• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Weaker Brother?

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You have yet to prove that exercising Christian liberty in the arena of drinking alcohol is a sin. Once you are able to do that the rest of your post will be a valid debate. Until then you are putting the cart before the horse.
IMO, it has little to do with "an exercise of liberty."
There are many reasons why Christians today should not drink alcohol.
If one is wise they would read some of the links I post instead of me posting what they have to say.

http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/alcohol.htm

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor...ohol/Wine-Drinking in New Testament Times.htm

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowine.html

http://www.johnhamelministries.org/wine_lie_Jesus.htm

http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Feet/a_biblical_perspective_on_the_us.htm
 

Herald

New Member
IMO, it has little to do with "an exercise of liberty."
There are many reasons why Christians today should not drink alcohol.
If one is wise they would read some of the links I post instead of me posting what they have to say.

http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/alcohol.htm

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor...ohol/Wine-Drinking in New Testament Times.htm

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowine.html

http://www.johnhamelministries.org/wine_lie_Jesus.htm

http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Feet/a_biblical_perspective_on_the_us.htm

DHK,

I want the unequivocal, biblical mandate against it. I am not trying to be obtuse. Either the bible prohibits it or it does not. Are we not people of the Book? Is not the Bible the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice? Where is the unequivocal, biblical mandate?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK,

I want the unequivocal, biblical mandate against it. I am not trying to be obtuse. Either the bible prohibits it or it does not. Are we not people of the Book? Is not the Bible the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice? Where is the unequivocal, biblical mandate?
First, if you don't know what wine is (the wine of Biblical times), then you will remain forever ignorant. That is why reading is important. In no way can one drink our alcoholic beverages of today "moderately" and compare that to what they drank "in moderation" back then. It is not the same drink. Find out what they were drinking.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
First, if you don't know what wine is (the wine of Biblical times), then you will remain forever ignorant. That is why reading is important. In no way can one drink our alcoholic beverages of today "moderately" and compare that to what they drank "in moderation" back then. It is not the same drink. Find out what they were drinking.
Here is one of the better explanations that I have found:
When we come to the New Testament the content of the wine is never discussed. The burden of proof, however, is surely upon anyone who would say that the “wine” of the New Testament is substantially different from the wine mentioned by the Greeks, the Jews during the intertestamental period, and the early church fathers. In the writings of the early church fathers it is clear that “wine” means wine mixed with water. Justin Martyr around A.D.150 described the Lord’s Supper in this way: “Bread is brought, and wine and water, and the president sends up prayers and thanksgiving” (Apology 1, 67, 5). Some sixty-five years later Hippolytus instructed the bishops that they shall “eucharistize [bless] first the bread into the representation of the Flesh of Christ; and the cup mixed with wine for the antitype of the Blood which was shed for all who have believed in Him” (Apostolic Tradition XXIII, 1). Cyprian around A.D.250 stated in his refutation of certain heretical practices:
Nothing must be done by us but what the Lord first did on our behalf, as that the cup which is offered in remembrance of Him should be offered mingled with wine. . . .​
Thus, therefore, in considering the cup of the Lord, water alone cannot be offered, even as wine alone cannot be offered. For if anyone offer wine only, the blood of Christ is dissociated from us: but if the water be alone, the people are dissociated from Christ. . . . Thus the cup of the Lord is not indeed water alone, nor wine alone, unless each be mingled with the other [Epistle LXII, 2, 11 and 13].​
Unmixed wine and plain water at the Lord’s Supper were both found unacceptable. A mixture of wine and water was the norm. Earlier in the latter part of the second century Clement of Alexandria stated:
It is best for the wine to be mixed with as much water as possible. . . . For both are works of God, and the mixing of the two, both of water and wine produces health, because life is composed of a necessary element and a useful element. To the necessary element, the water, which is in the greatest quantity, there is to be mixed in some of the useful element [Instructor II, ii, 23.3—24.1].​
To consume the amount of alcohol that is in two martinis by drinking wine containing three parts water to one part wine, one would have to drink over twenty-two glasses. In other words, it is possible to become intoxicated from wine mixed with three parts of water, but one’s drinking would probably affect the bladder long before it affected the mind.
In concluding this brief article I would like to emphasize two points. First, it is important to try to understand the biblical text in the context in which it was written. Before we ask “What does the biblical text mean for us today?” we must ask “What did it mean to them originally?” Second, there is a striking difference between the drinking of alcoholic beverages today and the drinking of wine in New Testament times. If the drinking of unmixed wine or even wine mixed in a ratio of one to one with water was frowned upon in ancient times, certainly the drinking of distilled spirits in which the alcoholic content is frequently three to ten times greater would be frowned upon a great deal more.
Robert H. Stein is associate professor of New Testament at Bethel College, St. Paul, Minnesota. He has the B.D. from Fuller Seminary, S.T.M. from Andover Newton Theological School, and Ph.D. from Princeton Seminary.

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/Bible/Doctrines/Holiness/Drugs%20&%20Alcohol/Wine-Drinking%20in%20New%20Testament%20Times.htm
Now take into consideration that many sources (including MacArthur) believe that the ratio was eight to one--a rather impossible mixture to get drunk on. This author believes it was only 3:1.




 

Herald

New Member
First, if you don't know what wine is (the wine of Biblical times), then you will remain forever ignorant. That is why reading is important. In no way can one drink our alcoholic beverages of today "moderately" and compare that to what they drank "in moderation" back then. It is not the same drink. Find out what they were drinking.

First, godly men on both sides of the debate disagree on this point. It is not an unequivocal, biblical mandate. If you remember, in one of the previous threads on drinking, I shared with you part of an article by a recognized scholar who takes the opposite view. So, where does that leave us? It leaves us without a clear biblical mandate that says, "Thou shalt not drink alcohol." You can post all the articles you want. You can insinuate I am ignorant all you want. At the end of the day you cannot say, "Thus sayeth the Lord!" It is a matter of Christian liberty whether you want to admit it or not, and you have you the liberty not to imbibe.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK,

I want the unequivocal, biblical mandate against it. I am not trying to be obtuse. Either the bible prohibits it or it does not. Are we not people of the Book? Is not the Bible the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice? Where is the unequivocal, biblical mandate?

The game is similar to dodge ball.:BangHead:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top