Dead to the Law - Rom. 7

[The Biblicist]

The saint is "dead to the Law" by the body of Christ - Rom. 7:1-5

Therefore:

1. The Law cannot justify a sinner before God because the Law is holy just and good but the sinner is not good - Rom. 7:1-13

2. The Law cannot sanctify a saved sinner before God because the Law is holy, just and good, but the unregenerated nature of man - the flesh - is incapable of conformation to the Law - Rom. 7:14-25

3. What the Law could not do (justify/sanctify) the Son of God did in His own body by his own life (justification) and through the indwelling Spirit of God (sanctification) - Rom. 8:1-8

4. Sanctification is by the Holy Spirit's power according to the grace of God whereby the deeds of the flesh - unregenerated nature - "the flesh" = "this body of death" is mortified - put to death BY FAITH just as we received the Lord Jesus Christ BY FAITH - Rom. 8:9-13/Col. 2:6

 

[BobRyan]

wicked sinful nature of the lost does not subject itself to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it. At no point does Paul claim that there is no difference between the lost and saved when it comes to how they relate to the Law of God - except in his claim that both need the Gospel. But in the case of the saved - they have the Law of God "written on the heart and mind" - not so with the Lost.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 6
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of [FONT=&quot]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

John agrees with Paul - perfectly.

1 John 2
[/FONT] 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

[The Biblicist]

wicked sinful nature of the lost does not subject itself to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it. At no point does Paul claim that there is no difference between the lost and saved when it comes to how they relate to the Law of God - except in his claim that both need the Gospel. But in the case of the saved - they have the Law of God "written on the heart and mind" - not so with the Lost.

False! Paul does not claim that the unregenerated fallen nature within the saved man relates any better to the Law than the lost man - Rom. 7:18-25. The law of God is written on "the heart" of the regenreated man but not in his "flesh" or what he calls "this body of death". The saved man still dwells "in the flesh" and the law of sin, or the lusts of the flesh still operate within that unredeemed body.

The following verse is an exercise of futility if Christians were not still subject to the "lusts" of the fleshly fallen nature:

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 6
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=&quot]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

John

Again, these texts are exercies of futility if the saved person is not subject to the lusts of the flesh. We are no longer "slaves of sin" but we are completely able to serve Sin through the lusts of our flesh .

1 John 2

[/FONT]

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

The saved man delights in the Law of God and thus desires to keep the Lord's Commandments out of love for God not in order to be saved. There are no conditional clauses provided here by John in regard to obtaining salvation. However, that is your unbiblical and ungodly inference.

 

[The Biblicist]

The saint is "dead to the Law" by the body of Christ - Rom. 7:1-5

Therefore:

1. The Law cannot justify a sinner before God because the Law is holy just and good but the sinner is not good - Rom. 7:1-13

2. The Law cannot sanctify a saved sinner before God because the Law is holy, just and good, but the unregenerated nature of man - the flesh - is incapable of conformation to the Law - Rom. 7:14-25

3. What the Law could not do (justify/sanctify) the Son of God did in His own body by his own life (justification) and through the indwelling Spirit of God (sanctification) - Rom. 8:1-8

4. Sanctification is by the Holy Spirit's power according to the grace of God whereby the deeds of the flesh - unregenerated nature - "the flesh" = "this body of death" is mortified - put to death BY FAITH just as we received the Lord Jesus Christ BY FAITH - Rom. 8:9-13/Col. 2:6

The child of God is "dead" to the Law's jurisdiction, penaltes and condemnation. However, his inward new man (new heart) delights in the Law of God or the commandments of the Lord.

The Law can neither justify or sanctify the child of God. The Lord Jesus Christ satisfied all the demands of the Law against a child of God. Now the child of God is freed from the dominion of sin, the penalty of the law and freed to love and serve God willingly submissive to the commandments of the Lord without penalty or coercion or fear of judgment.

The difference between Bob's veiw and mine is critical to genuine salvation. Both of us see the law written on the heart, love for God's Word and willingness to obey the Lord. However, Bob sees this willing obedience as CONDITIONAL for ultimate entrance into heaven whereas I see it consequential to already obtaining entrance into heaven and only conditional for rewards in heaven. His view is just another way of saying one is "justified by works" but calling it grace as he merely includes "good works" in his definition of grace.

 

[The Biblicist]

wicked sinful nature of the lost does not subject itself to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it. At no point does Paul claim that there is no difference between the lost and saved when it comes to how they relate to the Law of God - except in his claim that both need the Gospel. But in the case of the saved - they have the Law of God "written on the heart and mind" - not so with the Lost.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 6
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of [FONT=&quot]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

John agrees with Paul - perfectly.

1 John 2
[/FONT] 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Tell us Bob, in what sense is the believer, the true child of God, the born again, justified child of God "DEAD TO THE LAW"???

 

[clark thompson]

The saint is "dead to the Law" by the body of Christ - Rom. 7:1-5

Therefore:

1. The Law cannot justify a sinner before God because the Law is holy just and good but the sinner is not good - Rom. 7:1-13

2. The Law cannot sanctify a saved sinner before God because the Law is holy, just and good, but the unregenerated nature of man - the flesh - is incapable of conformation to the Law - Rom. 7:14-25

3. What the Law could not do (justify/sanctify) the Son of God did in His own body by his own life (justification) and through the indwelling Spirit of God (sanctification) - Rom. 8:1-8

4. Sanctification is by the Holy Spirit's power according to the grace of God whereby the deeds of the flesh - unregenerated nature - "the flesh" = "this body of death" is mortified - put to death BY FAITH just as we received the Lord Jesus Christ BY FAITH - Rom. 8:9-13/Col. 2:6

Amen. I agree.

 

[BobRyan]

Tell us Bob, in what sense is the believer, the true child of God, the born again, justified child of God "DEAD TO THE LAW"???

According to the Word of God - The "Law of God is written on the heart of the saved saint".(Heb 8)

The saints are those that "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith is in agreement on these points.

We who are the saints - have died the death that the Law requires as Romans 7 points out - in Christ who pays the penalty, the 2nd death "debt" that all the lost owe.

And as Paul points out in Romans 6 - we are THEN RAISED in newness of life.

Romans 6 - is a good chapter to read -- before Romans 7.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

According to the Word of God - The "Law of God is written on the heart of the saved saint".(Heb 8)

The saints are those that "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith is in agreement on these points.

Who disagreed with these points? Not I? I simply disagreed with the purpose you gave to them.

We who are the saints - have died the death that the Law requires as Romans 7 points out - in Christ who pays the penalty, the 2nd death "debt" that all the lost owe.

Better read all of chapter seven not just the first five verses. We are dead to the Law's jurisdiction (vv. 1-5) just as a corpose is dead to the jurisdiction of the law. No future condemnation by law possible (Jn. 5:24). No justification by law possible (Rom. 7:6-13). No possible sanctification by law possible (Rom. 7:14-25).

The only role of Law is that it is the LOVE of the inward man (Rom. 7:22) due to new birth.

And as Paul points out in Romans 6 - we are THEN RAISED in newness of life.

Romans 6 - is a good chapter to read -- before Romans 7.

Reading it won't help you! You need to understand it and you do not.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

This refers to Romans 4-5 and dead by justification through faith in Christ's body (Rom. 7:5).

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

Water baptism is the perfect example of why justification by faith through grace (Rom. 3:24-5:21) does not promote sin (Rom. 6:1). We have judicially died to sin by the death of Christ's body to the law (Rom. 7:1-5) as seen in burial of our body in baptism and we have been regenerated by the power that raised his body from the grave as seen in raising up of our body from the water in baptism.

Thus in baptism both the doctrine of justification and regeneration is illustrated. We are positionally dead to sin by the body of Christ through faith and we are personally regenerated or raised to life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Hence, both our position and our person has been changed in regard to sin. His dead body is the basis for our changed position to sin judicially by faith. His resurrected body is the basis for our changed person in regard to sin by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

Regeneration provides the HEART/love for God's law but this requires that we put on the inward man through faith while "reckoning" ourself dead to sin and yeilding to the power of the Indwelling Spirit (Rom. 6:10-14). Regeneration has changed us personally from a servant of sin to a servant of righteousness but that service must be in the power of the Spirit rather than in the power of our own strength (Rom. 7:14-25).

 

[Gup20]

I'm not sure I understand what you guys are arguing about. You both seem to be saying the same thing. I guess I agree with you both.

Biblicist would you consider inserting a little more gentleness while debating? It's difficult to agree with you when your posts feel mean-spirited and arrogant. We are supposed to speak the truth in gentleness and love. I think BobRyan has a keen mind for scripture, as do you. I don't entirely agree with either of you all the time, but we don't need to attack the credibility, motives, intentions, or salvation of one another to vigorously defend our perspectives of scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist would you consider inserting a little more gentleness while debating?

Well Guppy, black and white does not always convey what you think is being conveyed. However, I am always willing to do better especially when you ask so nicely. However, your request went on to more sound like an accusation. I will ignore the rest and try a little harder simply because you asked so nicely at the first.

 

[BobRyan]

According to the Word of God - The "Law of God is written on the heart of the saved saint".(Heb 8)

The saints are those that "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith is in agreement on these points.

We who are the saints - have died the death that the Law requires as Romans 7 points out - in Christ who pays the penalty, the 2nd death "debt" that all the lost owe.

And as Paul points out in Romans 6 - we are THEN RAISED in newness of life.

Romans 6 - is a good chapter to read -- before Romans 7.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

I like the fact that in Romans 6 Paul begins with "Dead to SIN - Alive to God" as we move into Romans 7. But for others the mere mention of this Bible detail will give rise to acrimony and strong objection.

in posting the above - I was not trying to say that one could not respond to Romans 6 with little more than ad hominem and name-calling.

Certainly people have the free will to choose that route if they wish.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith appears to agree.

And then of course 1John 5:2-4 comes to mind.

And 1John 2:3-6.

Will quote them next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

wicked sinful nature of the lost does not subject itself to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it. At no point does Paul claim that there is no difference between the lost and saved when it comes to how they relate to the Law of God - except in his claim that both need the Gospel. But in the case of the saved - they have the Law of God "written on the heart and mind" - not so with the Lost.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 6
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of [FONT=&quot]righteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

John agrees with Paul - perfectly.

1 John 2
[/FONT] 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Why do you want to keep living by the letter of the law, when God has given to us His Spirit of the law in the person of the Holy Spirit?

 

[BobRyan]

Your post above shows that your POV requires that the mere quote the text of the NT is all that it takes to give rise to strong objection and the false accusation about "living by the letter of the law".

Your method shows that you are at war against the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

I like the fact that in Romans 6 Paul begins with "Dead to SIN - Alive to God" as we move into Romans 7. But for others the mere mention of this Bible detail will give rise to acrimony and strong objection.

in posting the above - I was not trying to say that one could not respond to Romans 6 with little more than ad hominem and name-calling.

Certainly people have the free will to choose that route if they wish.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Matters in regard to what? Certainly as Christians this is what matters in regard to honoring and pleaseing God. No sane person could deny that. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. Hence, there is no argument that keeping his commandments matters in regard to fellowship, Christian growth, blessings, rewards and many other things. However, what it does not matter or make a difference is in regard to justification and entrance into heaven as we are justified "WITHOUT WORKS." Obviously Paul is not talking about "BAD" works but what men would consider to be "GOOD" works as no one in their right mind would attempt to please God by "BAD" works. So you are making an INFERENCE with this verse that the verse does not state and rest of scripture denies. I get the verse and I agree with the verse.

Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Again, the verse correctly identifies Christians. They are the ones who keep the commandments of God. However, this verse says nothing about WHY they keep the commandments. The reason cannot be in order to be justified as scriptures deny that reason. The reason the scriptures give repeatedly is that they obey God's commandments due to LOVE and the desire to PLEASE God. Again, you quote a verse but then infer what it does not say.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith appears to agree.

Have you seriously read this particular Baptist Confession where it explicitly deals with justificaiton before God and commandment keeping? If you had, you would not be so eager to refer to it as this confession completely repudiates your inferences and YOU KNOW IT. So you do to it what you do to scripture - you cherry pick and make inferences that are simply not there IN CONTEXT.

And then of course 1John 5:2-4 comes to mind.

Here we do find the precise CAUSE for keeping commandments explicitly stated - "LOVE" not in order to enter heaven or obtain ultimate justification, etc..

And 1John 2:3-6.

Again, there are no conditions given here. He is speaking about those who repudiate keeping the commandments of God. There were those during apostolic times who echoed Romans 6:1 and had a view of grace that exalted sin as proof of grace and therefore were described by the term "laciviousness" as they gloried in disobedience as proof that where sin abounds grace much more abounds. No, I do not believe in that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your post above shows that your POV requires that the mere quote the text of the NT is all that it takes to give rise to strong objection and the false accusation about "living by the letter of the law".

Your method shows that you are at war against the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

Do the SDA even know that there are Romans and galatians in the NT canon?

Apostle paul stated NONE will be justified before God by keeping the Law, its faith alone in the Grace of the Lord jesus alone that saves a sinner!