speaking of the servant/ministry gifts as I have shown in a previous post.

3. Third, the same gift of tongues is described in verse 10 as in verse 30. The difference is not the gift or the manner in which the gift is used. The difference is that verses 7-10 deals with the origin of gifts and Who it is and how they are dispersed, whereas, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 deals with their order as God placed them in the church (v. 28) and limitations (vv. 29-30).

I also explained this in a previous post..and he is speaking of servant/ministry gifts in the church!

4. Fourth, 1 Cor. 12:28-30 lists both both gifts of calling and spiritual gifts and denies that the Holy Spirit gives either to all saints.

The Holy Spirit is the gift given (Acts 2:38). 1 Cor. 12-14 is about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit through the believers ..in a church.. with order!

 

[awaken]

I don't think you really understand Paul's point in 1 Cor. 12:4-6, but I will save that for another post.

Romans 12:4-8 are the list of spiritual gifts...
The offices or "administrations" are found in Ephesians 4:10-11.
Then the "operations" are found in I Corinthians 12:1-14:40.

As we all know... the word "gifts" is in italics, indicating that someone added it..."Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant" (I Corinthians 12:1), . Literally, Paul is speaking of "spiritual matters".
But this thread is about tongues....

 

[The Biblicist]

Why do you make the simple things hard? He is referring back to those scriptures to show that speaking in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation is like verses 6-12. Simple! So we are to pray for the interpretation so that it WOULD NOT come across as verses 6-12...The correction was DO NOT PRAY IN THE SPIRIT IN CHURCH WITHOUT THE INTERPRETATION!!

But why those scriptures in the first place??? That is your problem that you fail to address and your interpretation totally ignores. There would be no contextual need to say those things in verses 6-11 if not for what he says in verses 2-5. Verses 2-5 call for verses 6-11.

The fact you vigorously attempt to skew, pervert, ignore and deny that they were speaking without interpretation in the church and that means only GOD could understand them because it was UNKNOWN to all others. That is simple common sense of verse 2 and why verses 6-1-11 follow and explain why verses 6-11 are even inserted at that point.

Don't you get the term "unknown" and why the translators inserted it? They were speaking without interpreters in the church and therefore the dialects were "UNKNOWN" to all but GOD! Hence, in that condition they spoke only to God. In addition verse 6 proves that tongues was not meant to speak to God but to men and you ignored that fact.

Don't you see your interpretation contradicts vs. 2??

How can any reasonable expositor of God's word even say it contradicts verse 2 when verse 2-5 is expressing the condition that presently existed WITHOUT INTERPRETERS in the church. Where there is no interpretation there is no UNDERSTANDING of what is being said by ANYONE present BUT GOD and therefore he babbles to all except God who understands the dialect perfectly. So simple! So obvious! Otherwise THERE IS NO NEED FOR VERSES 6-11 to be stated at all UNLESS and EXCEPT the conditions of verses 2-5 existed in the church that made dialects unintelligble to all BUT GOD.

Paul is plain that when we speak in tongues we are speaking to God!

That is the IMPROPER use of dialects as he explicitly states the gift of dialects is to men:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Neither have you responded to the proof that gifts are a sign for unbelievers through which God speaks to "this people."

The EXCEPT in that verse is referring to other ways that the body can be edified other than tongues alone![/ (Because tongues alone does not edify) If you would look at vs. 26 it makes this much easier to understand!
" How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying"
He is not saying that tongues is a way to speak revelation, knowledge, prophesying or doctrine. They are seperate!

Verse 6 does not say "tongues alone" that is you reading into the verse what it does not say or mean. This is your common practice. If you don't like it you change it.

Verse 6 provides the only value of tongues when used outside of its "sign" value to Israel. It's only value is that its SPEECH provides the following kinds of CONTENT - "doctrine" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. "Revelation" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. Knowledge in connection with these things is a kind of CONTENT. Edification is UNDERSTANDING with the mind specific CONTENT that tongues provide to build one up in the faith.

Verse 26 is found in a completely different context where all spiritual activities must fall under the rule of edification as he continues to show how prophesying can violate that rule equally as well as tongues if used wrongly.

I do speak with both! Just as Paul says!
"Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit - by the Holy Spirit that is within me; but I will also pray intelligently - with my mind and understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15, AMP) This might help with what Paul is saying!

The little word "also" repudiates your whole interpetation of verse 15 (in addition to the immediate context which also repudiates your interpretation). The word "also" does not mean "either/or" as you falsely interpret this text but it means IN ADDITION TO. I will pray with the Spirit IN ADDITION TO praying with understanding" rather than one or the other.

First I would like to point this out...
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)

First, the the context does not support your interpretation for many reasons:

1. The introductory word "else" is introducing a negative alternative in direct contradiction to what he asserts in verse 15.

2. The meaning is if you do not speak in tongues with understanding and with the spirit both ("also") then you will not be able to communicate to anyone listening what you have said and they cannot say "amen" to what they do not understand.

You are intentionally interpreting God's Word exactly opposite of what it says and means and that is the sign of a strong demonic presence.

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words WITH MY UNDERSTANDING, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue"

AGain, jerked out of context. Verse 19 cannot be interpeted correctly apart from verses 17 and 20-21. In verse 17 he asserts that he speaks in foreign dilacts more than all of them. His meaning is clear. He first states where he does not speak in foreign dialects (v. 19) and that leaves only where he does and that is in keeping with the divine design of tongues as a "sign" to THIS PEOPLE.

AGain, you are perverting God's Word to suite your own lusts.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, common sense tells you to take the whole chapter and not let one scripture contradict the other with your interpretation!

Every capable exegete understands that scripture is developmental in context and that you cannot possibly interpret the whole chapter until you first follow and rightly interpret the developmental increments in that developing context. So your idea is false and foolish. Besides false and foolish it is the root of your wrong interpretations.

I have explained IN COMMON SENSE....that vs. 6-12 is just explaining what it is like if you speak in tongues WITHOUT the interpretation. The correction to the problem is TO INTERPRET YOUR SPEAKING IN TONGUES SO ALL WILL BE EDIFIED!

See previous post as I have fully repudiated your interpretation and thinking.

My interpretation flows through not only the whole chapter but also the book Acts!

No it does not! Indeed, your interpetation of Acts is more of a mess than your intepretation of 1 Cor. 14.

Vs. 2 "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit"
He also uses the term "praying in the spirit" to define tongues...Praying is speaking to God!
Vs. 17 "Giving thanks" is speaking to God!
vs. 28 He tells us if we do not have an interpretation to keep silent IN CHURCH and speak to himself AND GOD!

Prayer is one function in any langauge including Foreign langauges. Singing is another function. However, what provides edification is not mere sounds and not mere sounds understood by all but the right CONTENT. Verse 6 identifies the various types of CONTENT spoken in foreign langauges that make it edifying.

The problem in verse 2-4 is neither understanding of the sounds or the content was being made known to the assembly. Such speaking was babble to men and therefore God alone heard and undestood the content spoken.

No one denies that prayer is addressed to God. Singing can also be addressed to God but NNE CAN KNOW THAT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING BOTH SOUNDS AND CONTENT except God.

Paul's whole point is that GOD ALONE is not the purpose for the gift of foreign langauges OR ELSE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED OF AN INTERPRETER at all. To deny that tongues are for men as well is to simply ignore the whole problem and reason for demanding interpretation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 12:4-8 are the list of spiritual gifts...
The offices or "administrations" are found in Ephesians 4:10-11.
Then the "operations" are found in I Corinthians 12:1-14:40.

As we all know... the word "gifts" is in italics, indicating that someone added it..."Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant" (I Corinthians 12:1), . Literally, Paul is speaking of "spiritual matters".
But this thread is about tongues....

You have no concept of 1 Cor. 12:4-6. Your interpretations are silly for many good contextual based reasons.

For example each in 1 Cor. 12:4-6 is characterized by the word "diversites" or "differences" (same Greek word) in regard to a special Person in the Godhead.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

A. The diversities by the Spirit are listed in verses 7-11.

Spiritual gifts are diverse from each other and it is the Holy Spirit who bestows them to diverse persons according to His soverign will not theirs. The diversities/differences are not only to whom he bestows but to what degree they are bestowed as many have the same gift but not the same measure of power.

B. The diversites under the administration of the Lord Jesus are illustrated and summarized in verses 12-17.

The local church (v. 27) is a metaphorical body (v. 12) of Christ (v. 13) under the administrative leadership of jesus Christ. He administers over a body that has a diverse membership composes of those gifted by the Spirit in verses 7-11.



C. The diversities of operation by the same God are listed in verses 18-30.

He selects and places the gifted member by the Holy Spirit in each particular metaphorial body, thus each church body has its own distinct personality composed of a distinct character of members (v. 18). The body design is determined by God (vv. 19-26) as well as the relative operative significance (v. 28) and operative limitations (vv. 29-30).

God not only "sets' each member in the body as it please him (not us) but determines the significance that each plays in the body (v. 28)

Romans 12 provides service gifts with no sign gifts mentioned
Ephesians 4 provides servant gifts with no sign or service gifts mentioned
1 Cor. 12 provides sign gifts in connection with both service and servant gifts.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have no idea where I came from and what I was taught or how I got to what I believe now! But that is all irrevelant to the discussion!

You have a background of exposures and experiences that forms your present thinking and it is not difficult to see that you did not come up with your system of interpretation by simply studying no other writer than Biblical writers.

So we are not to build ourselves up? Jude 20 disagrees, with or without you accepting "praying in the Holy Ghost as tongues...he still says BUILD YOURSELF UP!

First, you are ASSUMING your understanding of Jude 20 is correct and that has not been proven. You have no proof! I can say that because the use of the two phrases "in the spirit" and "with the spirit" are used to describe the very same things - they are interchangable phrases. For example one can be fillled "with the Spirit" and walk "in the Spirit" which are one and the very same thing. To preach, sing, prophesy, pray, work, live "in the Spirit" is only possible by doing so "with the Spirit." Your distinction is purely imaginary with not one ounce of Biblical foundation.

Second, no one denies that prayer among other things aides in building up your selves in regard to "your most holy faith." But there is no mention of praying in foreign langauges. Do you deny that praying under the leadership in ones own langauge does not build you up on your most holy faith????? If so, then those who do not pray in tongues are inferior, but if not, then one serves no better than the other or hinders the Spirit any more than the other.


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Servant gifts/ministry gifts...they are the same to me! When you minister to someone you are serving them! In verse 27-28 he is speaking of the servant/ministry gifts as I have shown in a previous post.

That may be so "to me" (meaning you) but that is not the Biblical teaching. Servant gifts listed in Ephesians 4:11 are special leadership functions in regard to Gods' Word. Apostles and Prophets provided the foundation of God's word - the New Testament. Evangelists are missionaries or "apostles" in the secondary sense of the term (Acts 14) or Church sent/authorized representatives (Acts 13:1-4) which lay the foundations of unity (Eph. 4:3-7) as New Testament congregations bound together with these essential truths.

Pastors "build upon" the Master builder (evangelists/missionary/church planters) reaffirming and reinforcing the same essentials so that the church is no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

 

[awaken]

But why those scriptures in the first place???

To explain what tongues without interpretation is like!

That is your problem that you fail to address and your interpretation totally ignores. There would be no contextual need to say those things in verses 6-11 if not for what he says in verses 2-5. Verses 2-5 call for verses 6-11.

No, I do not ignore it! The need for it would be to explain what it was like when they speak in tongues without the interpretation. It does not edify the church!

The fact you vigorously attempt to skew, pervert, ignore and deny is that they were speaking without interpretation in the church and that means only GOD could understand them because it was UNKNOWN to all others. That is simple common sense of verse 2 and why verses 6-1-11 follow and explain why verses 6-11 are even inserted at that point.

I have said all along that it was the reason. It was showing what it sounded like when someone did not understand the MEANING of what they were saying!

Don't you get the term "unknown" and why the translators inserted it? They were speaking without interpreters in the church and therefore the dialects were "UNKNOWN" to all but GOD! Hence, in that condition they spoke only to God. In addition verse 6 proves that tongues was not meant to speak to God but to men and you ignored that fact.

What you ignore is all other scriptures that I have shared over and over showing and confirming vs. 2 is speaking to God! Praying is speaking to God! Giving thanks is speaking to God. WHen you keep silent and speak to yourself and God...that is still speaking to God! It confirms what he says in vs. 2!

How can any reasonable expositor of God's word even say it contradicts verse 2 when verse 2-5 is expressing the condition that presently existed WITHOUT INTERPRETERS in the church. Where there is no interpretation there is no UNDERSTANDING of what is being said by ANYONE present BUT GOD and therefore he babbles to all except God who understands the dialect perfectly. So simple! So obvious! Otherwise THERE IS NO NEED FOR VERSES 6-11 to be stated at all UNLESS and EXCEPT the conditions of verses 2-5 existed in the church that made dialects unintelligble to all BUT GOD.

I agree that tongues without the interpretation is not understood by anyone but God! But it is still SPEAKING TO GOD! He is not condeming speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit..he is just correcting doing it in church without the intepretation.

That is the IMPROPER use of dialects as he explicitly states the gift of dialects is to men:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

We are to speak to them through revelation, knowledge, by prophesying or doctrine so that it would profit them! Tongues without the interpretation does not profit them! He has already stated that in vs. 5 and tells them in vs. 13 if they speak in a tongue to pray for the interpretation.
Think about what you are saying? He has already told them that tongues without the interpretation can not be understood by men. Why would he turn around and tell them to speak in tongues by prophesying, revelation etc. if man can not understand what what he is saying? THat does not make sense! He is not telling them to speak to man in tongues!

Neither have you responded to the proof that gifts are a sign for unbelievers through which God speaks to "this people."

Because you reject what "the rest" and "the refreshing" is! What does Is. say he spoke to them? "To whom He said, "this is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest," And, "this is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear!
So tongues being a manifestation of the Holy Spirit would initiate a rest causing the weary to rest (to console and give consolation to). That is what he said! ANd the people would not hear what he said!

Verse 6 does not say "tongues alone" that is you reading into the verse what it does not say or mean. This is your common practice. If you don't like it you change it.

Verse 6 provides the only value of tongues when used outside of its "sign" value to Israel. It's only value is that its SPEECH provides the following kinds of CONTENT - "doctrine" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. "Revelation" is a kind of CONTENT not another spiritual gift. Knowledge in connection with these things is a kind of CONTENT. Edification is UNDERSTANDING with the mind specific CONTENT that tongues provide to build one up in the faith.

I did not say all those others were spiritual gifts! Why did you leave out prophesy?? Did you not like that word and change it??

Verse 26 is found in a completely different context where all spiritual activities must fall under the rule of edification as he continues to show how prophesying can violate that rule equally as well as tongues if used wrongly.

The wrong that he was correcting with tongues was speaking without interpretation! Verse 26 shows you that those are other ways of edifying the body...and that was what he was getting accoss in vs. 6!

The little word "also" repudiates your whole interpetation of verse 15 (in addition to the immediate context which also repudiates your interpretation). The word "also" does not mean "either/or" as you falsely interpret this text but it means IN ADDITION TO. I will pray with the Spirit IN ADDITION TO praying with understanding" rather than one or the other.

In addition to is still two ways of praying..you just add the interpretation to it! Which I agree in church! But Paul says in vs. 19 that there are two ways and he speaks in tongue (one way) but in church he speaks another way (with his understanding). WHich confirms what I have been showing you!

First, the the context does not support your interpretation for many reasons:

1. The introductory word "else" is introducing a negative alternative in direct contradiction to what he asserts in verse 15.

THe negative is because there is no interpretation to it! That is what he has been saying through the whole chapter....

2. The meaning is if you do not speak in tongues with understanding and with the spirit both ("also") then you will not be able to communicate to anyone listening what you have said and they cannot say "amen" to what they do not understand.

I agree with Paul and we should not speak in tongues without the interpretation in church! But there was no interpretation in Acts 2, 10 and 19..why?

You are intentionally interpreting God's Word exactly opposite of what it says and means and that is the sign of a strong demonic presence.

You know I could say the same thing about you...but I do not believe you are demon possessed just because you do not believe as I do!
I was once where you are now..defending with the same arguements you are!

AGain, jerked out of context. Verse 19 cannot be interpeted correctly apart from verses 17 and 20-21. In verse 17 he asserts that he speaks in foreign dilacts more than all of them. His meaning is clear. He first states where he does not speak in foreign dialects (v. 19) and that leaves only where he does and that is in keeping with the divine design of tongues as a "sign" to THIS PEOPLE.

AGain, you are perverting God's Word to suite your own lusts.

I did not interpret it apart, I included it! You are the one that left it out when you were trying to share your interpretation. He is clear in the two...tongues (one way)..his understanding (another way). If tongues were to speak to man then why wouldn't Paul speak in tongues with interpretation by knowledge prophesy etc. as you said could be done?

 

[awaken]

Every capable exegete understands that scripture is developmental in context and that you cannot possibly interpret the whole chapter until you first follow and rightly interpret the developmental increments in that developing context. So your idea is false and foolish. Besides false and foolish it is the root of your wrong interpretations.

Your interpretaion still contradicts those scriptures I shared!

No it does not! Indeed, your interpetation of Acts is more of a mess than your intepretation of 1 Cor. 14.

So Acts 2, 10, 19 shows that only a few spoke in tongues? And they that spoke in tongue were speaking into the air because there was no interpretation????? Who's interpretation is a mess???

Prayer is one function in any langauge including Foreign langauges. Singing is another function. However, what provides edification is not mere sounds and not mere sounds understood by all but the right CONTENT. Verse 6 identifies the various types of CONTENT spoken in foreign langauges that make it edifying.

Tongues with out interpretation is not edifying! Again, how can he speak in tongues to man using those mentioned in vs. 6? Tongues by themselves can not be understood by man no matter what you speak in them. Also...if this is true as you believe...then why didn't Paul use tongues in that manner in vs. 19?

The problem in verse 2-4 is neither understanding of the sounds or the content was being made known to the assembly. Such speaking was babble to men and therefore God alone heard and undestood the content spoken.

Becaue that is what tongues is for...speaking to God.
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
Just like in Act 2....some of them also thought it was babble(Acts 2:13)! I quess they did not understand in their own language? So the believers must have been speaking to God and not man! It just so happen that some of them understood in their own language..but some did not!

No one denies that prayer is addressed to God. Singing can also be addressed to God but NNE CAN KNOW THAT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING BOTH SOUNDS AND CONTENT except God.

So that is why we are to speak in tongue with interpretation in the assembly.

Paul's whole point is that GOD ALONE is not the purpose for the gift of foreign langauges OR ELSE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED OF AN INTERPRETER at all. To deny that tongues are for men as well is to simply ignore the whole problem and reason for demanding interpretation.

To hear someone speak to God is edifying to the body! So when in the assembly it should be interpreted!

 

[awaken]

First, you are ASSUMING your understanding of Jude 20 is correct and that has not been proven. You have no proof! I can say that because the use of the two phrases "in the spirit" and "with the spirit" are used to describe the very same things - they are interchangable phrases. For example one can be fillled "with the Spirit" and walk "in the Spirit" which are one and the very same thing. To preach, sing, prophesy, pray, work, live "in the Spirit" is only possible by doing so "with the Spirit." Your distinction is purely imaginary with not one ounce of Biblical foundation.

Second, no one denies that prayer among other things aides in building up your selves in regard to "your most holy faith." But there is no mention of praying in foreign langauges. Do you deny that praying under the leadership in ones own langauge does not build you up on your most holy faith????? If so, then those who do not pray in tongues are inferior, but if not, then one serves no better than the other or hinders the Spirit any more than the other.


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

So we agree that praying in any form builds you up/edifies self? If so then we can both agree with Paul as he states the same thing as Jude! Speaking in tongues edifies self...but it is not a bad thing!

That may be so "to me" (meaning you) but that is not the Biblical teaching. Servant gifts listed in Ephesians 4:11 are special leadership functions in regard to Gods' Word. Apostles and Prophets provided the foundation of God's word - the New Testament. Evangelists are missionaries or "apostles" in the secondary sense of the term (Acts 14) or Church sent/authorized representatives (Acts 13:1-4) which lay the foundations of unity (Eph. 4:3-7) as New Testament congregations bound together with these essential truths.

Pastors "build upon" the Master builder (evangelists/missionary/church planters) reaffirming and reinforcing the same essentials so that the church is no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

When you minister to the people in any form is serving them!