Freewill or Election? Or both?

[JonC]

Paul does not teach we are compelled to sin by our sin nature whatsoever, he teaches the exact opposite, that we have option and choice.

I also don’t think that men are compelled to sin. Instead, we have the choice to do what is right or do what is wrong. While we have the choice - apart from God’s grace I believe that we will make a choice that “misses the mark.” It’s not whether or not man could come to God on his own, but whether or not man will come to God on his own – here I think that he will not.


I think that you could easily argue that many of the Jews were seeking God by obedience to the Law. Their seeking, however, was self-righteous. Most religions “seek God,” but they don’t actually turn to the true God. The focus instead is centered on the self. For the same reason I don’t believe that one becomes a true Christian simply by seeking God with the motive of avoiding Hell.


Yes, we are not “compelled” to sin by our sin nature (nature is descriptive – I think it inappropriate to believe that it compels us to do anything) – we have option and choice (and they are legitimate options and choices). The plans of the heart belong to man – they are ours. But I also believe that the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

 

[Yeshua1]

The prodigal son was dead in sin, he was lost, his father said so. But he was able to "come to himself" and determine in himself to return to his father and ask for forgiveness.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Again, the prodigal son was dead in sin, he was lost, yet he was able to come to himself and return to his father asking forgiveness. This absolutely refutes Total Inability.

There is not one word to indicate the prodigal son had to be supernaturally regenerated in order to repent and ask for forgiveness in this parable.

he was already saved in the story! Entire point of jesus here was that the heavenly father desires to have fellowship with His own children, and that even ifone of His go off "into the world", they will repent and come back to comnfess to him, and God freely restores them!

Shows us the love and Grace of God towards His own!

 

[Yeshua1]

I also don’t think that men are compelled to sin. Instead, we have the choice to do what is right or do what is wrong. While we have the choice - apart from God’s grace I believe that we will make a choice that “misses the mark.” It’s not whether or not man could come to God on his own, but whether or not man will come to God on his own – here I think that he will not.


I think that you could easily argue that many of the Jews were seeking God by obedience to the Law. Their seeking, however, was self-righteous. Most religions “seek God,” but they don’t actually turn to the true God. The focus instead is centered on the self. For the same reason I don’t believe that one becomes a true Christian simply by seeking God with the motive of avoiding Hell.


Yes, we are not “compelled” to sin by our sin nature (nature is descriptive – I think it inappropriate to believe that it compels us to do anything) – we have option and choice (and they are legitimate options and choices). The plans of the heart belong to man – they are ours. But I also believe that the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

Apostle paul stated that even he had dwelling in himthe sin principle, the flesh, sinful nature, that always wants us to disobeyGod and go our own way, to have our will fulfilled!

Without the Holy Spirit enabling us to resist and not sin, we would obey the dictates of the flesh!

Some can "handle that" better than others, but all submit some degree to that!

 

[Winman]

he was already saved in the story! Entire point of jesus here was that the heavenly father desires to have fellowship with His own children, and that even ifone of His go off "into the world", they will repent and come back to comnfess to him, and God freely restores them!

Shows us the love and Grace of God towards His own!

He was not born dead in sin if that is what you mean. But this story is not about a backsliden Christian, Christians are never said to be "dead" or "lost". It was only after he willingly and knowingly left home and decided to live a life of sin that he "joined himself to a citizen of that country" which I believe represents Satan. This is when a person becomes a child of wrath, or a child of the devil.

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

This is when the prodigal son "died in sin" and became separated by sin from his father.

Nevertheless, scripture shows he was able to "come to himself" and decide to repent and return to his father asking forgiveness, absolutely refuting the false doctrine of Total Inability. And when he did return to his father, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Words have meaning, and Jesus knows right doctrine. If Jesus said the boy was alive "again", then the boy was alive once, just as Paul said he was alive without the law once in Romans 7. Jesus doesn't make mistakes with words, nor does he attempt to redefine them as many do.

You can believe Augustine and Calvin if you wish, I will believe Jesus. The scriptures do not teach that men are born dead in sin, they teach the exact opposite.

 

[JonC]

Apostle paul stated that even he had dwelling in himthe sin principle, the flesh, sinful nature, that always wants us to disobeyGod and go our own way, to have our will fulfilled!
Without the Holy Spirit enabling us to resist and not sin, we would obey the dictates of the flesh!
Some can "handle that" better than others, but all submit some degree to that!

I agree. The “sin nature” is not something that controls natural man, but instead is descriptive of natural man. We do not “will” what is righteous. That does not mean, however, that we do not make our own choices (or that they are not legitimate choices) – we do not have to be compelled to sin and in everything we do (apart from God’s grace) we fall short of the glory of God. That doesn’t mean that we are as bad as we could be – only that we never achieve the standard of “good.”

he was already saved in the story! Entire point of jesus here was that the heavenly father desires to have fellowship with His own children, and that even ifone of His go off "into the world", they will repent and come back to comnfess to him, and God freely restores them!

Winman does make a good point, which I think you didn’t address. You state that the son was already saved and the point of the parable is that God desires fellowship with His children. Winman points out that the son was dead and lost before he returned to his father. Are you saying that you can be “saved” but also “dead and lost”?

 

[Winman]

I also don’t think that men are compelled to sin. Instead, we have the choice to do what is right or do what is wrong. While we have the choice - apart from God’s grace I believe that we will make a choice that “misses the mark.” It’s not whether or not man could come to God on his own, but whether or not man will come to God on his own – here I think that he will not.

I agree, Jesus said that no man comes to him unless the Father draws him, and Jesus said if he be lifted up he will draw all men to him. It is the grace of God that convicts and shows man that he is lost in sin, and it is the word of God that tells a man of God's love and how he gave his Son to die for our sins. It is this conviction and knowledge that draws men to Christ.

I think that you could easily argue that many of the Jews were seeking God by obedience to the Law. Their seeking, however, was self-righteous. Most religions “seek God,” but they don’t actually turn to the true God. The focus instead is centered on the self. For the same reason I don’t believe that one becomes a true Christian simply by seeking God with the motive of avoiding Hell.

I agree again, men will naturally attempt to justify themselves through good works. It is the word of God that tells us Jesus died for us and that we must trust him to be forgiven our sins and saved.

Yes, we are not “compelled” to sin by our sin nature (nature is descriptive – I think it inappropriate to believe that it compels us to do anything) – we have option and choice (and they are legitimate options and choices). The plans of the heart belong to man – they are ours. But I also believe that the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

I agree with you that no man is compelled, but many here believe men ARE compelled to sin.

I do not believe a man has to be supernaturally regenerated to come to and believe in Christ. What men lack is knowledge, not the ability to believe. All men believe in something, most men believe in their own good deeds and righteousness, or a false God. It is the word of God that tells us of the true God and how that Jesus died for our sins. This knowledge enables any man to trust Christ if he so chooses to do so.

But no man is regenerated until AFTER he chooses to believe on Jesus. Until you believe in Jesus you are already condemned and will die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Some Reformed scholars like R.C. Sproul teach a man can be regenerated for years, even decades before they believe on Jesus. This is absurd, this would be a person who is spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment. Utter nonsense.

 

[Winman]

I agree. The “sin nature” is not something that controls natural man, but instead is descriptive of natural man. We do not “will” what is righteous. That does not mean, however, that we do not make our own choices (or that they are not legitimate choices) – we do not have to be compelled to sin and in everything we do (apart from God’s grace) we fall short of the glory of God. That doesn’t mean that we are as bad as we could be – only that we never achieve the standard of “good.”

If we were "enslaved" to our sin nature as many claim, you would ALWAYS be the very worst you could be. If you have self control and can prevent yourself from being as bad as you can be, then you are not enslaved to your nature.

Winman does make a good point, which I think you didn’t address. You state that the son was already saved and the point of the parable is that God desires fellowship with His children. Winman points out that the son was dead and lost before he returned to his father. Are you saying that you can be “saved” but also “dead and lost”?

The prodigal was not born dead in sin. All three parables show a sinner who was not originally lost.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Was the sheep originally lost? NOPE.

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Was the silver piece originally lost? NOPE.

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Was the prodigal son originally lost? NOPE.

Jesus must have forgotten the doctrine of Original Sin. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

I have a question.

How is it that Jesus Christ is called "my elect" by God and at the same time Jesus freely chose to lay down His life? Did Jesus by His own freewill choose to lay down His life or was He elected to lay down His life by the will of God?

God knew every word and act of Christ before Christ ever did anything.

So did Christ have "free will"?

Does God know everything He will do in the future?

If so - does God have free will?

It is one thing to argue that you think you have free will but you don't really have it because someone else knows what you will do... it is quite another to say that you know all that you will do in the future - but you still have free will.

In other words - if the attribute of foreknowledge is supposed to cancel out free will - then God above-all-others does not have free will. Clearly the idea that foreknowledge cancels free will - is false.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

God knew every word and act of Christ before Christ ever did anything.

So did Christ have "free will"?

Does God know everything He will do in the future?

If so - does God have free will?

It is one thing to argue that you think you have free will but you don't really have it because someone else knows what you will do... it is quite another to say that you know all that you will do in the future - but you still have free will.

In other words - if the attribute of foreknowledge is supposed to cancel out free will - then God above-all-others does not have free will. Clearly the idea that foreknowledge cancels free will - is false.

in Christ,

Bob

And if God can only foreknow what he has determined to do, how miraculous is that?

I can tell you I will have a tuna sandwich for lunch tomorrow and then make sure that is what I pack for lunch. Whoop de do! Big deal. Even men can tell you ahead of time what they plan to do, nothing miraculous about that at all.

But if I could tell everybody what YOU will have for lunch tomorrow, that is something special.

 

[JonC]

I agree, Jesus said that no man comes to him unless the Father draws him, and Jesus said if he be lifted up he will draw all men to him. It is the grace of God that convicts and shows man that he is lost in sin, and it is the word of God that tells a man of God's love and how he gave his Son to die for our sins. It is this conviction and knowledge that draws men to Christ.

I agree again, men will naturally attempt to justify themselves through good works. It is the word of God that tells us Jesus died for us and that we must trust him to be forgiven our sins and saved.

I agree with you that no man is compelled, but many here believe men ARE compelled to sin.

I do not believe a man has to be supernaturally regenerated to come to and believe in Christ. What men lack is knowledge, not the ability to believe. All men believe in something, most men believe in their own good deeds and righteousness, or a false God. It is the word of God that tells us of the true God and how that Jesus died for our sins. This knowledge enables any man to trust Christ if he so chooses to do so.

But no man is regenerated until AFTER he chooses to believe on Jesus. Until you believe in Jesus you are already condemned and will die in your sins.

Winman,



I agree with you here except the comment that knowledge enables man to trust Christ if he so chooses – I think that it is an act of God which enables man to believe and not cognitively based. I also agree that man is not regenerated prior to being saved (I think some Calvinists view “regeneration” too lightly here by supposing so). But I do believe that God specifically calls those He elected and works within the will of the elect (so we’d certainly disagree here).

 

[JonC]

[FONT=&quot]

If we were "enslaved" to our sin nature as many claim, you would ALWAYS be the very worst you could be. If you have self control and can prevent yourself from being as bad as you can be, then you are not enslaved to your nature.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are not “enslaved” to our nature – that doesn’t even make sense. A bob cat is not “enslaved” to his aggressive nature - his aggressive nature is descriptive of the bob cat. We are born a slave to sin. We are not freed from our nature, but regenerated – reborn. We are freed from the bondage of sin. We'd disagree in that I believe our nature prevents us from genuinely seeking righteousness. [/FONT]

 

[Winman]

Winman,

I agree with you here except the comment that knowledge enables man to trust Christ if he so chooses – I think that it is an act of God which enables man to believe and not cognitively based. I also agree that man is not regenerated prior to being saved (I think some Calvinists view “regeneration” too lightly here by supposing so). But I do believe that God specifically calls those He elected and works within the will of the elect (so we’d certainly disagree here).

Well, I believe God calls ALL men.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

There were many thousands of Jews from many countries present at Pentacost. Now, I don't believe every single person present was saved, but Peter said the promise applied to YOU, meaning every man, and their children, and to ALL that are afar off, even as many as the Lord shall call.

So, not every person present was saved, but every man present was called.

We see the same in the parable of the wedding feast;

Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The first thing we see is that not everyone who is called comes.

We see that God is patient, and calls persons more than once.

When those (the Jews) who were called did not come, who then did God call and invite? Everyone. No one was excluded, every single person that could be found was called and invited to the wedding.

However, though a man was called and invited, he had to come prepared, he had to be wearing a wedding garment. This garment is the robe of righteousness imputed to those who place their faith in Christ. A robe or clothing has always stood for imputed righteousness, going back to the garden when God made coats for Adam and Eve because their own works (fig leaves) were not sufficient to cover their nakedness. We also see this robe of righteousness in the story of the prodigal son.

Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

The elect or chosen are those who come when they are called, but also those who come in faith. Those who try to climb in some other way than through the door (Jesus) will be cast out.

Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

The sheep are those who hear and listen to the true word of God, they will not listen to falsehood.

 

[Winman]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are not “enslaved” to our nature – that doesn’t even make sense. A bob cat is not “enslaved” to his aggressive nature - his aggressive nature is descriptive of the bob cat. We are born a slave to sin. We are not freed from our nature, but regenerated – reborn. We are freed from the bondage of sin. We'd disagree in that I believe our nature prevents us from genuinely seeking righteousness. [/FONT]

I do not believe we are born with an evil nature, but I believe we develop an evil or sinful nature.

Scripture shows Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham, not Adam as many falsely teach.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Scripture says Jesus took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham (not Adam) and that he was made like unto his brethren (the Jews) in ALL THINGS. The scriptures say God cannot be tempted, but Jesus suffered being tempted, and was tempted in ALL POINTS like as we are yet without sin.

If man has a sinful nature, then Jesus would have also had a sinful nature, because he took on the nature of man. I refuse to believe Jesus had a sinful nature, as the scriptures called him "holy".

I believe man is made upright, but goes out in sin and develops a sinful nature.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Men are originally made upright, but men seek out many inventions. Men lust after what is forbidden and develop an evil nature.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Many persons use Jer 13:23 to teach that we are born with a sin nature. If so, then man would have the perfect excuse for sin, and God would be to blame. After all, who gave the leopard his spots and the Ethiopian his dark skin?

No, Jeremiah was saying that these Jews were so sinful and obstinate to continue in sin that it had become their nature. They were "accustomed" to do sin. The word "accustomed" means a learned behavior.

It is like smoking, the first time a person tries it they cough and sputter, it is not natural for men to smoke. But with continued use men become accustomed to smoking and eventually addicted to it.

The same with drinking, most people have a difficult time drinking the first time they try it, but with continual use become accustomed to it, and finally addicted if they continue to use it often.

So, "nature" in the scriptures means learned behavior, or even cultural behavior.

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Is this verse teaching that Jews are not born with a sin nature, but everyone else is? No, but by culture the Jews followed God's laws and were not generally sinners, while the Gentiles behaved in all sorts of horrible ways, religious orgies and feasts for example.

Actually scripture says the Gentiles by "nature" do those things contained in the law and show the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

This scripture refutes Total Depravity as it shows men by nature know what is right from wrong and often do what is right. The conscience is defined as that part of man that knows between right and wrong and wills to do that which is right.

So, scriptures do not show that man is born with a sin nature, although man certainly becomes "accustomed" to sin.

 

[JonC]

Well, I believe God calls ALL men.
The sheep are those who hear and listen to the true word of God, they will not listen to falsehood.

I agree 100%. God does call all men, and everyone is commanded to believe. This is one area where I'd get in trouble with some Calvinists. Everyone COULD be saved if they would believe. But they won't. The elect are the sheep who hear and listen to the true word of God. The difference between you and I is that you consider this to be man accepting or rejecting the word of God based on knowledge of the gospel where I believe that all reject God and it is a work of grace by which the elect believe.

You cannot disprove my understanding based on scripture alone, and I doubt that I could disprove yours. When we get to heaven, if I am proven wrong feel free to look me up and you can remind me that I was wrong - won't bother me a bit. I'm not too hung up on this issue. It has caused more division than is warranted.

 

[Winman]

I agree 100%. God does call all men, and everyone is commanded to believe. This is one area where I'd get in trouble with some Calvinists. Everyone COULD be saved if they would believe. But they won't. The elect are the sheep who hear and listen to the true word of God. The difference between you and I is that you consider this to be man accepting or rejecting the word of God based on knowledge of the gospel where I believe that all reject God and it is a work of grace by which the elect believe.

You cannot disprove my understanding based on scripture alone, and I doubt that I could disprove yours. When we get to heaven, if I am proven wrong feel free to look me up and you can remind me that I was wrong - won't bother me a bit. I'm not too hung up on this issue. It has caused more division than is warranted.

We are very close.

That those who are saved based on understanding has great support in scripture.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Calvinists love Jhn 6:44 that says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but they omit verse 45 which shows exactly how men are drawn. Jesus shows that every man who has "heard" and "learned" from the Father comes to him. They come because they are willing to be "taught".

There is MUCH other scripture that shows men are taught by the word of God and this is what draws them to Jesus.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God calls to men, but men are fools who hate knowledge. They will not listen to God, they will not learn from him, they do not CHOOSE to fear the LORD.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

I believe all men could listen if they choose to. Jesus warned his disciples to take heed what they hear, and to those that hear more shall be given, but to those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away.

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

I do not agree with Calvinists that God commands men to do things they are unable to do. It would be unjust to expect men to do what is impossible for them to do, and God is not unjust.

No, Jesus told his disciples to take heed what they hear because this is within men's ability, and therefore men can justly be held accountable for what they hear and learn.

 

[JonC]

We are very close.

That those who are saved based on understanding has great support in scripture.


I do not agree with Calvinists that God commands men to do things they are unable to do. It would be unjust to expect men to do what is impossible for them to do, and God is not unjust.

No, Jesus told his disciples to take heed what they hear because this is within men's ability, and therefore men can justly be held accountable for what they hear and learn.

I certainly believe that men must understand the gospel in order to be saved. Preaching and evangelism is essential to reaching the lost (there is a cognitive aspect).

I also disagree with those who say that God commands the lost to believe, yet they are unable to believe (this is a misunderstanding, IMHO, of the human condition). I think that everyone is able to believe the gospel, but they are unwilling. They can, but won’t. God would not be unjust in condemning every man – to include the elect. In fact, the elect deserve condemnation just as much as the non-elect.

It is within man’s ability to believe, hence the condemnation and accountability for disbelief.

 

[Winman]

I certainly believe that men must understand the gospel in order to be saved. Preaching and evangelism is essential to reaching the lost (there is a cognitive aspect).

I also disagree with those who say that God commands the lost to believe, yet they are unable to believe (this is a misunderstanding, IMHO, of the human condition). I think that everyone is able to believe the gospel, but they are unwilling. They can, but won’t. God would not be unjust in condemning every man – to include the elect. In fact, the elect deserve condemnation just as much as the non-elect.

It is within man’s ability to believe, hence the condemnation and accountability for disbelief.

Yes, and it is not knowledge alone, there is the moral aspect, scripture says the Holy Spirit reproves or convicts men of sin.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would reprove the world (the lost) of sin. This shows ability, not inability as Calvinism teaches.

The word of God has the ability to prick or pierce the heart of man.

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men were not saved, they were trying to accuse Jesus of sin, yet when they heard the words of Jesus they were convicted by their own conscience.

This again refutes Total Depravity and shows the non elect can be convicted, and that they also have a conscience. Conscience by definition means to know right from wrong and have an inward desire to do what is right.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

The word of God has the ability to prick the heart, to convict the conscience. But how a man reacts is up to them. Those men in Acts 2 repented when they heard the word of God and were saved, over 3000 men in one day.

But those in Acts 7 rebelled and became more obstinate at the preaching of Stephen. They dragged him out of the city and stoned him. One of those present was Saul, who would become Paul.

Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

So, it is not knowledge only, there must be conviction for sin as well, this is a work of the Holy Spirit through the word of God. Nevertheless, men have the ability to resist the word of God and the Holy Spirit, they are not compelled forcibly to believe as many falsely teach.

 

[JonC]

Yes, Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (2 Cor 7:10)

 

[steaver]

Nice dialogue Winman and JonC :thumbsup:

This is how every DEBATE should look on the BB with NO personal insults.

You are both making some good points :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Yes, Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (2 Cor 7:10)

I was just thinking about this very scripture the other day, and I believe it argues for eternal security.

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

I believe this verse is distinguishing between real and superficial repentance. Real repentance will work a change in the heart and an attitude toward sin and God. If a man truly repents, he will come to hate sin and love the ways of God to an extent that he will never repent of this new attitude toward God.

We often say we are sorry, and then go right back and do the same thing again. This is not real repentance. When you are truly sorry, you will do your best never to repeat that sin again.

This verse would answer those who argue that if men have free will, then they could decide later not to believe in Christ. I believe this verse refutes that false idea. Or, it is saying that if you truly repent, you will not revert back again.

Just my 2 cents.