The 4th Commandment Sabbath WAS change but not in the Bible

[The Biblicist]

Jesus said the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 not "just Jews".

And you admit that Is 66:23 predicts an eternity where from Sabbath to Sabbath "ALL MANKIND comes before Me to worship" in the New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21.

And Isaiah 56 speaks specifically of gentiles who were keeping the Sabbath in Isaiah's day - (As we also see in the NT in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18...).

In addition the Sabbath is also given as a sign to God's people - whether they be the gentiles of Isaiah 66 or the Jews of Exodus 20.

Your insistence that the Bible never applies the Sabbath to gentiles is in spite of these texts - not because of them.

The four points of the Sabbath doctrine.

1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11.
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)
5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.

DHK you object to the first 4 but may well accept point 5.

The many other non-SDA sources, groups, documents I have listed here accept the first 4 and reject point 5.

I accept all 5 - as do the Seventh-day Baptists and others.

This is irrefutable.


in Christ,

Bob

Yes the sabbath was made for all mankind but the Sabbath law application now and in the new heavens and earth is not the Saturday application but the eternal EIGHTH day application or first day of the week on which the Lord rose again. This is the emphasis in all the new covenant Messianic feast types. This is the new Sabbath "made" in Psalm 118:24 (can't refer to Saturday because this is a new one "made" in direct reference to resurrection of Christ). This is the first Sabbath in a new series (Mk. 16:9). This is the better Sabbath based upon the greater work of our redeemer (Heb. 4:9-10). This is the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). This is the "Lord's Day" Sunday from the first to the fourth centuires. This is the Creational Sabbath free from all legalism under levitical laws but is a day set aside to give the world witness that we Christians have a wonderful hope based solely in the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ that points to an eternal eighth day of ETERNAL REST from sin in a sinless world full of joy and gladness - halalluah!

 

[DHK]

Jesus said the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 not "just Jews".

Go learn what this verse means and stop jerking it out of context.
Jesus was teaching the Pharisees who made man a slave to the sabbath.
He teaches them that the Sabbath was to be enjoyed by "mankind" (ie. the Jews--his audience at the time). It was made for them; not the other way around.
You disregard the context; disregard the teaching; and make the verse teach something it doesn't. Typical cult teaching. Try expounding on the entire passage.

And you admit that Is 66:23 predicts an eternity where from Sabbath to Sabbath "ALL MANKIND comes before Me to worship" in the New Earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21.

I don't admit to anything. These Scriptures have nothing to do with this day and age! Period. Case closed. They cannot be used.

And Isaiah 56 speaks specifically of gentiles who were keeping the Sabbath in Isaiah's day - (As we also see in the NT in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18...).

Again, these prophetic scriptures in Isaiah cannot be used for this day and again. Don't even try.

In addition the Sabbath is also given as a sign to God's people - whether they be the gentiles of Isaiah 66 or the Jews of Exodus 20.

The Sabbath is only given to Israel, God's chosen people of the OT.

Your insistence that the Bible never applies the Sabbath to gentiles is in spite of these texts - not because of them.

That is the teaching of the Word of God. You reject God's Word.

The four points of the Sabbath doctrine.

1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11.

That is what you say; not what the Bible teaches. Your listing of those references means nothing. They have all been refuted.

2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.

Meaningless dribble. We are talking of the present, not the future. Why not talk of life on another planet as well? We don't know what the future holds.

3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)

Pure speculation on your part. The sabbath was not kept in the NT by any but the Jews.

4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)

A sabbath rest is not keeping the sabbath. Go and study what that means.

5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.

I don't bend the sabbath, nor do I have any reason to keep a Jewish day, a sign of a covenant between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. If they broke it they were to be stoned to death. Are you ready to meet that consequence?

DHK you object to the first 4 but may well accept point 5.

I don't accept any of your points.

The many other non-SDA sources, groups, documents I have listed here accept the first 4 and reject point 5.

What other people believe is not my concern; I believe the Bible.

I accept all 5 - as do the Seventh-day Baptists and others.

This is irrefutable.

You have been thoroughly refuted.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes the sabbath was made for all mankind but the Sabbath law application now and in the new heavens and earth is not the Saturday application but the eternal EIGHTH day application or first day of the week on which the Lord rose again. This is the emphasis in all the new covenant Messianic feast types. This is the new Sabbath "made" in Psalm 118:24 (can't refer to Saturday because this is a new one "made" in direct reference to resurrection of Christ). This is the first Sabbath in a new series (Mk. 16:9). This is the better Sabbath based upon the greater work of our redeemer (Heb. 4:9-10). This is the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). This is the "Lord's Day" Sunday from the first to the fourth centuires. This is the Creational Sabbath free from all legalism under levitical laws but is a day set aside to give the world witness that we Christians have a wonderful hope based solely in the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ that points to an eternal eighth day of ETERNAL REST from sin in a sinless world full of joy and gladness - halalluah!

My position on the Fourth commandment is held by the earliest English Particular Baptists who wrote the 1644 with its revisions and the 1689 London Confession. The difference between the 1644 and 1689 is that the 1644 defended the basics by a few London Baptist preachers while the 1689 included the same London Preachers but a total of 100 or more other Baptist preachers in England representing the MAJORITY position of Particular Baptists in England.

Second, it was adopted by the first and largest Particular Baptist Association in America (Philadelphia) followed by nearly every other association that followed. It was the greatest Confession among Particular and Regular Baptists up to 1733. It represented the majority of Particular Baptists in America as did the 1689 did in England.

Third, the Newhampshire Confession in 1733 also takes my position on the Sabbath. The New Hampshire was and is the most widely used Baptist Confession in America and the basis for the Southern Baptist "Baptist Faith and Message."

Am I saying that Baptist confessions trump scripture? No! All I am saying is that these confessions provide the general consensus of the majority of Particular and Regular Baptists in America up to nearly 60 years ago.

I am saying that my position on the Sabbath is well founded within the circles of Baptist interpretation of the Scriptures and not a minority opinion.

 

[The Biblicist]

Go learn what this verse means and stop jerking it out of context.
Jesus was teaching the Pharisees who made man a slave to the sabbath.
He teaches them that the Sabbath was to be enjoyed by "mankind" (ie. the Jews--his audience at the time). It was made for them; not the other way around.

DHK's interpetation here is indisputable as Isaiah 58:13 explicilty says it is to be regarded as a "DELIGHT" not a legalistic burden on mankind. Jesus explicitly defendd his disciples freely harvesting food to satisfy their needs on the Sabbath. He explicitly denied that the sabbath forbade all manner of work as He defended all manner of work for the Lord on the Sabbath including the strenuous work of Preists in the slaughter of sacrifcies, the taking of bread to eat by David and his men in spite of contrary Levitical forbidding that very thing, removing the ox out of the ditch.

The clear apparent violation of Levitical law by the High Priest giving not only David but his men the shew bread reserved to none but preists under penalty of death further defends DHK's interpretation.

One must understand the design behind the Levitical restriction of the shew bread to see why the High Preist in that particular cirucmstance was justified in giving that bread for non-priests to eat when the Law forbade it under the penalty of death.

The design behind that law is found in the typology of the shew bread and priests. The bread is symbolizes the "bread OF LIFE" particular in the Person of Jesus Christ. So it was ordained to give LIFE not death. Second, the preists not only represent Christ but believers and LIFE obtained through the sacrifical work and priestly work of Jesus Christ. Hence, the PRINCIPLE behind the law trumped the LETTER due to the circumstance. The PRINCIPLE behind the bread was to GIVE LIFE and in this circumstance the LIFE of David and his men were being preserved in perfect harmony with the PRINCIPLE behind the Law.

Likewise, there is a greater PRINCIPLE behind the Sabbath law than any kind of restrictive application to any 24 hour period of time. That is why the Sabbath law is applied to VARIOUS 24 hour periods of time and longer periods of time than merely24 hours (month, year) as it finally finds it ultimate application in an UNENDING period of time or the eternal 8th day Sabbath of a new heaven and earth. It applies to the spiritual rest found in regeneration, the soulish rest found in walking in the Spirit, and the bodily rest found in the resurrection into a coming sinless new heaven and earth where the entire man spirit, soul and body will rest permenantly from the presence of sin.

What a glorious truth pictured in the Sabbath that is yet to be fulfilled completely (Heb. 4:9-11).

 

[BobRyan]

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Originally Posted by The Biblicist

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But NOT ONE of these "objective unbiased Bible students" such as Moody, Sproul, Stanley, Spurgeon believed or observed Saturday as the Sabbath

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Hint - they all accept the Bible fact that Saturday was the Sabbath as God gave it in Eden and reminded Israel of it in Ex 16 "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" and repeated it in Ex 20:11.

They all admit that it was fulfilled as God gave it - by keeping the actual 7th day of the week (If one is going to go "sola scriptura" on this doctrine)
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In the Six points of the Sabbath doctrine - those sources accept the first 4. And then they try and "Bend the Sabbath" to point to "week-day 1".

1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11.
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)

5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.
6. The language of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 specify God’s own selected seventh-day of the week – not the mythical and much imagined “any-ol day in seven” idea. Ex 16 “Tomorrow is the Sabbath” – not “any day in seven you wish”.

Point 6 is demonstrated not only in the language and historic facts in Exodus 16 – showing that God selects the very day that is to be considered the 7th day – and no other, but also in the Genesis 1 and 2 fact that the seventh day in Genesis 2 is actually the SECOND day of Adam’s week! God’s selection for the 7th day was not the 7th day of Adam’s week – but of Creation week as seen by God! God Himself selects the very day based on his observation of earth - not man's observation.

· - note if you swap week-day-1 for 7 – then the week only has week-day-1. Not week day 7 since the only thing made on week day 7 – was week-day 7.

DHK's interpetation here is indisputable

I think that DHK rejects the first four points listed above. Do you?

I think DHK might accept point five above --- do you?

as Isaiah 58:13 explicilty says it is to be regarded as a "DELIGHT" not a legalistic burden

Indeed 1John 5:2-3 says that God's COMMANMDENTS are not regarded as a "burden" by the saints.

John says in Rev 14:12 that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Same as in OT.

One Gospel in all ages.

Jesus explicitly defendd his disciples freely harvesting food to satisfy their needs on the Sabbath.

You are a bit too anxious to take up the Jews accusations against Christ. The disciples were not engaged in the harvest - they merely picked the heads of grain as they walked. A handful of food right off the stalk. Not at all engaged in labor as in harvest.

They were being falsely accused of engaged in weekly labor - harvest by the extremists among the Jews.

He explicitly denied that the sabbath forbade all manner of work as He defended all manner of work for the Lord on the Sabbath including the strenuous work of Preists in the slaughter of sacrifcies,

Indeed the OT context for the kind of work allowed by the Bible Sabbath did not fit the made-up-rules of the Jews - but fit the Bible.

As Gal 4 points out (and as Matt 5 in the words of Christ) the example of Christ was one of perfect obedience to the Law of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

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Hint - they all accept the Bible fact that Saturday was the Sabbath as God gave it in Eden.

I cannot find any of them that admitted it was Saturday in Eden but only that the Jews observed it on Saturday.

Nevertheless, still NONE observed it on Saturday and ALL opposed Saturday observance.

 

[Yeshua1]

I cannot find any of them that admitted it was Saturday in Eden but only that the Jews observed it on Saturday.

Nevertheless, still NONE observed it on Saturday and ALL opposed Saturday observance.

sabbath was not changed, bu the Church was placed on the Lord's day!

 

[BobRyan]

sabbath was not changed, bu the Church was placed on the Lord's day!

Indeed the Bible Sabbath is still the same - it is pointing to the seventh day of the week - as the day that God Himself selected, sanctified, blessed, made holy.

And the Church tradition of man has indeed decided to call week-day-1 the Lord's day at some point long after the cross and the Matt 28 great commission to the church.

I fully agree.

But what has not happened is -

1. Someone finally found a text saying that week-day-1 is the Lord's Day.

2. Someone finally found a text saying that Isaiah 66:23 is wrong and mankind will not be coming before God for all of eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth.

3. Someone finally found a text saying that Mark 7:6-13 is wrong and it is in fact ok to set aside one of the commandments of God - in order to keep man's traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I cannot find any of them that admitted it was Saturday in Eden but only that the Jews observed it on Saturday.
.

NONE of them claim that the Sabbath was CHANGED from Eden to Sinai.

ALL of them claim that the Sabbath was given - made - in Eden Gen 2:3.

ALL of them admit that the Sabbath as given by God in the OT points to Saturday (though some ALSO call it by the unbiblical term "the last day" of the week and sunday the more biblical term "first day of the week").

You're looking for an out here - and none is available.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

NONE of them claim that the Sabbath was CHANGED from Eden to Sinai.

So take your day of rest on Wednesday. The days of the week were not named. Any day would do. The principle was to rest one day out of seven. There was no "sabbath" in Eden. It was a day of rest.

ALL of them claim that the Sabbath was given - made - in Eden Gen 2:3.

As a day of rest, only. What to do with that day of rest is up for discussion, especially among Gentiles. Again, there is no mention of the word "sabbath" in the Book of Genesis.

ALL of them admit that the Sabbath as given by God in the OT points to Saturday (though some ALSO call it by the unbiblical term "the last day" of the week and sunday the more biblical term "first day of the week").

Of course it points to Saturday. It was given to the Jews. It is a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and the Jews forever. It was not given to Gentiles. They (like I) believe the Sabbath was and is on Saturday. This is no new teaching. It is a Jewish holy day.
Sunday is not the Sabbath, although some of them called it the Sabbath. Many of them clarified themselves calling it the "Christian Sabbath." By that they meant that if they were going to make one day out of the week a day of rest they would prefer to make it Sunday, a day in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, a day to set apart not only for rest but for worship. Note also that it was the preacher's "work day," or busiest day of the week. Thus it was not legalistically kept, as the SDAs try to keep it. The renaming of Sunday as "Christian Sabbath" or sometimes referred to as simply "sabbath" is unfortunate. But it was never intended as a "keeping of the sabbath" in the way that the Bible describes or in the way that the Jews kept the sabbath. To infer that is wrong.
It simply meant that on that one day that they ceased from their secular work, they took the time to worship the Lord in a corporate manner. This they were encouraged to do faithfully every Sunday. That is all that was meant by keeping the Sabbath. That is not the biblical definition of keeping the sabbath--far from it.
Most of us do the same thing today--encourage our people to be at church every Sunday--to be faithful. We not only encourage them to be at church on Sunday but during the mid-week service as well. One day is not more important than another. The early church met every day of the week.

You're looking for an out here - and none is available.

I don't have an out. I have an "in." It is called being eternally secure in Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

So take your day of rest on Wednesday. The days of the week were not named. Any day would do. The principle was to rest one day out of seven.

That is obviously incorrect.

1. "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16- the day is pointed out by God AGAIN - even before Sinai. The very day is selected. Not "any day you pick".

2. Gen 2:3 is the SECOND day of life for Adam not the SEVENTH. God shows that it is GOD's SEVENTH day as given to earth - and the making of earth. It is the CREATION week seventh day that is to be kept - not any day in seven MAN would pick as if Adam worked 6 days then rested. That is what your view needs - but that is not the model God gives.

God is the one that in the actual Bible maintains the consistency from Gen 2:3 to Ex 16 and to Ex 20.

At NO point does God "leave it up to man" to come up with his own "1 day in seven" as is often "imagined".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

That is obviously incorrect.

1. "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16- the day is pointed out by God AGAIN - even before Sinai. The very day is selected. Not "any day you pick".

It is not incorrect at all Bob. I quoted from Genesis, not from Exodus. There is no sabbath in the book of Genesis. Not till one gets to Exodus and that nation of Israel do we come to the "Sabbath Day," a day given exclusively to the Sabbath.
A day of rest, a principle taught in Genesis 2, can be any day of the week, as long as man rests one day of the week. That is all that the Lord was teaching. There is no sabbath in Genesis.

2. Gen 2:3 is the SECOND day of life for Adam not the SEVENTH. God shows that it is GOD's SEVENTH day as given to earth - and the making of earth. It is the CREATION week seventh day that is to be kept - not any day in seven MAN would pick as if Adam worked 6 days then rested. That is what your view needs - but that is not the model God gives.

The Lord didn't give names to any of the days. He taught that man should rest one day out of seven. As the Lord worked six days and then rested one day, so man should rest one day out of seven, but no specific day is given.

God is the one that in the actual Bible maintains the consistency from Gen 2:3 to Ex 16 and to Ex 20.

Israel is the only people to whom the sabbath was given--the only people.

At NO point does God "leave it up to man" to come up with his own "1 day in seven" as is often "imagined".

It is a Jewish holy day and was never given to the Gentiles to observe.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by DHK
So take your day of rest on Wednesday. The days of the week were not named. Any day would do. The principle was to rest one day out of seven.

That is obviously incorrect.

1. "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16- the day is pointed out by God AGAIN - even before Sinai. The very day is selected. Not "any day you pick".

2. Gen 2:3 is the SECOND day of life for Adam not the SEVENTH. God shows that it is GOD's SEVENTH day as given to earth - and the making of earth. It is the CREATION week seventh day that is to be kept - not any day in seven MAN would pick as if Adam worked 6 days then rested. That is what your view needs - but that is not the model God gives.

God is the one that in the actual Bible maintains the consistency from Gen 2:3 to Ex 16 and to Ex 20.

At NO point does God "leave it up to man" to come up with his own "1 day in seven" as is often "imagined".

It is not incorrect at all Bob. I quoted from Genesis, not from Exodus. There is no sabbath in the book of Genesis.

It is in Genesis that the 7th day is blessed, set apart, made holy, sanctified - not in Exodus 16.

In Exodus 16 mankind is simply reminded of it.

You have no argument for the 7th day of Genesis 2 not being the same day blessed, sanctified, set apart as is claimed for it in Exodus because then you would have to rest on the hope that "God forgot which day it was".

Ex 20:11 goes back to Gen 2:1-3 saying that those facts alone make the day holy.

Not till one gets to Exodus and that nation of Israel do we come to the "Sabbath Day,"

When you look at Gen 2:3 you "hope" to summarize it as "The Lord blessed A seventh day and made it holy - and then later picked another day SATURDAY at Sinai and made IT Sabbath for it also is A seventh day"

By contrast when GOD Looked back at Gen 2:3 instead of saying "God blessed A SEVENTH day" He said

In Ex 20:11 "Therefore the Lord BLESSED the SABBATH day" not "Therefore the Lord blessed A Seventh day"

Your summary of Gen 2:3 directly contradicts the summary of it that God Himself gives in Ex 20:11.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:3
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had restedfrom all his work which God created and made.

Your argument is "with the text" because in your view Ex 20:11 could only say "God made the world in six days and rested on a seventh day therefore the Lord blessed A seventh day but now he makes it Sabbath".

Thus your idea is debunked not only in the language of the 4th commandment in Ex 20:11 but also in Ex 16 "Tomorrow is THE Sabbath" where the very day - Saturday is pointed to - as being the same day as in Gen 2:3 (unless you are placing all your hopes on "yes but God forgot which day it was").

A day of rest, a principle taught in Genesis 2, can be any day of the week

Except that Gen 2:3 is NOT "A seventh day" for Adam.

Except that God refers to Gen 2:3 as the blessing of "THE Sabbath day" and says so explicitly in Ex 20:11. This is what HE claims HE did.

your argument is with "the text".

, as long as man rests one day of the week.

Your argument fails in Ex 16 because they were not allowed to rest any day they chose.

Your argument fails in Gen 2:1-3 because there is no week day 1 resting or week-day 2 resting going on in Gen 1-2 - it is only on THE seventh day not "A Seventh day" and Ex 20:11 affirms that same point.

Yet for Adam it is HIS 2nd day - which means that THE Seventh day is GOD's not man's. Adam did NOT work 6 days and then rest man's seventh day. Rather man rested on GOD's Seventh day - the 2nd day of life for Adam. If you take Adam's view of it - then at best it is "one day in two" as A rest day. And Adam has only a 2 day week if the idea is to just claim it as a general "1 day in ...". But if God said to Adam THIS IS the 7 th day because it is all of creation week that counts - not how many days you have been working. If God was placing a special blessing on that ONE specific day of the week and Adam would simply need to trust God that the other 5 days existed as such - then Adam would have "THE seventh day" the one GOD selected - for rest and worship not "A seventh day" that would have come along after 4 more days of Adam's working.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by DHK
So take your day of rest on Wednesday. The days of the week were not named. Any day would do. The principle was to rest one day out of seven.

It is in Genesis that the 7th day is blessed, set apart, made holy, sanctified - not in Exodus 16.

In Exodus 16 mankind is simply reminded of it.

You have no argument for the 7th day of Genesis 2 not being the same day blessed, sanctified, set apart as is claimed for it in Exodus because then you would have to rest on the hope that "God forgot which day it was".

Ex 20:11 goes back to Gen 2:1-3 saying that those facts alone make the day holy.

Again, this is your answer to my argument from Genesis where "sabbath" is not found.
It is found in Exodus, where it is given as a command to the Jews.
In Genesis there is no command given; only a principle set forth.
Exodus 20 goes back to Genesis giving the basis for the command. But Genesis standing alone gives no such command. It is something we call "progressive revelation." You can't read back into Scripture that which is not there. Adam did not have the revelation that Moses did.

When you look at Gen 2:3 you "hope" to summarize it as "The Lord blessed A seventh day and made it holy - and then later picked another day SATURDAY at Sinai and made IT Sabbath for it also is A seventh day"

There is no Sinai in Genesis. How would Adam know about such future events. You can't read into Scripture those things that are not there. Did Adam know about Pentecost as well?

By contrast when GOD Looked back at Gen 2:3 instead of saying "God blessed A SEVENTH day" He said

In Ex 20:11 "Therefore the Lord BLESSED the SABBATH day" not "Therefore the Lord blessed A Seventh day"

Your summary of Gen 2:3 directly contradicts the summary of it that God Himself gives in Ex 20:11.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:3
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had restedfrom all his work which God created and made.

Your argument is "with the text" because in your view Ex 20:11 could only say "God made the world in six days and rested on a seventh day therefore the Lord blessed A seventh day but now he makes it Sabbath".

Thus your idea is debunked not only in the language of the 4th commandment in Ex 20:11 but also in Ex 16 "Tomorrow is THE Sabbath" where the very day - Saturday is pointed to - as being the same day as in Gen 2:3 (unless you are placing all your hopes on "yes but God forgot which day it was").

My argument is not with the text at all. There is no sabbath in Genesis 2.
There is only a sabbath in Exodus, and that sabbath is given to the Jews.
The sabbath is never given to the Gentiles--never.

Except that Gen 2:3 is NOT "A seventh day" for Adam.

Except that God refers to Gen 2:3 as the blessing of "THE Sabbath day" and says so explicitly in Ex 20:11. This is what HE claims HE did.

your argument is with "the text".

My problem is not with the text; yours is.
There is no sabbath in Genesis.
The sabbath is given to the nation of Israel as a sign of a covenant between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It was never given to the Gentiles. It has nothing to do with the six days of creation, and the day "God rested." God rested one day out of seven in that creation week, setting for a principle for man to follow. The day is irrelevant except to the Jews. It is still irrelevant to the Gentiles.

Your argument fails in Ex 16 because they were not allowed to rest any day they chose.

That is what the Lord told Israel; he never gave the same command to the Gentiles.

Your argument fails in Gen 2:1-3 because there is no week day 1 resting or week-day 2 resting going on in Gen 1-2 - it is only on THE seventh day not "A Seventh day" and Ex 20:11 affirms that same point.

Again, Exodus 20 was given to the nation of Israel, not the Gentiles.

Yet for Adam it is HIS 2nd day - which means that THE Seventh day is GOD's not man's. Adam did NOT work 6 days and then rest man's seventh day. Rather man rested on GOD's Seventh day - the 2nd day of life for Adam. If you take Adam's view of it - then at best it is "one day in two" as A rest day. And Adam has only a 2 day week if the idea is to just claim it as a general "1 day in ...". But if God said to Adam THIS IS the 7 th day because it is all of creation week that counts - not how many days you have been working. If God was placing a special blessing on that ONE specific day of the week and Adam would simply need to trust God that the other 5 days existed as such - then Adam would have "THE seventh day" the one GOD selected - for rest and worship not "A seventh day" that would have come along after 4 more days of Adam's working.

in Christ,

Bob

Your logic is interesting. God rested on the seventh day. Man was created on the sixth day. It was a long sixth day in which much was accomplished. There is no indication that man rested on the second day of his life. He was put there to "dress" and keep the garden in which God had put him there. No doubt that day was a day of work for Adam, as soon as he was created. He was created and then didn't go back to sleep the day after he was created, the day God rested. That doesn't make sense.
The "sabbath" day argument here works against you. It was no doubt a day of work for Adam on this seventh day. The day of "rest" simply means that God ceased from his creating. It doesn't mean that Adam didn't work.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, this is your answer to my argument from Genesis where "sabbath" is not found.
It is found in Exodus, where it is given as a command to the Jews.

When we read "the details" of both Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:11 we find that God Himself insists that the Gen 2:3 event alone makes the Sabbath holy and blessed.

God says that in the past "He MADE" the Sabbath holy - at that Gen 2:3 event. You keep insisting that we should not "notice" that God insists that the Gen 2:3 event is what establishes the Sabbath.

There is nothing in at ll in Gen 2:3 about "pick one day in seven and then keep it holy".

Rather God points the very day - even though in Gen 2 - it is Adam's second day of life - not his seventh day of life.

Exodus 20 goes back to Genesis giving the basis for the command. But Genesis standing alone gives no such command.

Not according to God in Ex 20:11 - God says the Gen 2:3 event alone makes the Sabbath holy.

It is something we call "progressive revelation." You can't read back into Scripture that which is not there.

Moses is writing both Gen 2:3 AND Ex 20:11 for the SAME audience. When Moses tells us in Ex 20:11 that the Gen 2:3 facts alone make the Sabbath - and that this is God's view of it - we can believe him.

It is the same with the Gen 6 and 7 reference to clean and unclean animals. They are defined later in Lev 11 - it is the same author writing both books - for the same audience. He does not have to keep repeating the laws every time he mentions them - because Leviticus and Genesis AND the TEN Commandments are all given to Moses's readers at the same time - at Sinai.

Adam did not have the revelation that Moses did.

That is an assumption that is not supported by scripture.

Christ said in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" when it was "MADE" - not "mankind MADE" for the Sabbath. BOTH are made in Genesis 1 and 2 during Creation week. Even God affirms this in Ex 20:11.

Your speculation is that God made the day for mankind and then forgot to tell mankind about it until Ex 20:11.

Which is disproven with Ex 16 BEFORE the Ex 20 event - where the Sabbath was to be remembered. Mankind knew about it in Gen 2.

There is no Sinai in Genesis. How would Adam know about such future events.

Adam had God right there talking to him - he did not need for Moses to come along and tell him what God was saying.

God himself declares that the Gen 2:3 facts alone establish the Sabbath that is "MADE for mankind".

You can't read into Scripture those things that are not there. Did Adam know about Pentecost as well?

The annual feasts of Lev 23 where not part of the 7 day creation week.

However the REASON that the week is SEVEN days and not SIX - from Genesis onward is because of the actual Sabbath. The 7th day of the week that is explicitly said to be set aside, sanctified, made as a Holy Day - IN the Genesis 2:3 text.

The sabbath is given to the nation of Israel as a sign of a covenant between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It was never given to the Gentiles.

We have only "you" as the source for that idea.

By contrast we have the Bible telling us that Christ said the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27.

And God said in Ex 20:11 that the Gen 2:1-3 facts alone establish the MAKING of the Sabbath.

It has nothing to do with the six days of creation, and the day "God rested."

It does if you actually read Ex 20:12 and Genesis 2:1-3.

The text does NOT say "And God rested one day out of seven so that man might pick one day out of seven - of his own choosing and rest"

For that idea in Gen 2:3 we would need "you" as the source.

God rested one day out of seven in that creation week, setting for a principle for man to follow.

The text of Gen 2:3 does not say "one day out of seven" for that idea we would have only "you" as the source.

The actual text says nothing at all about "one day out of seven"[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Rather it is THE Seventh day - that is THE Sabbath day and that WAS MADE holy back in Gen 2:3 -- according to God's own statement.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:3
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
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The day is irrelevant except to the Jews.

Until you read the Bible and find that it is not "A seventh day of YOUR choosing" but rather it is "THE Seventh day"

"The REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27 not "just the Jews" on the day it was MADE - at its origin -

"From Sabbath to Sabbath...shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 55:23

It is still irrelevant to the Gentiles.

Until you read Isaiah 56, and 66, and Mark 2:27 and Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 and Heb 4.

God speaks of Gentiles keeping Sabbath in the past - in Isaiah's day.

Is 56
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes the sabbath was made for all mankind but the Sabbath law application now and in the new heavens and earth is not the Saturday application but the eternal EIGHTH day application or first day of the week on which the Lord rose again. This is the emphasis in all the new covenant Messianic feast types. This is the new Sabbath "made" in Psalm 118:24 (can't refer to Saturday because this is a new one "made" in direct reference to resurrection of Christ). This is the first Sabbath in a new series (Mk. 16:9). This is the better Sabbath based upon the greater work of our redeemer (Heb. 4:9-10). This is the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). This is the "Lord's Day" Sunday from the first to the fourth centuires. This is the Creational Sabbath free from all legalism under levitical laws but is a day set aside to give the world witness that we Christians have a wonderful hope based solely in the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ that points to an eternal eighth day of ETERNAL REST from sin in a sinless world full of joy and gladness - halalluah!

All your surmising is based on one FALSE presupposition, hence EVERYTHING ELSE about it, becomes FALSE. That one FALSE <principle> of yours assumed, is this, <<first day of the week on which the Lord rose again>>.

How you are of the opinion you can convince anyone with the least of Christian knowledge of the Scriptures, only you are able to boast.

Tragedy is it, <<the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ that points to an eternal eighth day of ETERNAL REST from sin in a sinless world full of joy and gladness...>>. Such dissatisfaction with God-in-Christ's "finished works on the Seventh Day"! Your dogma is far worse than the SDA's thousand years' judgement in heaven!

The redemptive work of Jesus Christ IS, <finished>, "once for all and ever". Alleluia, "THIS IS The Thousand Years The First Resurrection" that points to Christ's <finished> work of the only eternal REST from sin in a sinful world full of pain and sadness.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When we read "the details" of both Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:11 we find that God Himself insists that the Gen 2:3 event alone makes the Sabbath holy and blessed.

God says that in the past "He MADE" the Sabbath holy - at that Gen 2:3 event. You keep insisting that we should not "notice" that God insists that the Gen 2:3 event is what establishes the Sabbath.

When we read "the details" of both Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:11 we find that God Himself insists that the Gen 2:3 event alone makes the Sabbath holy and blessed. God says that in the past "He RESTED the Seventh Day". Exodus 20 says “because God in it RESTED, THEREFORE God made the Sabbath holy”.

We talked about this before, Bob Ryan; jy smeer jouself net daaraan af. The <<event … that Gen 2:3>> refers to is further described and recorded accurately in chapter 3 from verse 8 to the end, verse 24. That first of all Sabbaths of the LORD GOD was as much Day-of-God’s-Rest as Day-of-God’s-JUDGMENT!

And so were all subsequent Seventh Day Sabbaths-OF-THE-LORD-GOD. And so was the Seventh Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD “IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME” IN CHRIST IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. And so again SHALL be the Seventh Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD in the last and Judgment-Day at the Coming-Again of Jesus Christ and “the RESURRECTION OF ALL THE DEAD”—a day of JUDGMENT AS OF THE REST OF GOD!

You indeed <keep insisting that we should not "notice" that God insists that the Gen 2:3 event is what establishes the Sabbath> … IN CHRIST!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

....................
Is 56
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Isaiah is weightless rhetoric unless Christ is the Substance of its very human, words.

Dear Bob, you should have ended your post with "in Christ" in the same sentence of Isaiah, <<...I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off IN CHRIST!>>.

The same applies to the rest of whatever you quoted, <<...“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths IN CHRIST,

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 10
10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Heb 4
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news (Gospel) preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Cor 10
10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Heb 4
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news (Gospel) preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard

gentiles NEVER were placed under the jewish Sabbath, so you have ONLY false revelations from Ellen White to stand upon!