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Interesting witness method - Sheep and Goats

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Gorship, Jul 19, 2013.

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  1. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Hi guys!

    So I just watched "How to answer the fool" By Sye Ten bruggencate, Great movie by the way!

    anyway, at the end of the movie there is a witness encounter, hes talking to this gentlemen and he mentions "Sheep and Goats" He says that one thing we never read in the Bible is Goats becoming sheep, and that Jesus said that the sheep hear his voice and come to him, so he (sye) prays that the gentlemen is a sheep and comes to Jesus. If not by Sye telling him this he his fattening him for the slaughter so he (sye) prays that he puts his face in the carpet and prays for salvation.

    Sye (I think) is a Calvinist and this at the very least affirms my idea that he is. Regardless!

    So My two questions for our discussion are as follows

    1) for the Calvinists - Is this how you would approach witnessing do you agree with his conclusion on the sheep and the goat parable

    2) For the non cals - What would our response be to this parable or our way of reading the passage in context and understanding it (I have a few ideas but I would love to hear from everyone)

    aaaaaand Go!

    play nice.
     
    #1 Gorship, Jul 19, 2013
  2. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    #2 Gorship, Jul 20, 2013
  3. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    I personally think it is hilarious that Calvinists have discussions over what the best methods are in the APPROACH of evangelism if they believe that God has already predetermined who will respond and who will not:laugh: Makes absolutely no sense that Calvinists would appeal to methods when as William Carey's pastor told him "God will save those whom he has chosen to save when He is good and ready".
     
    #3 DrJamesAch, Jul 20, 2013
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    It makes perfect sense, your lack of understanding of Scripture is not a standard. Election and evangelism are in perfect harmony. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. How does election prevent evangelism? What is your Scripture reference for such a notion?
     
    #4 saturneptune, Jul 20, 2013
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't matter whether one is of C or A persuasion (or somewhere inbetween).

    Throw out the gospel net, pull in the fish - let God decide which are "good" fish and which are "bad".

    Matthew 13
    47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.​

    HankD​
     
    #5 HankD, Jul 20, 2013
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Yup. 2 Timothy 2:8-10 as well.
     
    #6 preacher4truth, Jul 20, 2013
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Always good to see even the sovereignty of man crowd talking about the great Calvinist missionary, William Carey. Or Judson. Or a thousand others.

    The understanding that a sovereign God who has sovereignly given His elect responsibility to proclaim the Gospel to the lost drives missions. Hence Calvinists are the most mission-minded people I know.

    Modern foreign missions began and flourished with Particular (Calvinist) Baptist churches

    One church I know quite well devotes nearly 75% of the giving to third world missions. Wonder how many semi-pelagian/Arminian churches are that concerned with third world missions? :wavey:
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Jul 20, 2013
  8. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    So all you calvinists here think he was in the right to let the gentlemen know that he may not end up being a sheep?

    Would you tell someone that they may not be part of the elect? have you ever?
     
    #8 Gorship, Jul 20, 2013
  9. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I know people who have told others perhaps they just aren't elect. Then I've heard they've gotten born again afterwards.

    It could go along the lines of making 'your calling and election sure' and to 'examine whether we are in the faith', or perhaps we aren't and are reprobate. There is nothing wrong with good soul searching and it would be much better to do this under the Sun.

    I recall Whitefield did this when he found out he wasn't truly a Christian and begged God for mercy, and was greatly used thereafter.
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Jul 20, 2013
  10. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    In this encounter though the man is told either he is a goat and has no hope, or he is a sheep and needs to repent.

    Would you say to someone that they may not have a chance at all?
     
    #10 Gorship, Jul 20, 2013
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Making sure you understand biblical evangelism. We are "marturian" (witnesses) of the death/burial/resurrection message of Jesus. Our responsibility is to accurately tell what we KNOW, the truth.

    Truth is that I was a sinner, wrath of God abiding on me.
    God so worked and moved in me that I then repented and believed the Gospel
    That is what I share.

    Bad news and Good news. And I know that God, who is the only one who saves, will work in the heart of His elect, regenerating and granting them repentance and faith. Not ONE of those chosen before the world began will be lost, to the praise of His glorious grace. For we all agree we SHOULD go to hell!

    If a person does not respond to this presentation, I do NOT and would never THINK of saying "You are a goat" :) Hey, they could have said that of me over and over as I rejected the Gospel . . but I really was His sheep. And when given the ability - because again we agree NO ONE has the ability to believe or change himself; you must be (passive) born again, the outside work of God on me) - then I did repent and believe.

    Sgt Friday is my role motto: "Just the facts, ma'am" I remember Dragnet. We proclaim the facts, with passion, over and over. And God will use the Word as part of the work of the holy Spirit in regeneration.
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, Jul 20, 2013
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The guy said that Jesus died for HIS people.

    My first question would be, "Who are HIS people?"

    My second question would be, "How do I know if I am one of Jesus's people?"

    I loved when I got saved, the preacher I heard said Jesus died for EVERY MAN. When I heard that I was glad, because I knew Jesus died for ME. :thumbs:
     
    #12 Winman, Jul 20, 2013
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Wouldn't that make Jesus pretty ineffective?
     
    #13 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 20, 2013
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Not any more ineffective than purposely passing by billions of persons and letting them go to hell.
     
    #14 Winman, Jul 20, 2013
  15. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Lets say there was a huge heat wave making people sick
    I then had a household of family that i wanted to make sure didnt get sick, so then, If I provided water for this household of people, and had enough water to keep everyone hydrated, I gave everyone information on why they needed the water and where it was and how to get it, But only a couple followed my instruction and drank water, the rest they chose not to drink it and they got sick.

    Was I ineffective in providing a way for all to not get sick?
    Did I leave anyone out?
    Anyone who got sick, cant say that I didn't warn them or tell them how to find water.

    Obviously its not a perfect picture. However it would seem the Calvinist would say that the man selects certain people in the household on a remote control to walk them to the water and drink. The rest of them just weren't chosen to be controlled to the water and thus they are sick.
     
    #15 Gorship, Jul 20, 2013
  16. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    William Carey was a Calvinist. His Pastor was not. He was a HyperCalvinist.

    The reason is very simple. God commands us to do things. We should do them.
     
    #16 Havensdad, Jul 20, 2013
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    That doesn't even make sense. If Jesus saves every single person He purposes to save, that makes Him PERFECTLY effective.
     
    #17 Havensdad, Jul 20, 2013
  18. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Does God not desire all to be saved? Did God then create some people for the only purpose to take residence in Hell?
     
    #18 Gorship, Jul 20, 2013
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