Featured Does God allow Christians 'Free Will" To Reject salvation/Jesus?

It is not that God does not allow you to do it, a saved person retains free will, but now they partake of the divine nature and will not choose to walk away in unbelief.

Some believe Jesus did not have free will, but he did.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus didn't HAVE to go to the cross, he wasn't COMPELLED, he chose to obey his Father. This shows Jesus had CHOICE.

We will also have choice, but we now have a new nature, we share the divine nature and will naturally choose to obey Christ.

The reason we sin now is because we still retain our CORRUPTIBLE flesh which tempts us to sin. In the resurrection we will receive INCORRUPTIBLE bodies which will not tempt us. Therefore we will not sin.

 

If the born-again saved state is such that free will is lost then - it is God adopting a system that voids free will - in which case He could have done this for Lucifer or at the very least Adam and saved us all the trouble.

If the born-again saved state - is such that it is just as impossible for the born again saint to fall from Grace - than it is for the easter bunny to steal your car out of your driveway... then all the Bible warnings about "Fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ" and "you stand only by your faith .. you should fear for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you" -- cannot be taken seriously at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I agree that Matt 7 would not be my first choice to claim that the saved - those joined to Christ and under Grace - can later become "Severed From Christ" and "Fallen From Grace".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Gal 3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Those statements about "having begun by the Spirit" and "you were running well - who hindered you from obeying" do add up to "never saved" as easily a Matt 7 "I never knew you" would possibly allow.

Just as one cannot be severed from Christ if never joined to Christ and one cannot be fallen from Grace - if not first under grace.

in Christ,

Bob

 

in 1Cor 9 Paul says the subject is the Gospel and the purpose is salvation.

His desire it to be a fellow partaker in the Gospel and his concern is that after preaching the Gospel to others he himself might be disqualified from it.

1cor 9
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

No, all those warning make perfect sense, they are for those who have been brought to a point of repentance.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This passage says it is impossible for these persons if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, that is belief. They understand the gospel, they taste it, but they turn from it. I believe this is the point of no return, when you reject Christ in this state, you will never be brought to repentance again.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Here is a warning, that the hearer should come short of the promise of eternal life in Jesus. But note that the persons who came short NEVER believed.

Then a few verses later, we see another warning;

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

You can hear the gospel and understand it. You can know you are a sinner and bound for hell. You can believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins, and yet you can harden your heart and not trust Jesus to save you because you wish to continue in sin.

This is what men are warned about.

Now, the warning in Romans is the most difficult to understand.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Now, of all scripture that supports a person losing salvation, I would say this is the strongest. It says these persons are standing by faith, but they should fear, lest God also spare not them. They must continue in faith.

So, this does argue that faith is a continuous thing. But again, Jesus said of those who were lost that he NEVER knew them. They never had a real faith in Jesus. And, it is said of those that depart that it is evident they were never saved to begin with.

1 Jhn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This verse shows that those that did not continue were never saved to begin with. So, you must see the warning in Romans 11 in this light.

In addition, there are scriptures that show once a person is saved, they cannot be lost.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said that whoever believes on him has everlasting life now, and shall not come into condemnation. This could not be said if you could lose salvation.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse says we are sons of God NOW. This argues that a person cannot lose salvation, if a person could lose salvation, it would be presumptuous to say we are the sons of God now.

So, I have looked at many scriptures concerning this topic, and I do not believe you can lose your salvation. There are MANY warnings in scripture, but I believe these apply to persons who have been enlightened and brought to the point of repentance, but have fallen away in unbelief.

 

I you maintain the unlikely idea that being a partaker of the Holy Spirit and being enlightened under the gospel is the description of the "lost state" then it makes nonsense of vs 6 saying it is impossible to "renew them again" to that supposedly lost state. How is it that the lost cannot be renewed again to their never-saved lost-state? Makes no sense.

===========================================
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
=============================

It is clearly teaching that they cannot be renewed to their former saved state - as if this is a bad thing. It is not arguing that the lost cannot be renewed to their former lost state. For if that were the case it would be "a good thing".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes, he is talking about preaching the gospel and getting other folks saved, he is not talking about his own personal salvation. He does not want to fail as a preacher, to be a castaway, such as Jim Bakker back in the 80s.

 

indeed that is true. And the warning means nothing if it is something like the easter-bunny stealing your car language where the problem that is to cause you to fear is not to be taken seriously.

I do agree that there is a Matt 7 case of those never saved. But Romans 11 is not arguing that the never-saved should fear lest they fall from their never-saved state.

It is speaking to the saved. Those that stand "only by your faith".

In Romans 11 he argues that those who were removed CAN be "renewed again" if they do not "continue in unbelief". He is not talking about those who fell being renewed to a 'never saved in the first place" state.


in Christ,

Bob

 

One more example in this list and that is Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked.

The one fully forgiven has his forgiveness revoked and Christ ends the illustration by making the point "so shall My Father do to to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

in Christ,

Bob

 

They are at the very crossroad of being saved. It is now or never. They understand they need to be saved, but they choose sin. I believe they will never again be brought to this state of conviction.

It does not say they are saved, it says they have been enlightened, they have "tasted" of the world to come. But they have not eaten.

This compares with Jesus when he said those that "eat" my body and "drink" my blood shall never perish. It is not enough to taste something, you must eat or you will starve.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is not enough to taste, you must EAT and DRINK.

 

I looked at all these scripture that do SEEM to say a person can lose salvation. I can easily understand how any person can believe that is what these scriptures are saying.

But still, I believe scripture when rightly interpreted shows once you are truly saved, you cannot lose it.

Again, when we receive Jesus, we are JOINED to his Spirit and become ONE. You cannot walk away from YOURSELF.

Jesus said we have PASSED from death to life and SHALL NOT come into condemnation. If we could lose salvation this verse would not be true.

Scripture says NOW we are the sons of God. If salvation is conditioned upon us persevering, it could never be said you are a son of God now.

We will have to agree to disagree. But I have looked carefully at your view.

 

No, in Romans 11 Paul is speaking of Jews who NEVER believed, just like those in Matthew 7. It is not saying they lost their salvation, they never believed. Paul is saying if they repent from their unbelief they can be graffed back in, this is the tree of election.

Men are not born lost. The scriptures speak of men being BLOTTED OUT of the book of life, not being added to it. Your name had to be in the book of life to be blotted out.

That is what this is saying, these men were in the book of life, or the tree, but because of willing disobedience and unbelief they have been broken off. If they repent of unbelief they can be graffed back in.

 

To "restore them again" to that "never believed state" as soon as they "believe" appears to be a flaw in that solution.

It makes more sense to argue that the fallen Jews as Paul says of Timothy who was raised as a Jew - were saved by then when confronted with the News that Jesus is the long looked for Messiah - fell and became lost.

Otherwise the discussion goes to the topic of a promise to restore fallen Jews to their never-saved-to-start with former state.

Romans 11 does not use the Matt 7 language of "I never knew you" - rather it uses the "restore them AGAIN" language which would not work at all in one of the "never knew you to start with " scenarios.

Matt 7 on the other hand presents both the saved and the lost state of the pre-cross Jews because it contrasts the good trees from the bad ones. And it says that those who are entering heaven as those who "hear my words and do them" for "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but he who DOES the will of My Father".

This is a case of Christ showing the saved state and the lost state of Jews in his day. The good trees and the bad trees. Pre-cross.

And those who fell - fell because they turned from that path and rejected the news that they got about Jesus being the Messiah.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Then you have the saved being lost - and then saved "once again" even in your model.

How much more so in the case of the warnings God gives to those who "stand only by their faith".

But in Romans 11 it cannot be said that they are all Jewish infants who later reject Christ.

Rather as we see in the good trees of Matt 7 and in the 2Tim 3 case where the scriptures known to Timothy as a Jewish child were fully sufficient to lead him to salvation - God never said that all OT saints ( of Heb 11 for example) were lost because they did not live in the NT age.

Thus Romans 11 can indeed be a reference to saved Jews - that became lost and then are able to be "grafted in again" to their former saved "name in the book of life" state.


in Christ,

Bob

 

No, they are not originally saved, you have to be lost to be saved. They are born upright, just as scripture says.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Scripture says God made man upright or sinless. The word "they" points right back to "man" and shows this is speaking of all men, not just Adam and Eve.

Now, I have shown you scripture that directly says God has made men upright, but you believe the doctrine of Augustine that men are born sinful.

Now show me where scripture says men are born sinful. Show me.

No, Paul is not speaking of infants at all. In fact, I doubt Paul was ever speaking to men until their Bar Mitzvah, which is age 13. This is when Jewish boys learn the law and become accountable as adults. This matches up perfectly with scripture.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not allow the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the promised land, which is a figure of heaven, but he allowed their children to enter in, because they had no knowledge between good and evil in that day.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Again, this scripture shows little children do not at first know between good and evil. This verse also refutes Total Inability, because it shows even a child can refuse evil and CHOOSE GOOD.

Note that I am showing you an abundance of scripture to support my view. You have not shown one verse that says men are born dead in sin or with a sin nature. Not one.

No, in context Paul is speaking of Jews who tried to work their way to heaven through works.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

These Jews were trying to merit their way to heaven through the law.

 

Me thinks thou protest too much.

Logically, if a person walked into Christ, or caused him or herself to be in Christ, then, logically it follows a person could walk out.

However, if we do not put ourselves in Christ, but rather we are spiritually set apart in Christ by God (the sanctifying work of the Spirit) then logically it follows a person could not put themselves spiritually out of Christ.

Our "free will" only ranges as far as God allows. If God hardens a person's heart, Romans 11, then they have lost the free will choice of trusting in Christ.

You say once saved, always saved is a man-made doctrine, apparently believing in the possibility of loss of salvation as a biblical doctrine.
I would say the opposite. In Matthew 7, we see folks that said they thought they were saved, yet Jesus said He never knew them. John says folks go out from us because they are not of us. So clearly loss of professed salvation, i.e. salvation as claimed by the individual, is biblical.

All the "endure to the end" passages can be understood to refer to demonstrating salvation rather than providing salvation. If God put you in Christ, then you will endure to the end (1 Peter 1:3-5).

 

Osas.

Emotionally only believers care about this for their love ones who left the faith.

The unbelievers don't care about it.

The scripture teaches the seed can be choked out and it also teaches if they were His they would never of left in the first place.

My job as a believer is to encourage people to believe in Jesus and not to turn away from Him.

The ones who do turn away with even the warning, is to left lift them up in prayer and petition to God and put it in His Hand not to believe an unbiblical truth for me emotionally for those who walk away from the truth.

I do know for those who know what Christ did for them it would be impossible for them to walk away forever.

We all are going to be going through trials and tribulation, that is why we need each others encouragement not the it's O.K. to walk away you will still be saved garbage.

To those infants and mental retardants who have not started to work but are in His rest, don't need to enter a rest they are already in.

 

1. Those who have left the faith were never saved in the first place, they were professing Christians (tares) but they left because they were not "of us."

2. Those that care for biblical truth care about the doctrine of osas.

3. Yes, not all people who "receive" the gospel, i.e. embrace it and say they believe, are really believers. God knows their hearts, and He knows who really are believers. The third soil embraced Jesus from the heart, but put Him among their other treasures. A fatal mistake. God would never count such a less than "wholehearted faith" as righteousness, and therefore never set them apart in Christ.

4. Our job with those who professed faith but then turned away is to continue to present the truth to them. Letting them know you have to go "all in" for Christ, putting Him before whatever it was they turned to, i.e. the world or the desires of the flesh.

5. The proper head knowledge, i.e. knowing Christ suffered and died for them, does not provide salvation. Only when God credits their faith, does He set them apart spiritually in Christ. And if He does, then He keeps them for their reward in heaven.

 

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