Unconditional election and the decree of God

I actually agree with this, but it is a strawman. This is not what non-Cals and Arminians believe.

What God has decreed is that all who believe in Jesus will be saved. He does not decree who will believe.

But... God in his foreknowledge knows exactly who will believe and who will not. That God knows a man will believe does not determine that man will believe. Nevertheless, God's foreknowledge is perfect, and those whom God knew would believe will believe in time without fail.

This does not mean a man's fate is fixed. If that same man chooses not to believe in time, then God in his perfect foreknowledge always knew that man would not be a believer.

This is not that difficult to understand. I cannot help but believe Calvinists purposely misrepresent what non-Cals and Arminians actually believe.

The problem is that Calvinists cannot conceive that foreknowledge does not equal determinism.

 

It is a shame to look at unconditional election to come just as you are without taking the truth of these scripture, but of course it is easier to explain them away that is why many Calvinist that i don't agree with, but not Spurgeon minded Calvinist.

"This breadth of heart was revealed on another occasion when in his prayer at a Thursday evening service he dared to go far beyond his creed, and in his passion for the souls of men cried, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more."

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

I refuse to explain them away like many of my brothers have done. I do believe what Calvinist teach until God places life and death before man then i don't agree with Calvinist who will explain away the desire of God. That this is not universalism that i am teaching because if they don't turn to Jesus the knowledge of the truth unconditionally just the way they are dead in sin repent and live they will spend eternity without the one they rejected because it isn't God that has rejected them He wants them to repent and live and He has chosen us to be His messengers of this.

Jeremiah 23:
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

1 Samuel 8:7
And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.

 

So, God's choice is free, but not free enough to base his choice on a condition outside himself?

Electing is choosing. Describe how God makes a choice in your worldview. Doesn't God foreknow what he would choose prior to choosing? If so, how does he ever choose it? What about thoughts of God? If He knows a thought before thinking it, how does he ever originate a thought? Do you think creation, and you in particular, are eternally existent aspects of God's very nature that He had to necessarily create? And if God never 'acquires knowledge,' then how did he ever come to create for the act of creation had to be a new experience for God at some point, didn't it?

Sin comes forth from God? Evil, molestation, rape, murder, hatred, malice, lust, envy, greed, pride...all come forth from our holy and sinless God?

Please expound.

 

What you are suggesting is oxymoronic! The essence of God's absolute freedom of will in Himself is that nothing outside Himself can place conditions upon him. If outside conditions can be placed upon Him then He does not have absolute freedom but is subject to things outside of himself.

No! Because God's nature is not subject to time and thus not subject to chronological order. We may address his thoughts in regard to logical cause and effects or logical order but not chronological order. His thoughts are eternal and immutable. That is one aspect of many aspects about God that make him God and beyond the comprehensive level of finite people.

You are confusing God's nature with objects of God's thoughts. Both are eternal but God transcends what he creates even though what he creates has NEVER been a new thought.

You are confusing an ACT of God with the THOUGHTS of God. The ACTS of God are determined by the THOUGHTS of God in keeping with the determination by God when that act would be initiated. Time is a measurement and begins (Jn. 1:1-3) whenever God purposed to put thought into action. Action never limits His thoughts but only manifests them according to His purpose. Hence, God not only chose the persons in eternity but the active means for their salvation as well. Don't confuse the persons with the active means or confuse the purposes of God with the implementation of those purpose.

Do you understand primary and secondary causes? God decreed to create free will in some creatures (man, angels) for ultimate good purpose and yet that GOOD purpose necessarily gave permission for the existence of contrary choice to God's revealed will (sin). God created both free will joined with responsible agents for the use of contrary choice. However, none of this caught God by surprise as He ordained to overrule permitted evil for ultimate good and for His glory (Psa. 76:10).

 

Thanks Biblicist.....I dont have the patience to go over well worn topics that have been discussed time & again, Ad nauseam.

 

PLUM FORGOT!!!!????!!!! ..... Oh man..... next you will be saying Yall while eating grits.

 

That's right. Bob, please stop moving the threads until this forum has a listing on the main page like the rest. There is really no reason to do this in my opinion.

 

That statement is unsubstantiated.

Unless He so chooses. If God chose to design a world where men have freedom...a world where he doesn't originate sin...a world where he justly holds men responsible because they actually have the ability to respond...then He might choose to allow himself to respond to conditions outside himself. To close off even the possibility of that design is shortsighted at best.

Great answer. We actually agree on this point. I could point you to posts I wrote years ago that say almost the same thing, but I was addressing the question to Herald based on his conclusions for a reason...

You are confusing my questions directed to Herald based on his statements, with my actual views on the matter, which you clearly don't know. The rest of your answer are part and parcel of the same, so I'll leave it at that...

 

I am this.....but I don't eat grits.... :laugh:

 

Don't you mean, "Folks just plumb forget"? :laugh:


On a serious note, I am listening to a lined version of "When I Survey the Wonderous Cross", from Petercreek PBC, Mates Creek Association...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNjhmTzjlYE