Another approach at disproving OSAS

[BobRyan]

Gal 5:4 - Severed FROM Christ, fallen from Grace

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


The mere quote of the text - will give rise to objection by those who are at war with the text itself.

Wrong! This is talking about fruit production by abiding in Christ experientially through walking in the Spirit. Ultimate salvation is not being considered (v. 3) but already taken for granted concernng them.

The metaphor "burned with fire" is spelled out literally "without me ye can do NOTHING." .

Notice "The details" in John 15 - while connected the vine is found to produce less fruit.

it is utter nonsense to argue that the goal of separation from Christ is to get them to "produce less fruit". The text itself says that the lack of fruit is observed WHILE connected to the vine - so it is pruned and if that does not work - if that lack of fruit production persists - then the branch is removed, it withers, it dies - it is burned.

Obviously.

It just does not get any easier than this!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Gal 5:4 - Severed FROM Christ, fallen from Grace

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


The mere quote of the text - will give rise to objection by those who are at war with the text itself.



Notice "The details" in John 15 - while connected the vine is found to produce less fruit.

it is utter nonsense to argue that the goal of separation from Christ is to get them to "produce less fruit". The text itself says that the lack of fruit is observed WHILE connected to the vine - so it is pruned and if that does not work - if that lack of fruit production persists - then the branch is removed, it withers, it dies - it is burned.

Obviously.

It just does not get any easier than this!!

in Christ,

Bob

A metaphorical branck, metaphorically cut off CAN DO NOTHING!! Hence, "with me ye CAN DO NOTHING" or don't you understand the word "WITHOUT ME"???????

 

[BobRyan]

Sadly for the bend-and-wrench you are so desperately "reaching for" - the text does not say that God arbitrarily removes branches - severs them from Christ and then "discovers" that the branches severed from Christ "produce less fruit" or "produce no fruit".

INSTEAD - the text starts with the branches JOINED To Christ - that are not producing fruit -- and then PRUNES them - which in the text leads to fruit production - but in "some" cases - SOME branches even then do not produce fruit and THEN are "severed from Christ" .

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sadly for the bend-and-wrench you are so desperately "reaching for" - the text does not say that God arbitrarily removes branches - severs them from Christ and then "discovers" that the branches severed from Christ "produce less fruit" or "produce no fruit".

INSTEAD - the text starts with the branches JOINED To Christ - that are not producing fruit -- and then PRUNES them - which in the text leallds to fruit production - but in "some" cases - SOME branches even then do not produce fruit and THEN are "severed from Christ" .

Still can't read too well huh? Of course these are joined (v. 3) and then they are severed but you are making a circular argument based on YOUR INTERPRETATION not mine! So it is inconsistent with YOUR INTERPRETATION but perfectly consistent with mine!

They are said to be "clean" - v. 3 and those already said to be clean 'YOU" are the same you he LATER says "WITHOUT Me YE can do nothing"!

A Person canot be "IN HIM" and be lost as the lost condition is only found OUTSIDE of him in regard to SPRITUAL CONDITION. So he is not talking about a LOST person being found "IN ME" as that is impossible. Those in him are all "clean" and it is these "clean" ones in regard to the saved condition that he is addressing when he says to them "YE" can do nothing without Him. To be WITHOUT him in this context is in regard to PRODUCING FRUIT. Dead limbs are WITHOUT THE SAP flowing through them and they are cut off and burned. Time not under the leadership of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) is lost, wasted, burned (Eph. 5 :16) because it consists of life cut off from God and attempting His work "without me."

 

[Yeshua1]

Sadly for the bend-and-wrench you are so desperately "reaching for" - the text does not say that God arbitrarily removes branches - severs them from Christ and then "discovers" that the branches severed from Christ "produce less fruit" or "produce no fruit".

INSTEAD - the text starts with the branches JOINED To Christ - that are not producing fruit -- and then PRUNES them - which in the text leads to fruit production - but in "some" cases - SOME branches even then do not produce fruit and THEN are "severed from Christ" .

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

the ones who abide in Christ are the really saved , as those who "fall away" from the branch NEVER were part of Him !

All those NOT found in him will get cut off, so no spiritual life in jesus, no abiding, no like!

you REALLY need to quite using the Ellen White heurmanetics, and get a copty of real biblical ones!

 

[BobRyan]

the ones who abide in Christ are the really saved , as those who "fall away" from the branch NEVER were part of Him !

All those NOT found in him will get cut off,

There is no 'every branch not found in me will be cut off from me" in any text - because that is nonsensical. If they are already not in Him - there is nothing to disconnect!

They are connected but then they do not "choose" to abide in Christ - and because of this - they are Severed, disconnected - pruned - cast away.

--- By contrast the objective unbiased reader sees "The details" that need to be ignored so that OSAS will survive the text.

Vs 2- destroys the entire straw man you are trying to switch to --

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

 

[The Biblicist]

Still can't read too well huh? Of course these are joined (v. 3) and then they are severed but you are making a circular argument based on YOUR INTERPRETATION not mine! So it is inconsistent with YOUR INTERPRETATION but perfectly consistent with mine!

They are said to be "clean" - v. 3 and those already said to be clean 'YOU" are the same you he LATER says "WITHOUT Me YE can do nothing"!

A Person canot be "IN HIM" and be lost as the lost condition is only found OUTSIDE of him in regard to SPRITUAL CONDITION. So he is not talking about a LOST person being found "IN ME" as that is impossible. Those in him are all "clean" and it is these "clean" ones in regard to the saved condition that he is addressing when he says to them "YE" can do nothing without Him. To be WITHOUT him in this context is in regard to PRODUCING FRUIT. Dead limbs are WITHOUT THE SAP flowing through them and they are cut off and burned. Time not under the leadership of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) is lost, wasted, burned (Eph. 5 :16) because it consists of life cut off from God and attempting His work "without me."

Whats the matter Bob, cat got your tongue????