Featured The status of man before God.

Webdog is right Willis, look at your own statement. We being dead in what?

Trespasses and sins!

Now if it is our trespasses and sins that make us dead, what do we have to do to get out of those trespasses and sins and be made alive?

We have to believe! Until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins, you cannot be quickened or made alive until all your sins are washed away.

You can't be quickened and dead in sins at the same time. This is why I showed Colossians 2:13, this verse defines what "quickened" means. It is when we are forgiven all our sins.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

To be "quickened" is to have all your sins and trespasses forgiven. And that cannot happen until you believe, we are justified by faith.

I too am shocked you can fall for this nonsense when you once saw right through it.

 

You are mixing apples with oranges! The conversation in Luke 16 was between departed spirits. In John 11 it was not a two way conversation but Christ's word contained power to bring life back into the physical body. None of the other dead bodies in the tombs responded because it was a personal effectual call to Lazerus alone - likewise in the spiritual application within a physically living person but dead spiritually.

 

Brother Webdog, just because my view has changed, doesn't mean I am regurgitating anything. This is where my study has brought me to. Now, let's take a closer look at John 20:31....

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As I have always stated, I believe that faith/belief have always been a gift of God that He bestows unto fallen man. Without this gift, no one could believe that He is and that He is a Rewarder of them which diligently seek Him(Hebrews 11:6). The bible was/is written as an instruction on how we, as christians, are to live, and also how to come to Him in faith believing. Now, without God opening our eyes to see, and opening our ears to hear, and our hearts to receive what His Word says, it's no different than reading Shakespeare. I'd read the bible as a sinner, and I had no clue what 99% of it said. When God quickened me, showed me how vile I had truly became, and I began seeking after Him for His mercy, I began to understand more of what the preacher was preaching and what the Word was saying. I was far from a great theologian(and I still am far from that), but God, through His regenerative power, had given me ears to hear with, eyes to see with, and a new heart to receive with. That is what John 20:31 is really stating. In our fallen state, we couldn't appraoch His throne of Grace. We had no desire to come to Him, yet alone, were able to do so. When God changed my desires, my "want to", I then ran to Him.

 

I believe you are confusing enlightenment with quickening. The scriptures show a man can be enlightened, he can understand the gospel and taste (not eat) of the powers to come, and yet fall away in unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This passage utterly refutes Calvinism no matter how you look at it, because it either refutes Total Inability, or else it refutes Perseverance of the Saints.

This passage shows men can be enlightened, they can "taste" of the heavenly gift and be partakers of the Holy Ghost, they can taste of the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, and be brought to repentance, yet fall away in unbelief.

To taste of something is not the same as to eat something. I believe this passage shows unregenerate men can be taught and enlightened by the word of God to where they understand it, and are convicted to the point of repentance, and yet fall away in unbelief.

The only other explanation for this passage is that a saved person can fall away and lose their salvation.

Note in verses 6 and 7 that God expects that land which has been rained on to bear good crops. That which bears thorns is rejected, nigh unto cursing, and whose end is to be burned. So I believe this passage is not speaking of saved persons, but unregenerate persons brought to the point of repentance who fall away in unbelief.

Either way, this passage refutes Calvinism completely.

But this is enlightenment, not quickening. Colossians 2:13 clearly defines what quickening is, it is to have all your trespasses and sins forgiven, which can only happen after a person first believes.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

No one can be spiritually alive and dead in sins at the same time, therefore you must be forgiven your sins before you can be quickened or spiritually alive.

Jesus can speak to the dead Willis, you know that.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

If you deny that the spiritually dead can hear Jesus, then you are also denying that Jesus has the power to speak to the dead. Think about it.

 

You didn't really address the passage, you gave me your experience and imposed that on the passage. The quickening you mention IS spiritual life. The text is quite clear this comes by believing, NEVER prior. Your studies have taken you away from biblical truth to a systematic theology. To claim John 20:31 is 'really' saying you have been given a heart to receive him is...I just don't know what to say but 'wow'.

 

Convicted 1, now that you have began to see God will give you more light, those that don't see God will take away what light they have and they will start hearing noises in the dark.

 

And in true calvinistic troll fashion, veiled attempt to call all non Cal's lost. I wouldn't worry about hearing noises in the dark, you might want to stop reading the Bible in it, though.

Yeah, what utter darkness to actually believe "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

 

John explicitly states that "light" is "life":

Jn. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is not only true of PHYSICAL life but of Spiritual LIFE (Jn. 1:12-13). Remember the description of the Lost condition is one that is "aleinated from the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE"

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Thus inward light CREATED BY GOD gives the life of God wherein the lost condition the carnal mind set alienates them "from the life of God through ignorance"

Salvation is by the effectual creative command of God to "let there be light" in the inward darkness of the lost man:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

You simply do not understand the difference between God's command of light that gives life and common light (nature, conscience, scriptures) that do not give the light OF LIFE. The difference is between God's Command through the preaching of the gospel and the gospel coming in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:5).

 

Willis has it quite correct.The passage is speaking of the overall purpose of the gospel of John. These things are written that in believing we will have life.
It is not giving in one sentence what is taught all through the book.
In the New Covenant....God gives a new heart , repentance and faith, enabling the sinner to repent and believe the gospel.This regeneration ,happens at a point in time as the Spirit moves upon the sinner in the way Willis has written.

The text does not comment on the order of events,but the results of believing. What you and Winman are suggesting would be like Lazarus rousing himself out of the realm of death.....giving life back to his own dead body, hopping out of the tomb,and asking Jesus..."pick me ,pick me".
Then Jesus reacts and says okay...I will now raise you from the dead???
You want to choose life after all:thumbs::thumbs:

 

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

 

Winman

:laugh::laugh: Not today, not tomorrow, You are on a fools errand so truth will not find you anytime soon.....:wavey:

fool's errand
n. pl. fools' errands
A fruitless mission or undertaking.

fool's errand
n
a fruitless undertaking

fool's′ er′rand
n.
a completely absurd, pointless, or useless errand. :wavey:

 

The entire problem with comparing Lazarus physical death and PHYSICAL resurrection to spiritual death is that the PHYSICAL resurrection was NOT MEANT to convey the raising of a SPIRITUALLY DEAD person to everlasting life, but:

1. To show Christ's power over death and to symbolizing His own physical resurrection from the dead (John 11:25, John 2:19, Acts 2:24)

2. To show to future resurrection of those who DIE IN CHRIST (John 6:40, Matt 22:30, Phil 3:11, 2 Tim 2:18, Rev 20:5-6).

Lazarus was ALREADY SAVED when Christ raised him PHYSICALLY from the dead, so it is an erroneous analogy for the Calvinist to use the example of a SAVED DEAD PERSON as analogous to how Christ "quickens" a SPIRITUALLY DEAD person to life everlasting.

This then would force the Calvinist to conclude (as some have) that Lazarus was not saved until Christ raised him from the dead. This presents 2 problems with Calvinist theology. First of all, it conflicts with Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". It would have Christ saving someone after they have died in their sinful state. Secondly, the Calvinists always affirm that God only loves His, but if Lazarus was not saved until he was raised from the dead, then John 11:36 presents a problem for the Calvinist here: "Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!". Christ loved Lazarus BEFORE He raised him from the dead.

Thus either the Calvinist has to admit that Lazarus was saved, or they must admit to a flaw in their theology about who Christ actually loves in addition to attempting to reconcile Christ bringing a spiritually dead person to everlasting life after he died in his sin. If Lazarus was saved, however, the Calvinist must deal with the erroneous analogy of Christ quickening an ALREADY SAVED person to life physically, to justify their theology of God quickening a spiritually dead person in his LOST state PRIOR to him actually being saved.

Any attempt to use Lazarus as an example of God quickening a person who supposedly has the inability to respond to or hear the gospel fails in light of Lazarus' condition, and to add such a bogus private interpretation is an insult to the purpose behind Christ raising Lazarus from the dead:

"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" 1 Cor 15:36

 

According to Calvinism, no unsaved person could even see the light because of total inability. Now here's a "DUH" moment for you, why is Christ telling someone to WALK IN THE LIGHT WHILE THEY HAVE IT if they had to total inability to do so?

Notice he said that "LEST darkness come upon you" which means DARKNESS WAS NOT YET upon them. The darkness came upon them completely when they REJECTED Christ and RESISTED the light.

If you would read the Bible for what it actually says you wouldn't be so quick to accuse others of foolishly erring, because the only foolish error here is YOURS.

 

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


I say it is given to make that comparison. Look where verse 24 is placed! Verse 21 refers to quickening and verse 25 refers to making the dead live and that hour "NOW IS". Verse 24 says the one hearing "my word" is "passed form death unto life" and this is flat in the middle of quickening the dead.

 

Light is that which enables us to see. You can be in a dark room, though you have seeing eyes, you cannot see without light. Turn on the light, and now you can see. Likewise, man has the ability to believe, but he cannot believe what he does not know and has never heard (Rom 10:14).

Jesus was that light that told us those truths that enables us to believe the truth. This is what is meant by being light. There are many verses to this effect.

Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life

Psa 43:3 O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

The word of God enlightens us that we may know how to be saved. No man is born with this knowledge, and no man would ever conceive the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus and the gospel we would be lost like blind men who cannot find their way. The word of God illuminates and enlightens us so that we will know how to be saved. God's word also directs our paths and tells us how to live so that we do not make mistakes that harm us and others. This is what the scriptures mean by light.

Yes, we are all born ignorant of the gospel, and no man would ever conceive the gospel. It is the revelation of the word of God that teaches us (if we will listen) how to be saved. This is why the scriptures say those who have heard and learned from the Father will come to Jesus (John 6:45)

The carnal mind is simply focused on pleasing the flesh, and thinks like a natural man. Nevertheless, the word of God convicts and instructs us, enabling us to believe in Jesus Christ.

The scriptures do not teach a separate "effectual" and "general" call, that is a man-made fiction. God's word is powerful and can convict any man, such as the men who attempted to tempt Jesus with the woman caught in adultery (John 8), and the men who were convicted by Stephen's preaching (Acts 7).

The scriptures teach that the word of God works effectually in those that believe.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The word of God works effectually in those that believe God's word. If you believe God's word you will act upon it.

It is like shouting fire in a theater, you can easily tell who believes you, because they will immediately run for the exits. Those who do not believe you will remain in their seats.

I get a little tired of you Calvinists telling people we do not understand the word of God. I think the exact OPPOSITE is true, I believe that Calvinism distorts and wrests scripture in a vain attempt to prove their false doctrine. Non-Cals do not constantly have to explain scripture away or redefine words as Calvinism does continuously.

 

First of all, you can't go to John 5 and claim that there is a comparison being made to Lazarus in John 11. Just because resurrection of the dead is spoken of in one place does not mean it has the exact same implications in every other passage in the Bible which is why I gave a list of the resurrections that actually are the context of John 11.

And, since you normally attempt to argue for ordo salutis in a verse, did you notice that the order of John 5:21 is that they are raised FIRST and THEN quickened! That would thus nullify any Calvinist interpretation that the dead are quickened FIRST and THEN saved.

Now if you take this verse as the dead shall hear his voice and live as an effectual call, then you will have to agree with universalism because Jesus gives no limitation in John 5:25, it states that the dead shall hear and live. So either all dead people hear and live which is universalism, or you have misintepreted this passage.

The qualifier is in verse 29:

" Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So in John 5, ALL hear His voice which completely annihilates the Calvinist view that the spiritually dead can not hear the voice of God.

Jesus though made it clear why there are those who HEAR the voice of God, but do not receive life,

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

He did not say "ye CAN NOT come" but that "YE WILL NOT" come. Jesus even specifically spoke of their ABILITY TO SEEK in verse 44:

"How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?"

Thus, not only is John 5 an entirely different context from John 11, but not even the Calvinist interpretation of John 5 itself supports inability, effectual call or irresistible grace.

 

Ach

,

This thread is not about that.Your obsession makes it such.

That is not the teaching...but what else is new.

,

Not really....because I understand the passage.

Because that is the whole duty of man;
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Some were going to be saved and some were not.They were responsible.He the light was right there.there was no where else to direct them to go.
walk in the light...is to live in the light....We preach to all men what they are responsible to do....we know they cannot believe ,unless God enables them...our responsibility is to declare it unto them.

Their ability or lack of it is known by God.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.

16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.

19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.


15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

For many people there is a "day of visitation". Even here on BB. Those who turn from the light go deeper into darkness.

.
I expect nothing more or less from you ACH as you have no credibility here.
Your agenda was spotted from post 1...until this day....we see what you are about.:thumbsup:

 

May I remind you that YOU are the one who denied that raising the physical dead can be compared to raising of the spiritual dead and yet that is precisely the context of John 5:24.

The entire problem with comparing Lazarus physical death and PHYSICAL resurrection to spiritual death is that the PHYSICAL resurrection was NOT MEANT to convey the raising of a SPIRITUALLY DEAD person to everlasting life,. - James

So now you are backpeddling from your denial there is a comparison made in scripture, and no less in the very same gospel of John.

Did you notice that the Father does both and the will of man is not mentioned as causative in either??? Second, can you prove that raising up and quickening were not simeltaenous??? Nope! So much for your argument.

This speaks of the raising of the physical dead not the spiritual dead and yes it is universal but in the sequence you note in verse 29 below. However, raising the spiritual dead is "NOW IS" in verse 25 following verse 25 about passing from death to life.

So all your arguments are based upon ignoring context and silence.

No mention of "call" here! No mention of "voice" here! Again you are ignoring the text and reading into it what you like. There is as much evidence here for the general call and total depravity doctrine.

As I have told you before and as you have conceded, total depravity of will precedes total inability of will ("is not subject" before "neither indeed can be"). Again, no argument at all.

The word "can" refers to ability does it not? The rhetorical nature of the question demands a negative = total inability due to the carnal mindset.

Your whole line of reasoning is based upon abuse of the text and context.