Can we know the mechanics of salvation

[Revmitchell]

There is no doubt that God is sovereign in all things but more specifically for this discussion He is most definitely sovereign in regards to the salvation of man. We see in scripture that God decided before all of creation as we know it that He would provide salvation for the creation He knew would fail Him and rebel against Him. This is made clear in Ephesians 1:4.

It is also clear that we are chosen by God for salvation. John 1:13 speaks to this when it makes clear that salvation is by the will of God. Man cannot provide for his own salvation but it has to come from the decision of God. There is no one else in all the universe that can provide salvation for fallen man. Scripture makes this clear further by use of terms like "predestined" and "the elect". Several verses that use these terms are 2 Peter 1:10; and Ephesians 1:5.

But scripture is also clear that man has a responsibility to receive salvation. This issue is made clear in passages like John 1:12; 3:16; and Romans 10:9-10. Here we see, especially in the latter verse, the scriptural mechanics of just how that receiving is to occur. There is a responsibility on man's part which obligates us to 1.) believe, scripture makes it clear that mans is to respond to God by believing. This has always been the case. 2.) That mans is to respond by confessing. Abraham had righteousness because he responded with belief in the things of God. Scripture makes clear that belief is a response by man to God and the gospel. The verses following 9 and 10 leading up to verse 17 shows that the gospel is preached by man and man cannot respond without it but he does respond only because of it. Never the less man responds.

There are two factors that hold man responsible to respond to the gospel. One has just been mentioned and it is the preaching of the gospel using the word of God. And the second is the testimony of creation that shows the glory and existence of God. Psalm 19:1 says that the heavens show God's glory and Romans 1:18-20 tells us that all of creation gives testimony to the lost about His existence and that is a factor in man's responsibility and accountability to responding to the gospel.

Salvation is provided to man when he responds to the gospel. This was further illustrated by Zaccheaus. It was only after he responded to Jesus that Jesus declared that salvation had come to his house. It was only after Abraham responded to God that it was claimed by God that he was righteous.


___________________________________________________________

The purpose of this thread:

1. Do not attack the view of someone else.

2. Do not try to represent the view or logic of someone else.

3. Only try to make an opposing case using your position and your position alone.

4. This was the practice of Jesus in Matthew 5

5. Do not derail this thread by trying to debate how I am asking this thread be done. The issue here is the mechanics of salvation not rules 1-5

6. Also do not just post a link to something else and say go read this it is my position. Let's not be lazy here.

I am only asking for this particular thread to be handled this way. If you find it difficult to do this then I am asking that you refrain from taking part in this thread. I have begun by sticking to these rules. Do you have the ability to do this as well?

 

[InTheLight]

Great post. Thumbs up.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no doubt that God is sovereign in all things but more specifically for this discussion He is most definitely sovereign in regards to the salvation of man. We see in scripture that God decided before all of creation as we know it that He would provide salvation for the creation He knew would fail Him and rebel against Him. This is made clear in Ephesians 1:4.

It is also clear that we are chosen by God for salvation. John 1:13 speaks to this when it makes clear that salvation is by the will of God. Man cannot provide for his own salvation but it has to come from the decision of God. There is no one else in all the universe that can provide salvation for fallen man. Scripture makes this clear further by use of terms like "predestined" and "the elect". Several verses that use these terms are 2 Peter 1:10; and Ephesians 1:5.

Agreed!

But scripture is also clear that man has a responsibility to receive salvation.

I would broaden this to include responsibility for his own sinful condition and responsibility to respond to the gospel.

This issue is made clear in passages like John 1:12; 3:16; Romans 10:9-10

All these passages are subject to interpretation within their own context. This will be the point of contention.

Here we see, especially in the latter verse, the scriptural mechanics of just how that receiving is to occur.

Again, this is a point of interpretation. There is no question that "with the heart man believeth" but the issue is what kind of heart is that. How has the word effected that heart so that it produces that consequence? Is that word the "rhema" of Romans 10:17 rather than merely spoken or read by men but infused by the power of God's command so that it comes "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance"????? These are the issues of text and context that divide us.

There is a responsibility on man's part which obligates us to 1.) believe, scripture makes it clear that mans is to respond to God by believing.

By the way you word the above sentences you are presuming your own position before you have proven it. Neither responsiblity or obligation demands ability IF we are responsible for the loss of that ability. Hence, I agree we have the obligation by direct command of God to repent and beleive the gospel.

This has always been the case. 2.) That mans is to respond by confessing.

Agreed! God has predestinated the means as well as the persons and none will be saved without repentance and faith in the gospel. However, what is the cause of meeting the obligation and what is the effect is quite another question.

Abraham had righteousness because he responded with belief in the things of God. Scripture makes clear that belief is a response by man to God and the gospel. The verses following 9 and 10 leading up to verse 17 shows that the gospel is preached by man and man cannot respond without it but he does respond only because of it. Never the less man responds.

Agreed! But again, only when we get to verse 17 do we find any basis for cause and effects. Paul did not use the term "logos" for "word" but "rhema" and "rhema" is associated with a "command." This "command" in relationship to the gospel and faith is spelled out in 2 Cor. 4:6 in unequivocal terms.

There are two factors that hold man responsible to respond to the gospel. One has just been mentioned and it is the preaching of the gospel using the word of God. And the second is the testimony of creation that shows the glory and existence of God. Psalm 19:1 says that the heavens show God's glory and Romans 1:18-20 tells us that all of creation gives testimony to the lost about His existence and that is a factor in man's responsibility and accountability to responding to the gospel.

These things render man "without excuse" but do not provide ability only responsibility. Again, lack of ability is not God's fault but man's fault and therefore, he is responsible for his own inability. For example, we are commanded to be "perfect EVEN AS God is Perfect"! Here is the command and thus we are responsible but do we have that kind of "EVEN AS" ability to perform this command? If not, whose fault is it? God's or man?

Salvation is provided to man when he responds to the gospel.

Again, you are assuming your own position by your wording. Furthermore, you are assuming "salvation" is limited to gospel conversion when it is not.

This was further illustrated by Zaccheaus. It was only after he responded to Jesus that Jesus declared that salvation had come to his house.

"had" come does not prove it came AFTER Christ entered his house or that it refers only to gospel conversion.

It was only after Abraham responded to God that it was claimed by God that he was righteous.

Here is a subject that few understand. The righteousness here is "imputed" righteousness which is a LEGAL righteousness. Prior to faith man is LEGALLY condemned by sin to eternal death. Justification reverse this LEGAL condemnation from JUST but LEGAL condemnation to eternal death to JUST and LEGAL righteous to eternal life. However, quickening by the Spirit has nothing to do with LEGAL position before God but to one's PERSONAL SPIRITUAL condition of eternal life. The former has to do with legal POSITION of sonship while the latter has to do with your actual spiritual CONDITION as a child born of God. Therefore, at regeneration/conversion we have "eternal life" in two distinctly different ways. One is by quickening which makes us SPIRITUALLY ALIVE by CONDITION whereas the other is by justification and makes provides us ETERNAL LIFE legally by POSITION. The former is a child by spiritual birth while the latter is sonship by legal adoption.

 

[Revmitchell]

Agreed!



I would broaden this to include responsibility for his own sinful condition and responsibility to respond to the gospel.

You have already gone against the purpose of this thread. While you have done it politely you have not simply refuted my position by only posting yours.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have already gone against the purpose of this thread. While you have done it politely you have not simply refuted my position by only posting yours.

Your rules said to respond using only my own position. That is what I did. Are you confining us to YOUR position so that we are not able to respond by giving OUR position? Your position limited responsiblity to only one aspect. That is not my position and I believe to leave that unsaid gives your position an unfair advantage.

What rule did I break?

 

[Revmitchell]

Your rules said to respond using only my own position. That is what I did. Are you confining us to YOUR position so that we are not able to respond by giving OUR position? Your position limited responsiblity to only one aspect. That is not my position and I believe to leave that unsaid gives your position an unfair advantage.

What rule did I break?

here it is:

By the way you word the above sentences you are presuming your own position before you have proven it.

Do not try to represent someone's view or logic.You do not need to refer to another person or their position. Just your view and the scriptural reference.

 

[The Biblicist]

here it is:



Do not try to represent someone's view or logic.You do not need to refer to another person or their position. Just your view and the scriptural reference.

So I should not respond to your stated position at all but simply read yours and then follow it by placing my own position down as you did yours?

 

[Revmitchell]

So I should not respond to your stated position at all but simply read yours and then follow it by placing my own position down as you did yours?

Yes Please........

 

[Revmitchell]

God has predestinated the means as well as the persons and none will be saved without repentance and faith in the gospel.

This is a good response minus scripture

However, what is the cause of meeting the obligation and what is the effect is quite another question.

A better response would be "However, my position is......"




[/QUOTE]

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no doubt that God is sovereign in all things but more specifically for this discussion He is most definitely sovereign in regards to the salvation of man. We see in scripture that God decided before all of creation as we know it that He would provide salvation for the creation He knew would fail Him and rebel against Him. This is made clear in Ephesians 1:4.

It is also clear that we are chosen by God for salvation. John 1:13 speaks to this when it makes clear that salvation is by the will of God. Man cannot provide for his own salvation but it has to come from the decision of God. There is no one else in all the universe that can provide salvation for fallen man. Scripture makes this clear further by use of terms like "predestined" and "the elect". Several verses that use these terms are 2 Peter 1:10; and Ephesians 1:5.

To save time I will simply agree with what has been said and use it for my own position.

I would simply add to the above at this precise point where you left off that God's purpose of election is to salvation not to damnation as the very expression "election to salvation" and "vessels of mercy" presuppose the fall and that all men are justly condemned to eternal hell and are totally depraved due to the fall (Rom. 5:12-19).

Therefore, Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world because the world was "condemned already." Therefore, according to justice all men equally are condemned "already" and deserve hell and their mindset is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be." Thus if God simply left all men alone in their sins that would be perfectly just. However, if God sovereignly elected some to salvation it could not possibly be due to anything found in them as they are no different from those who continue in their sin. Hence, neither justice upon the non-elect or mercy upon the elect makes God a respector of persons as both equally deserve condemnation and neither deserve mercy.

However, God has equallly chosen the means to bring the elect to salvation and it is "through the sanctification of the Spirit (setting apart by regeneration) and belief of the truth of the gospel. God has also chosen the foolisness of preaching to save his chosen people from their sins. Whenever we preach the gospel we are victorious whether men receive it or reject it as it glorifies God when they reject it as much as when they receive it:

2 Cor. 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

We preach the gospel to all men calling them to repent and beleive in Christ but the gospel comes to the elect NOT IN WORD ONLY as it does to others, but "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

However, all men under the sound of gospel preaching are equally responsible and called by the gospel to repent and believe and the only thing that prevents any man from doing so is His own refusal to do so due to his own depraved nature due to his own sin in Adam (Rom. 5:12-19). Nothing prevents the most depraved sinner from coming to Christ but his own resistant will (Rom. 8:7).

Therefore, all who go to hell have none to blame but their own choice and none who go to heaven have anything to boast about but the grace of God.


I merely presented my position, I did not defend it.

 

[Revmitchell]

To save time I will simply agree with what has been said and use it for my own position.

I would simply add to the above at this precise point where you left off that God's purpose of election is to salvation not to damnation as the very expression "election to salvation" and "vessels of mercy" presuppose the fall and that all men are justly condemned to eternal hell and are totally depraved due to the fall (Rom. 5:12-19).

Therefore, Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world because the world was "condemned already." Therefore, according to justice all men equally are condemned "already" and deserve hell and their mindset is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be." Thus if God simply left all men alone in their sins that would be perfectly just. However, if God sovereignly elected some to salvation it could not possibly be due to anything found in them as they are no different from those who continue in their sin. Hence, neither justice upon the non-elect or mercy upon the elect makes God a respector of persons as both equally deserve condemnation and neither deserve mercy.

However, God has equallly chosen the means to bring the elect to salvation and it is "through the sanctification of the Spirit (setting apart by regeneration) and belief of the truth of the gospel. God has also chosen the foolisness of preaching to save his chosen people from their sins. Whenever we preach the gospel we are victorious whether men receive it or reject it as it glorifies God when they reject it as much as when they receive it:

2 Cor. 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

We preach the gospel to all men calling them to repent and beleive in Christ but the gospel comes to the elect NOT IN WORD ONLY as it does to others, but "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

However, all men under the sound of gospel preaching are equally called and responsible to repent and believe and the only thing that prevents any man from doing so is His own refusal to do so due to his own depraved nature due to his own sin in Adam (Rom. 5:12-19). Nothing prevents the most depraved sinner from coming to Christ but his own resistant will (Rom. 8:7).

Therefore, all who go to hell have none to blame but their own choice and none who go to heaven have anything to boast about but the grace of God.

Very nice! I would add that the gospel invitation (grace) is extended to all men. (John 3:16) and that the grace of God can be received in vain (I Cor 6:1) in other words while grace is offered and reaches the intended recipient, it does not always have the desired effect. We know that God desire all men to be saved (I Timothy 2:4) in the same way sin passed to all men (Romans 5:12) which also shows that sin passed to all men ....why? simply because all men have sinned.

 

[The Biblicist]

Very nice! I would add that the gospel invitation (grace) is extended to all men. (John 3:16) and that the grace of God can be received in vain (I Cor 6:1) in other words while grace is offered and reaches the intended recipient, it does not always have the desired effect. We know that God desire all men to be saved (I Timothy 2:4) in the same way sin passed to all men (Romans 5:12) which also shows that sin passed to all men ....why? simply because all men have sinned.

I understand "all" in contexts of redemptive grace to mean "all without distinction" rather than "all without exception." I understand it that way because it is used by Jewish writers in a Jewish historical context in response to the Jewish mind that none can be saved apart from becoming a Jew and that Jews "have no fellowship with" Samaritans or gentiles as they regard them unclean. Also,, from the fact that Acts 1:8 was not obeyed by the church at Jerusalem in regard to "all nations" until God brought persecution upon the church (Acts 8:1) because they limited salvation to Jews. Also, from the response of the church to Peter going to gentiles in Acts 11:1-17 as they did not believe God granted repentance unto the gentiles until that pointe (v. 17).

 

[Revmitchell]

I understand "all" in contexts of redemptive grace to mean "all without distinction" rather than "all without exception." I understand it that way because it is used by Jewish writers in a Jewish historical context in response to the Jewish mind that none can be saved apart from becoming a Jew and that Jews "have no fellowship with" Samaritans or gentiles as they regard them unclean. Also,, from the fact that Acts 1:8 was not obeyed by the church at Jerusalem in regard to "all nations" until God brought persecution upon the church (Acts 8:1) because they limited salvation to Jews. Also, from the response of the church to Peter going to gentiles in Acts 11:1-17 as they did not believe God granted repentance unto the gentiles until that pointe (v. 17).

It is my position that Jesus came teaching a new understanding of the gospel. The Jewish understanding at the time of Christ failed to comprehend the true nature of the gospel and the Messiah. In John 3:16 Jesus was clearing this up with Nicodemus. Not only did Nicodemus and the other pharisees misunderstand the what salvation was based on (John3:5-6) but to whom it would be available to (John 3:16). And we can now see that the gospel was inclusive to "all" even to the Samaritans that the Jews were to have no part of. Therefore we see that not only was the gospel inclusive to all nations but to all men.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is my position that Jesus came teaching a new understanding of the gospel. The Jewish understanding at the time of Christ failed to comprehend the true nature of the gospel and the Messiah. In John 3:16 Jesus was clearing this up with Nicodemus. Not only did Nicodemus and the other pharisees misunderstand the what salvation was based on (John3:5-6) but to whom it would be available to (John 3:16). And we can now see that the gospel was inclusive to "all" even to the Samaritans that the Jews were to have no part of. Therefore we see that not only was the gospel inclusive to all nations but to all men.

I sorta figured that was your position. I held your position before my present position. I am not to hard on those who reject my position because I not only held the same position formally but understand the difficulties of the transition from the former to the latter.

 

[Revmitchell]

I sorta figured that was your position. I held your position before my present position. I am not to hard on those who reject my position because I not only held the same position formally but understand the difficulties of the transition from the former to the latter.

Ok now you are getting off track again. Otherwise I have enjoyed the way it has been going.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps I am one of the few on the BB that has the view that absolutely no human volition or authority is involved in salvation.

The Scriptures teach that Christ is the author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith. (Heb. 12:2) It then follows that consistency with the Scriptures require three (or more) "therefore" statements.

1) Therefore, even the faith of the believer is a gift given by God. When Christ states, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me..." (John 12:32) it does not oblige that the verse be specific ONLY to salvation, but may also be recognized as the AUTHORITY that Christ would gain. It is historically evident that ALL are not drawn to salvation, rather some continue throughout life with giving absolutely no thought toward Christ much less godliness. Therefore the ONLY appropriate application in which ALL are drawn must be when:

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Romans 14)

​

Because Christ now has total control of Death and Hell, ALL will be drawn and ALL will proclaim in EVERY tongue.


2) Therefore, all expressions of faith and belief is responsive not active in securing or providing any catalyst for salvation. Each example of salvation given in the Scriptures demonstrates that the cry, "What must I do to be saved" is the cry of one schooled in the god's or God being appeased by some sacrifice or offering.

What is the response by the believer to the question? BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Belief is not something one can self generate, but is a condition in which a systematic set of foundational truths is present already and the person reacts or responds from that condition. In effect - salvation has already taken place and the person must be "reeducated" from the thinking that God must be appeased and brought to the understanding that God is Himself the propitiation. (1 John)


3) Therefore, the view of Ephesians (all the chapter 2) is held consistent as salvation from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification is totally God's business.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

​

There is NOT ONE iota of human involvement, volition or "free will/choice" in ANY expression by Paul in the above passage.

Rather, Paul very specifically as I both by bold and underlining, show the work of salvation is totally of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Thank you for your reasoned response.

 

[The Biblicist]

Perhaps I am one of the few on the BB that has the view that absolutely no human volition or authority is involved in salvation.

The Scriptures teach that Christ is the author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith. (Heb. 12:2) It then follows that consistency with the Scriptures require three (or more) "therefore" statements.

1) Therefore, even the faith of the believer is a gift given by God. When Christ states, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me..." (John 12:32) it does not oblige that the verse be specific ONLY to salvation, but may also be recognized as the AUTHORITY that Christ would gain. It is historically evident that ALL are not drawn to salvation, rather some continue throughout life with giving absolutely no thought toward Christ much less godliness. Therefore the ONLY appropriate application in which ALL are drawn must be when:

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Romans 14)

​

Because Christ now has total control of Death and Hell, ALL will be drawn and ALL will proclaim in EVERY tongue.


2) Therefore, all expressions of faith and belief is responsive not active in securing or providing any catalyst for salvation. Each example of salvation given in the Scriptures demonstrates that the cry, "What must I do to be saved" is the cry of one schooled in the god's or God being appeased by some sacrifice or offering.

What is the response by the believer to the question? BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Belief is not something one can self generate, but is a condition in which a systematic set of foundational truths is present already and the person reacts or responds from that condition. In effect - salvation has already taken place and the person must be "reeducated" from the thinking that God must be appeased and brought to the understanding that God is Himself the propitiation. (1 John)


3) Therefore, the view of Ephesians (all the chapter 2) is held consistent as salvation from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification is totally God's business.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

​

There is NOT ONE iota of human involvement, volition or "free will/choice" in ANY expression by Paul in the above passage.

Rather, Paul very specifically as I both by bold and underlining, show the work of salvation is totally of God.

A very well reasoned cause versus effect presentation.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is my position that Christ is the author and finisher of the faith and that it is totally of God. He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit. Further, It is my position that any response from man, when designed and required by God, is consistent with the previous positions. Unless God designs the plan of salvation, implements the plan of salvation, and completes the plan of salvation then there would be no salvation. Man's response whether it be active or inactive is insignificant to its completion. Once we are settled with that last fact then I do not see room for much debate on the issue after that. But that is just my position.

 

[Iconoclast]

8 And Zaccheus having stood, said unto the Lord, `Lo, the half of my goods, sir, I give to the poor, and if of any one anything I did take by false accusation, I give back fourfold.'

9 And Jesus said unto him -- `To-day salvation did come to this house, inasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham;

10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'

Salvation came to Zaccheus house because of the Abrahamic Covenant...he was a lost sheep,and HAD to be saved...he was called by name,and that quite effectually.