The local church

[DHK]

Im sorry, but my wife & I are serious about our beliefs & we wish to remain pure to our interpretation of scripture. That sir would preclude us from any Non Cal, Arminian or Lutheran church......much the same as if we were attending a Roman Catholic Service.....we dont mix.

I am a Baptist and therefore would not join any Lutheran or Presbyterian or other denominational type of church.
In our area we have IFB churches that are both Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic. Whatever direction I lean, I would choose one of those. There are other associations that have other Baptist churches in them. Frankly they are too liberal for me. Some of them may preach the gospel, but they don't preach the whole counsel of God's Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

EWF,

Quote:
That being said.....If i were out of work...I might not be so picky as to jobs.I would take one and get involved,until a better situation presented itself.
Oh so now we have moved from church to work status. Really, that is none of your business.

I was not talking about jobs...i was using the job as an illustration...you do a job, then look for a better one....you find a small church , work in it, until a better one is available

That being said.....If i were out of work...I might not be so picky as to jobs.I would take one and get involved,until a better situation presented itself.
If there are churches that are struggling....maybe even weak...but not apostate...maybe you could work in and offer help..prayer ,and whatever else.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,



I was not talking about jobs...i was using the job as an illustration...you do a job, then look for a better one....you find a small church , work in it, until a better one is available

All right, then rather than "Church Hop/ similar to Job Hop" why not rather Build something from the Ground Up---Something that will last (kinda an American consept of industrial Excellence). Applied to church.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer but as it says in Phil 4:1a; I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

See I deeply deeply want to see this area come to Christ, just as I did my mother when she was on her deathbed dieing of cancer. My uncle is going through the same thing & it pains me to see it happen & have him so tied to the RCC.

When mom was passing away, she told me that the pedophile priest incidences in New Jersey & elsewhere had greatly affected her view of the RCC, so much so that she rejected them. And when I asked her beliefs I was surprised to hear that she put her Faith in Jesus Christ as her Savior......no body else, not Mary, not the Saints.....just in Jesus.

Well I would really love to see this whole community start recognizing Christ as savior. I walk the streets with my trusty dog Kip & we say hello, how are you.....hows God working in your life today?

If the churches here were doing that, you'd see change......but all I see is SIN. Drug transactions, divorce, infidelity, alcoholism, poverty, foreclosures etc. My town that I grew up in, went to school in & raised my son in desperately needs Christ. And Tony, Ive sat with pastors & told them that...point blank, offered to help & was told they would call......I'm still waiting....2 years & I'm still waiting. Guess what, like a schmo I go back & offer again less than 3 months & again we will call you....still waiting.

 

[saturneptune]

I am a Baptist and therefore would not join any Lutheran or Presbyterian or other denominational type of church.
In our area we have IFB churches that are both Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic. Whatever direction I lean, I would choose one of those. There are other associations that have other Baptist churches in them. Frankly they are too liberal for me. Some of them may preach the gospel, but they don't preach the whole counsel of God's Word.

Well, that is logical. If you are a Baptist you will not join a Lutheran or Presbyterian Church. That is deep.

Back to the op. The three church models:

Catholic, universal, visible church
Protestant, universal, invisible church
Baptist, local, visible church

That in itself defines why we emphasize the local church. Most of the churches addressed in Paul's letters are local. God's work on this earth is carried out by the local church.

It is not so much that the universal church does not exist, but it exists in the spiritual realm. It has no function here on earth. As Tom said, the universal church never sent out a missionary, went on a visitation, held a baptism, served the Lord's Supper, conducted a worship service, helped the poor etc, etc.

I would challenge anyone to name one thing the universal church has ever done.

Of course, the roll of true believers which is the "universal church" transcends church rolls and denominations. Yes there are saved Catholics, and there are a ton of unsaved Baptists. Sixty percent of most rolls has not shown up in years to a service.

 

[Tom Butler]

.

Congrats...you are the first to bring up a universal church. That must really be a fixation for you Tom since you mention it soooo much. Why is that?[

Well, I wouldn't describe it as a fixation. Or even an obsession. Let's say it's a hot-button issue.

I checked my posts and my last mention of this subject was mid-June. If I'm fixated on it, I need to get busy and post on it more than every three months.

Actually, I have to admit that I get some perverse pleasure in rattling the cages of the u-church folks, because their normal reaction is to go ballistic when their precious universal church is challenged.

Seriously, I do look forward to that day when all believers will be gathered into that great big local congregation. And we'll have one fine choir and orchestra, too.

 

[Salty]

Well, that is logical. If you are a Baptist you will not join a Lutheran or Presbyterian Church. That is deep..

But that is a problem - many Baptists do join other denomination churches for whatever erason.

I would challenge anyone to name one thing the universal church has eve.r done

First what is the universal church - I consider it to be all Christians. and over the years, I have the opportunity work with many Christians - even if they arent baptists. I have worked in the militry chapel, I work with our community association of churches, ect - that is the "universal church" and I have seen great strides made for the Lord.

 

[psalms109:31]

The church has God and people. You can look at the greatest commandments and know God takes in account people.

We are first and foremost love God and that is to put over the next commandment without dismissing it. To love yourself and then love others as yourself.

In a church people should be able to use their God given talents to worship God as long as it does not disrupt others in worshiping God.

1 Corinthians 14

If you think the church is doing what they are not suppose to then you should go to it so at least there is one person there that knows how it should be done, without bringing discord.

If we go to church we should be doing it for God not grudgingly but from the heart.

 

[HankD]

I never did like the phrases "universal" or "visible" or "invisible" applied to the church because they are not biblical adjectives used with "ecclesia" in the word of God.

However neither is the word "local" applied to the word "ecclesia" in the Bible either.

Most often an earthly address of some kind is applied (e.g. Ephesus):

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:​

But sometimes not:
Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past inthe Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:​

Also the phrase "the churches of God" is used:​

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:​

The word of God does not make the qualification "as the institution" when the phrase "the church of God" (as above in Galatians 1:13).​

The point:

My practice therefore is to use any of the biblical terms emboldened above freely without explanation since the scripture offers none.​

Exception "local" used as an adjective.​

HankD​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you think the church is doing what they are not suppose to then you should go to it so at least there is one person there that knows how it should be done, without bringing discord.

Do you have scripture to back that up?

If we go to church we should be doing it for God not grudgingly but from the heart.

If the church is anemic at best, you can worship at home and provide more spiritual enrichment to both yourself & your family. The "Dead & Dying" churches have no spiritual value & are a gross waste of time. They provide NO fruit.

In time, the Holy Spirit will provide you with an answer if you are faithful to Him. And I might add that it is an agonizing time because this is NOT where I want to be.

 

[psalms109:31]

Do you have scripture to back that up?

This just went along with what my pastor once said if you don't go to church because you believe there is a bunch of hypocrite go so there will be at least one that isn't one. I thought it was funny I guess not everyone will get the humor of it.

 

[ktn4eg]

I'm sure that a person will find hypocrites in every aspect of human endeavors.
EX: 1) I can't attend a sporting event...too many hypocrites in the bleachers! (Not to mention the fact that they're always wanting my money to get in, buy concessions, etc.!! :smilewinkgrin
2) I can't go into business....too many hypocrites using unethical methods just to upstage each other!
3) I can even use the corner store...the items are overpriced & most of them are in containers that are (at best) only half full anyway!
4) I can't even breathe the air & drink the water because who knows what's REALLY in them!
5) I can't use any mode of transportation because the vehicles are of questionable quality, the other drivers don't know how to drive, the roads are built by contractors who "have connections" & they're always in need of repair!

Nope....Yours truly ain't a-gonna deal with ANY of dem thar hypocrites!!! Might get tarnished & my halo :saint: sure as shootin' is a-gonna get WAY too messy!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm sure that a person will find hypocrites in every aspect of human endeavors.
EX: 1) I can't attend a sporting event...too many hypocrites in the bleachers! (Not to mention the fact that they're always wanting my money to get in, buy concessions, etc.!! :smilewinkgrin
2) I can't go into business....too many hypocrites using unethical methods just to upstage each other!
3) I can even use the corner store...the items are overpriced & most of them are in containers that are (at best) only half full anyway!
4) I can't even breathe the air & drink the water because who knows what's REALLY in them!
5) I can't use any mode of transportation because the vehicles are of questionable quality, the other drivers don't know how to drive, the roads are built by contractors who "have connections" & they're always in need of repair!

Nope....Yours truly ain't a-gonna deal with ANY of dem thar hypocrites!!! Might get tarnished & my halo :saint: sure as shootin' is a-gonna get WAY too messy!!

Heck, we are all hypocrites. Knew that when I was in nappies:laugh:

Actually your right, the church is full of..er, them. And I'd venture to say, that without it there wouldn't be a church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This just went along with what my pastor once said if you don't go to church because you believe there is a bunch of hypocrite go so there will be at least one that isn't one. I thought it was funny I guess not everyone will get the humor of it.

huhhhh ya blind sided me, Church Goers with a sense of humor...... now thats funny! : Didnt see that coming!

 

[OnlyaSinner]

This just went along with what my pastor once said if you don't go to church because you believe there is a bunch of hypocrite go so there will be at least one that isn't one. I thought it was funny I guess not everyone will get the humor of it.

My former pastor, who is now in Glory, would say about those who "won't go to church because of all the hypocrites there", that there are more hypocrites outside of church than inside. His proof: There are more people staying out of church than attending. (Or what EWF said...)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My former pastor, who is now in Glory, would say about those who "won't go to church because of all the hypocrites there", that there are more hypocrites outside of church than inside. His proof: There are more people staying out of church than attending. (Or what EWF said...)

I actually think everyone is a hypocrite both in & outside, so the excuse of hypocrites inside a church is a ridiculous.

Now here is a real show stopper question, "does not going to church put you in hell eventually?" Can you substantiate that with scripture?

 

[Jerome]

A while back 'Ruiz' made this pronouncement:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1686809&postcount=22

A person not in a local church has no assurance of their salvation.

Matthew 16:18-20 notes that God's purpose on earth is focused upon the building of God's Church. Jesus and others say that not loving his church is evidence you are not a Christian. The normative in all of Scripture is simple, you become a Christian and come into the church. Those who do not, based upon the testimony of Scripture, cannot be assured of salvation for they are not in God's Church, his lovely bride, they are not showing love towards the brethren, and have separated themselves from the institution that holds the keys of the kingdom. The Bible further links salvation to the church when He says that he "died for the church." The link to God's ordained institution and salvation was not made by me, but the Bible. While we do not worship the church, nor believe in the church for salvation, we acknowledge that the church is central to the plan of salvation on earth. To not belong to the church is to cast doubt on your own love for God's people.

While there may be some people in history who are saved and not a part of the church, they are the vast exception and I do not believe they can have complete assurance of salvation since the keys of the kingdom rest in the church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A while back 'Ruiz' made this pronouncement:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1686809&postcount=22

I would concur with Ruiz that every professing Christian would want to be in communion with Christs church....that is true. But I take the pronouncement literally that where 2 or 3 are gathered in my Name. I have to, primarily because there are no local churches available to me. Sure I could go to a dead church or an apostate church, but I dont think thats where Christ wants me. Look, why can the RCC, the Presbyterians, Episcopals, the Lutherans etc all have multiple presence in any community throughout Northern NJ but Baptists require you to drive way out of your community to go to a church? Are you building community, are you able to be there each and every meeting, and are you able to afford those hefty commutes.......In my case, I'm on a fixed income so I cant afford the gas, the tolls, the total inconvenience. I'm sorry, but thats just the reality of the situation.

By the way, Ive spoken to Ruiz at length about this very topic & he concurred that it would be difficult.....he was the one who asked me to consider a church plant.

In this area, I got all sorts of opinions on doing that, from encouragement from Padre Durant who was very frustrated by the Methodists he was attempting to work with & couldn't, so he built his own independent church in upstate NY; to SBC suggestions---find a church thats doing well & peel off people to start something in your backyard; to, would love to help you but moneys tight; to, the Mother Ship does the planting around these parts--dont mess with the mother ship & dont waste our time.....we are already established & doing fine. Personally I find the last answer to my request the most egregious (and arrogant).

You know what, ta heck with the mother ship......get your fat arses out here, access the situation, realize that its a big void area & do something. Is that not missionary work done in your own back yard too much for you guys or are we just going to spend more time whistling up the alley way & kicking the can down the road.....anyway I thought that was the Govements chosen tactics......didnt know churches also followed suit!

 

[Jerome]

Many Church planters are reluctant to consider a new church plant knowing Trinity in montville has many Dog persons traveling a distance to get there.

Huh? A lot of people are having to travel a distance to get to a church---wouldn't that be a reason to consider church planting rather than a reason not to?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Huh? A lot of people are having to travel a distance to get to a church---wouldn't that be a reason to consider church planting rather than a reason not to?

Yes...church planting is even crutal to the salvation of this entire area.

 

[Iconoclast]

Huh? A lot of people are having to travel a distance to get to a church---wouldn't that be a reason to consider church planting rather than a reason not to?

I am sure that if enough persons were in a particular area...they would plant a church...I believe they have done this....however keep in mind that it is not like any one church has a surplus of elders just sitting around idle.it takes some time to properly train a man to be a scriptural over seer.
it takes committed people who are set to go to work in forming a NT church.

This idea that churches are just going to spring up over night is not realistic at all.
If I sat in my house and just waited until some group started a church right on my block, the last day would happen before that,or i would be out of my body before that happened.