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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Oct 25, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can spiritual dead sinners be able to wake themselves up enough to believe in jesus, and then get woken up again?
     
    #21 Yeshua1, Oct 28, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "I WILL DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32.

    Even the most diehard Calvinist will admit that the supernatural "drawing" of God - enables all the "choice" in man that depravity disables - when it comes to accepting the Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #22 BobRyan, Oct 28, 2013
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I guess I don't fit what you call a "Calvinist" because your assertion above is not true of my position. We do not believe that drawing is merely enabling of choice but rather is a revelation by God that CREATES faith. I suggest you compare the charateristics listed in Ephesians 4:18 of the unregenerated condition where one is alienated from the life of God with the characteristics listed in 2 Cor. 4:6 where a creative command occurs that reverses all those characteristics in Ephesians 4:18. Go study that and then come back we can discuss not merely the contrasts but the consequences between the two.
     
    #23 The Biblicist, Oct 28, 2013
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How can you deny Matthew 23:13 again and again and again. Total Spiritual Inability is found nowhere is scripture. Matthew 13 says 3 of 4 soils are able to believe in Jesus to some degree. Romans 9:16 indicates some men are willing to be saved and others will do works (run) to be saved. Why deny verse after verse. Calvinism relies on obfuscation of the truth.
     
    #24 Van, Oct 29, 2013
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To be drawn simply means to be attracted by the lovingkindness shown by Christ dying for our sins. We must believe in God to accept Christ died for us. Thus those who believe in God or are open to God and hear the gospel are drawn when they behold Christ high and lifted up. Only mistaken doctrines make a mystery of the obvious. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us by dying for us. This is really simply.
     
    #25 Van, Oct 29, 2013
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There is but ONE soil that Jesus calls "good" and it is not soils 1,2 or 3. There is but one soil that contains all Christians in various stages of fruit production (some 30, 60, 100) and it is not soils 1,2,or 3. Soils 1, 2 and 3 all represent FALS PROFESSORS.


    Romans 9:16 represent those first three soils, all of which like the rich young ruler want and seek after eternal life but for all the wrong reasons.

    Matthew 23:13 completely repudiates your whole reasoning. When you believe and preach the wrong gospel you shut up the kingdom of God to all who hear you as there is no gospel being preached and thus no salvation possible. Remember the elect are chosen "TO" salvation THROUGH elected means which include belief in the true gospel.

    John 6:44 clearly teaches universal inability in no uncertain terms "no man can come to me"! If that were not true then there would be no need for an exception clause. The exception clause demands universal inability or otherwise it would not be necessary. Romans 8:7-8 teaches total inability in the clearest terms possible. Romans 3:9-19 teaches universal total inabilith in the clearest terms possible. The problem is not in the scriptures but in your mind and heart.
     
    #26 The Biblicist, Oct 29, 2013
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More absurdity and stonewalling. Matthew 23:13 has men "entering heaven" so they were seeking God effectively. Thus total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are mistaken doctrine. There is no mystery. The truth is obvious.

    Next we have a Calvinist claiming men were seeking God for the wrong reasons, trying to have it both ways, no one ever seeks God but when they do.... Twaddle

    To be drawn simply means to be attracted by the lovingkindness shown by Christ dying for our sins. We must believe in God to accept Christ died for us. Thus those who believe in God or are open to God and hear the gospel are drawn when they behold Christ high and lifted up. Only mistaken doctrines make a mystery of the obvious. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us by dying for us. This is really simply. No one can come to Jesus unless they have been drawn by the lovingkindness of God. Fallen men have the ability to respond to the gospel, so the inability in view is the inability to come to Jesus without hearing the gospel. There is no mystery.
     
    #27 Van, Oct 29, 2013
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

    Did not God choose those rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? When God credits our faith, as wretched as it may be, as righteousness, He sets us apart spiritually in Christ, our individual election for salvation.
     
    #28 Van, Oct 29, 2013
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    either ALL sinners have this innate faith
    OR
    God gives it all sinners by Grace, but he waits to see who will correctly respond, so do the others have that faith just die on the vine?
    OR
    NONE have inherit faith within their sin natures, and God gives that faith toHis chosen in Christ, as he supplies what they need to confirm His election of them unto salvation?
     
    #29 Yeshua1, Oct 29, 2013
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More graffiti from Calvinism. No one has "innate faith". God does not instill "innate faith" in anyone. Trusting in Christ is not innate (or inherit) but results from wholeheartedly embracing the gospel of Christ. The gospel is the power of God for salvation.

    Did not God choose those rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? When God credits our faith, as wretched as it may be, as righteousness, He sets us apart spiritually in Christ, our individual election for salvation.

    Why do we love Him. Because He first loved us, and demonstrated that love for us by dying for our sins on the cross. We were drawn when we beheld Him high and lifted up.
     
    #30 Van, Oct 30, 2013
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

    Propitiation provides the means of salvation, everyone that is placed spiritually in Christ is propitiated, i.e. saved. We are sealed in Christ after we have believed (as credited by God). Everyone placed in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation born anew, and made alive together with Christ.
     
    #31 Van, Oct 30, 2013
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Do you have a problem reading English or do you have poor eye sight! There are none entering into heaven in this text as that is precisely what Jesus is denying occurred due to their false gospel - NONE entered.

    You have no answers for the rest and so you do the normal ridicule routine to cover your obvious ignorance and error.
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #33 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2013
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