Featured God's coercion of the thoughts of men.

Do you think, that a proper conclusion of the Lord's foreknowing of Peter's denial is that God coerces the thoughts of men?

Do you think that's what these proverbs teach?

Proverbs 16:1 KJV
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 KJV
There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Proverbs 20:24 KJV
Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?​

If not, how is it that the Lord knew that Peter would deny Him?

(What about Judas' betrayal too?).

Did Peter have the thought to deny the Lord before he denied Him?

(If Peter had the thought to deny the Lord before he denied Him, would not God have put that thought in his mind, if this thought was necessary to cause such a denial?).

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Also, how many here are familiar with Boethius?

 

Hey Van.

Quite an interesting read on your first paragraph here. I'll just say that much.

Concerning the rest of your post:

If the thought of denial was mandatory for the fruition of such denial, and Jesus foreknew Peter's denial, that would mean that God foreknows our thoughts, correct?

If it is God who causes men's actions to fruit (Pr. 20:24), and He already knows what actions are going to take place in the future, and the thought of, say, eating an apple, needs to be present before eating that apple, that must mean that God coerces the thoughts of men, right?

 

I agree.

(See also 1Pet. 2:8).

 

John Locke said that "I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts".

It says in the Proverbs, that "as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" (23:7, KJV).

This scripture is in reference to the man that has an evil eye though. Do you think that this has a wider application, so that, the action of men always follows thoughts?

 

God made Israel wander from His ways:

Isaiah 63:17a, ESV
O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?​

God is responsible for the evil done in a city:

Amos 3:6, NKJV
If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?​

If it it not God that brings about this evil mentioned below, "who else could it be"?

Job 9:24, NKJV
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked.
He covers the faces of its judges.
If it is not He, who else could it be?​

God makes darkness and calamity:

Isaiah 45:7, NKJV
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’​

Both Satan and those he deceives belong to God:

Job 12:16b, NKJV
The deceived and the deceiver are His.​

He formed the crooked serpent.

Job 26:13, KJV
his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.​

I did a post a while back explaining how evil is attributed to both Satan and God, here's the link.

 

Psalm 33:11 says that "The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart to all generations" (NKJV).

In the case of Amaziah, since he sinned (idolatry, cf. 2Chron. 25:14-16), his disposition "came of God", so that Amaziah would be destroyed (2Chron. 25:20). See also 1 Kings 12:15.

Mark Driscoll either quoted someone or made this up himself, he said that the will of God and the will of man are like a bicycle pedal. As the one pedal goes, the other goes with it (both work with each other and cannot function without the other). I think that sums it up pretty well and is what Proverbs 19:21 and 20:24 are saying.

 

Precisely.

 

James is probably combating the belief that, God brings about the evil that I am doing, so how can I stop God's plan (cp. Romans 9:16-24)?

The recipients of the Roman letter were dealing with this same issue. Paul predicts that his recipients would say “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” in response to the sovereignty of God's plan:

Romans 9, NASB
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”​

(In the previous verse, Paul speaks about how God used Pharaoh for His sovereign purpose).

The solution to the problem, is that God is not the immediate cause of the evil that a person is doing. The evil is coming from the sinful nature of the man, which finds its roots all the way back to Satan, which, not immediately, is traced back to God, who is responsible for the evil done.

James said, that God "Himself does not tempt anyone" (Italic emphasis mine):

James 1, NASB, bold emphasis mine
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.​

To say that when I sin, God is the immediate cause of the evil done, is to say that God's (immediate) plans towards me are not for good, but for evil. Such a belief would contradict Romans 9:22-23; Galatians 6:8-10; 1 Peter 1:13 and Jeremiah 29:11.

Paul speaks against this kind of thinking:

Romans 3, NASB
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.​

When a sinner repents and God works on that sinner to turn him into a vessel fitted for honour, it demonstrates the righteousness of God. God, who is the potter, takes pleasure in doing this (Philippians 2:13). It demonstrates, to reiterate for emphasis: His righteousness (1Cor. 1:30; Romans 9:22-24; 11:30-32; Eph. 2:8-10). Thus, God's plans are for good for the saint. The evil that a man does before he becomes a saint, or the evil that the saint does before maturation is not in God's immediate plan, seeing as the merit of that evil is evil (Gal. 6:8-9), and not good (or how can God's plans be good for the saint if He intends the saint to abound in sin, when the result of that sin is evil - Gal. 6:8-9?).

 

That's the thing with online interactions eh? Words without tone, emotion or facial expression are subject to multiple interpretations.

Certainly sounds trite and dismissive to me

Teehee.

If thoughts are mandatory for actions, then God must have planted the thought of denial in Peter's mind.

Where I was sort of stuck, was, with the context rule and Proverbs 23:7. It's immediate context is the man with the evil eye (a greedy man), yet I do think it has wider application and that John Locke is at least partially correct. The exception maybe being, (1), that an action done by someone can have multiple interpretations to a subjective outside viewer of those actions and (2), perhaps someone does something without even thinking about it, so that thoughts don't need to be present for these oblivious actions.

I think that the thought originated with Peter and God:

IMO, Boethius' philosophy/theology of fate is crucial for understanding a passage like David's prayer to "turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness" (2Sam. 15:31, KJV).

The thoughts of those who heard Ahithophel's counsel must have been coerced by God. It was "good counsel" that Ahithophel gave (2Sam. 17:14, KJV), and his counsel was known to be extremely wise (2Sam. 16:23), yet his counsel was rejected by his audience (2Sam. 17:14).

Not sure what you mean by "a-temporally" here. Perhaps you could re-word this.

It sounds to me like you're stating Boethius' philosophy/theology.

 

So, God, in the immediate sense, has plans for good for the saint (Jer. 29:11; Romans 9:22-23). But Satan and his evil, an instrument of God in the distal, is used by God to work righteousness in the saint (Rom. 11:32). The thought shouldn't be to sin more so that more glory abounds to God who is merciful and does take pleasure in working in the saint (Rom. 3:7; 5:20; Philippians 2:13), but rather to work out our own salvation, to labour so that there will be a better rest in the coming age (Heb. 4:9-13). God Himself does not tempt anyone, but the evil that is done is attributed to God (who formed that crooked serpent - Job 26:13) in the distal.