The Colors of Christian Cults - Rom. 10:2-4

[The Biblicist]

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Every "Christian" Cult perverts the Law of God (SDA, JW's, Mormons, Roman Catholicism, etc.).

They view the Law as did Israel. All that concerned Israel was the keeping of the commandments:

1. "they have a zeal of God"
2. "going about to establish"

Keeping the commandments of God was their theme, motto, and purpose for existence - that was their "zeal." (In direct contrast the "zeal" of true Christianity was "love" for Christ that motivated them to obedience.)

"going about to establish their own righteousness" was the ultimate end of their zeal in law keeping. They not only believed that law keeping was important now for fellowship with God and spirituality but what motivated them chiefly was that they honestly believed that entrance into heaven ULTIMATELY was determined by keeping the commandments of God. This ultimate goal for commandment keeping is the chief characteristic of all apostate Christianity.

The chief characteristic of true Christianity is that "Christ is the end of the Law." True Christianity RESTS upon the Law keeping of Christ to have satisfied completely the ULTIMATE goal of entrance into heaven. Obedience to God's commandments is the FRUIT of that REST born out of love alone. "If ye love me"

Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness. That is, righteousness as demanded by the Law finds total completion in the life and death of Christ. His life totally completed the laws demand for a sinless life. His death totatlly completed the laws demand of condemnation toward sin. Christ is the "end" of the Law as the law has no demands for righteousness beyond what Christ satisfied completely for us. We are "dead" to the Law IN THIS SENSE, that it has no legal jurisdication, no right to demand, no right to condemn, no right to judge anyone who died "in Christ" as the dead body of Christ satisfied all of its condemnation against sin for all who are "in Christ." The law cannot judge again what it has already judged in the person of Christ - Hence, all in Christ are "dead to the Law" in regard to any condemnation. No condemnation no failure to enter heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Every "Christian" Cult perverts the Law of God (SDA, JW's, Mormons, Roman Catholicism, etc.).

I could add that your attempt to "bend the 4th commandment to point it away from the 7th day of the week - and toward week day 1" is a perversion of the Law of God.

Bold and blatant in that case. A practice fully condemned by Christ in Mark 7:6-11.

James 5:11 "the end of the Lord" KJV and Romans 10:4 "the end of the law" KJV - are used the same way.

We have a saying "to what ends, to what purpose?"

It is the purpose of the Law to lead to Christ. And it is the Purpose of Christ to direct us away from rebellion against the Law of God. "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

Just as Christ said in Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" as part of the 10 Commandment moral law itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

I
It is the purpose of the Law to lead to Christ. And it is the Purpose of Christ to direct us away from rebellion against the Law of God. "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

Just as Christ said in Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" as part of the 10 Commandment moral law itself.

in Christ,

Bob

No one is disputing that love for Christ leads to obedience to Christ but what you are teaching has nothing to do with love but with works to obtain salvation.

Your reasoning is circular! You reason we are justified by faith without works in order to be justified by works produced by faith thus making justification by faith without works oxymoronic.

We are justified by faith in Christ's personal complete and final satisfaction of all the Law's demands against us. We are DEAD to the Law forever in the sense of legal culpability. It has no jurisdiction over us to ever judge or condemn us because we are "DEAD" to the Law by the body of Christ and thus we are "in Christ".

Love is the only motivation within us to obey Christ and love for Him and His things is the product of the new birth wherein we are given God's heart to love the things that God loves and hate the things that God hates.

However, our love is not perfect and will always be imperfect until glorification but it is not the perfection or imperfection of our love for God that determines entrance into heaven but the perfection found in Christ's own personal obedience that obtains that FOR US and that is the REST of faith of true Christians.

 

[BobRyan]

No one is disputing that love for Christ leads to obedience to Christ but what you are teaching has nothing to do with love but with works to obtain salvation.

Err... umm... because in your own mind to obey the Word of God instead of man made tradition is to "not love Christ"??

How completely foreign your idea is to John 14:15 and 1John 5:2-3 and Mark 7:6-13.

Surely you can see that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Err... umm... because in your own mind to obey the Word of God instead of man made tradition is to "not love Christ"??

How completely foreign your idea is to John 14:15 and 1John 5:2-3 and Mark 7:6-13.

Surely you can see that.

in Christ,

Bob

Again, your soteriology is based on circular reasoning that is oxymoronic. You responses remind me of Demoncrat strategists on FOX. When they can't deal with the truth they divert, try to confuse, divide or ridicule. Again, you are teaching the oxymoronic doctrine of justification by faith without works in order to be justified by works through faith. Hence, you are repudiating Christ's finished work in regard to the Law and all of its demands. You are simply USING Christ to make man more accountable to the Law's demands rather than RESTING in Christ's satisfation of all the Law's demands against us. Your service is not born out of love but out of necessity to enter heaven. Hence, both your doctrine and motive are anti-christ. Your doctrine is cultic to the core and anti-christ as it is really a complete repudiation of the finished work of Christ and restoration of law keeping for salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
No one is disputing that love for Christ leads to obedience to Christ but what you are teaching has nothing to do with love but with works to obtain salvation.

Err... umm... because in your own mind to obey the Word of God instead of man made tradition is to "not love Christ"??

How completely foreign your idea is to John 14:15 and 1John 5:2-3 and Mark 7:6-13.

Surely you can see that.

Again, your soteriology is based on circular reasoning that is oxymoronic. You responses remind me of Demoncrat strategists on FOX.

Until you switch from 'story telling' to actually read the texts I listed above.


[FONT=&quot]1Cor 7:19 "what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 14:15 “If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ex 20:6 "of those who Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" [/FONT](God's statement made as part of the actual TEN Commandments)[FONT=&quot]

1John 5:2-3 the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and do not call it a "burden".[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Again, you are teaching the oxymoronic doctrine of justification by faith without works in order to be justified by works through faith. Hence, you are repudiating Christ's finished work

Your oxymoronic logic claims to accept the "Baptist Confession of Faith" telling you that it is no contradiction of the Gospel to accept the Ten Commandments as the moral Law of God still binding on mankind - while at the same time you now condemn my affirmation of the texts above by claiming that one should not keep the actual commandment as God Himself spoke it and gave it.

Then your dark-ages resort to "all name calling" as the summary point in your own post - is very "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

You could not ask for a more transparent posting on your part - to reveal the spirit of your opposition to the texts above.

The mere reference to them gives rise to your strong objection.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Until you switch from 'story telling' to actually read the texts I listed above.

Classic cultice use of proof texting.

[FONT=&quot]1Cor 7:19 "what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Matters for what? Entrance into heaven? Obtaining salvation? Fellowship with God? Joyful living? Serving Christ? Matters for what? This is no proof text for you at all.

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God"[/FONT]

This is their description but it says nothing about why they do it? Out of love? Out of fear? To go to heaven, for rewards in heaven? Not all the saved will have the right to live in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24) BUT THEY ARE SAVED NEVERTHLESS. Not all the saved have the same right to the tree of life (Rev. 22:2) but all are equally saved.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 14:15 “If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments”[/FONT]

Here a reason is given! Not to get to heaven, not to be justified, not out of fear,, but out of love. This is the only reason for obedience and none but born again can serve God from that motive although their service has nothing to do with obtaining entrance into heaven - that service was obtained by Christ FOR their entrance into heaven as a FREE GIFT of grace.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ex 20:6 "of those who Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" [/FONT](God's statement made as part of the actual TEN Commandments)[FONT=&quot[/QUOTE]

Love again, not fear, not for salvation, not for entrance into heaven, not fear of going to hell, not for justification.

1John 5:2-3 the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and do not call it a "burden".[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Your selection of texts condemns your oxymoronic doctrine that we are ultimately justified by our own works via justification by faith without works in order to be justified by works. This is an anti-Christ doctrine because it repudiates the whole atonement of Christ, making it subservant to the works of men in the final analysis.

 

[Gup20]

I could add that your attempt to "bend the 4th commandment to point it away from the 7th day of the week - and toward week day 1" is a perversion of the Law of God.

That law has been fulfilled by Christ, not me. The righteousness within me is not my own righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ. My flesh will be corrupted and destroyed so it makes no difference if the law is physically kept because my spirit has been made righteous by Christ and will endure because of God's grace based on my faith and the inheritance of Christ's righteousness promised by God to those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham - those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Abraham had.

By physically trying to keep the law, you are pretending like your flesh has an opportunity for salvation, which it does not, or like sin in your flesh effects the salvation of your spirit, which it does not (at least, not after you have committed a sin in your life).

Furthermore, we, being Gentiles, have never been under an obligation at any time to keep the law. Just as Abraham was a gentile when he was made righteous by faith alone in the gospel of Christ, and just as he never followed the law (it wasn't given until 430 years after), we are the Children of Abraham if we follow in his example and have the same faith in the gospel as he did. As children, then, we inherit the promise of righteousness which is ours through Christ. It is not something we earn, just as a child doesn't earn an inheritance from their parents. But God gave it to Abraham as an everlasting promise.

 

[BobRyan]

Your service is not born out of love but out of necessity to enter heaven. Hence, both your doctrine and motive are anti-christ. Your doctrine is cultic to the core and anti-christ as it is really a complete repudiation of the finished work of Christ and restoration of law keeping for salvation.

Now all that name-calling simply because I am not saying "the Ten Commandments a still applicable to the saints today - and the Sabbath commandment given in Gen 2:3 is still in force - but today it applies to week-day-1 instead of the day that God stated which was the same from Creation to the resurrection".

Your entire name-calling-rant is all over the fact that I refused to add that last bit as if devoted to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

Because I draw the line there - you simply lose it at the end of your prior post.

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

to Biblicist:

I could add that your attempt to "bend the 4th commandment to point it away from the 7th day of the week - and toward week day 1" is a perversion of the Law of God.

That law has been fulfilled by Christ, not me.

Christ fulfilled the Law to Love God with all of your heart and to Love your Neighbor as yourself - and Christ said in Matt 22 - that this still applies to mankind - even though He fulfills perfect obedience to it.

I think every Bible student here would agree.

The righteousness within me is not my own righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ.

Under the Gospel - Christ pays our debt, causes the New Birth, and writes His Law in the mind and heart just as the New Covenant promised Jer 31:31-33.

Under those conditions - His righteousness stands in the place of our own.

My flesh will be corrupted and destroyed so it makes no difference if the law is physically kept because my spirit has been made righteous by Christ and will endure because of God's grace based on my faith and the inheritance of Christ's righteousness promised by God to those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham - those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Abraham had.

By physically trying to keep the law, you are pretending like your flesh has an opportunity for salvation, which it does not, or like sin in your flesh effects the salvation of your spirit, which it does not (at least, not after you have committed a sin in your life).

Furthermore, we, being Gentiles, have never been under an obligation at any time to keep the law.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

1John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Ex 20:6 God's promises to those who "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".

Rom 2:13-16 "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge"


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

Now all that name-calling simply because I am
Bob

I never called you a single name. I called your doctrine anti-christ and I called your tactics cultic.

However, this is just another diversion because you cannot overthrow my exposition on Psalm 118:20-24 in any kind of scholarly method. You are using cultic methods to distract, divert and pit scripture against scripture.

Just take my first three posts one at a time and point out where I made a mistake in my interpretation of the text I am dealing with or the scriptures used to support that specific point. You won't because you cannot overthrow it and you know it. If you could you would have already done so. So all this political diversion, distraction, pitting is simply a flag of surrender.

 

[Gup20]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

1John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Ex 20:6 God's promises to those who "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".

Rom 2:13-16 "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge"


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

None of these passages is related to attaining or keeping salvation. These all have to do with those who are already made righteous by faith. For example, 1Cor 7 is about having a Godly marriage. These passages are talking about the Christian walk, not how to obtain salvation. And none of them say you lose your salvation if you don't follow the law.

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 7:19 is about circumcision vs non-circumcision. It contrasts the moral law "Commandments of God" with the ceremonial law.

I have always said that whether you are talking about the first commandment of the TEN Commandmnets or the Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor" commandment, keeping the Commandments of God is only an option for the already born-again, already saved saints.

The lost cannot "Love God with all their heart" Deut 6:5 that they undo the debt for their sins or cause themselves to be "born again".

In fact Romans 8:5-8 is explicit in saying that the lost person DOES not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Your service is not born out of love but out of necessity to enter heaven. Hence, both your doctrine and motive are anti-christ. Your doctrine is cultic to the core and anti-christ as it is really a complete repudiation of the finished work of Christ and restoration of law keeping for salvation.

Now all that name-calling simply because I am not saying "the Ten Commandments a still applicable to the saints today - and the Sabbath commandment given in Gen 2:3 is still in force - but today it applies to week-day-1 instead of the day that God stated which was the same from Creation to the resurrection".

Your entire name-calling-rant is all over the fact that I refused to add that last bit as if devoted to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

Because I draw the line there - you simply lose it at the end of your prior post.

How "instructive".

I never called you a single name. I called your doctrine anti-christ and I called your tactics cultic.

Indeed. It is not at all clear that your ending that post with the blow-your-stack finish was as objective as you seem to have hoped.

Meanwhile the point in my prior post above - remains.

However, this is just another diversion because you cannot overthrow my exposition on Psalm 118:20-24

you took a text without a single mention of a weekly cycle, or day of the week, nor even Sabbath - and tried to bend-wrench-eisegete it to your purpose - for week-day-1.

The text itself made no such claim and the mere quote of the text you yourself used - disproves your own argument.

What was "left" for me to do after I show that your own Ps 118 text makes no mention of a weekly day of worship ?

Was I supposed to "imagine your case" for you?

Please be serious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Indeed. It is not at all clear that your ending that post with the blow-your-stack finish was as objective as you seem to have hoped.

Read carefully instead of reading into my words what you want there. I never said a word about YOUR PERSON only YOUR DOCTRINE. If you cannot distinguish between the two then that is not my problem but yours.

What was "left" for me to do after I show that your own Ps 118 text makes no mention of a weekly day of worship ?

The very same term that demands the day of the fourth commandment is to be set apart for observation is the very same term used to demand "THIS...DAY" (Psa. 118:24) is to be set apart for observation. So you don't have to make my case for me, as the Word of God makes my case for me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hi Mark.....where do you put Pelaganism & Semi Pelaganism? I see it very shy of Paganism but I'm curious to your perspective. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[The Biblicist]

Hi Mark.....where do you put Pelaganism & Semi Pelaganism? I see it very shy of Paganism but I'm curious to your perspective. :smilewinkgrin:

I see it as a form of humanism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see it as a form of humanism.

Yea, me too. Now do they concur with that analysis? I ask because when I tell a Non Calvinist, they get incensed.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yea, me too. Now do they concur with that analysis? I ask because when I tell a Non Calvinist, they get incensed.

It is clear there is no use debating those on this forum as it is a work of futility. Their minds are hardened against the truth which is manifested by being "incensed" as the reaction.

 

[BobRyan]

The very same term that demands the day of the fourth commandment is to be set apart for observation is the very same term used to demand "THIS...DAY" (Psa. 118:24) is to be set apart for observation. .

Not at all true.

both refer to "yom" day - but the Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:8-11 says that it is "sanctified" and "blessed" AND that it occurs as the 7th day in our 7 day creation week cycle.

No such details can be found in Ps 118.

You make up those details where they are lacking in Ps 118 just fine - but other than that.

in Christ,

Bob