On Reformation Day

[Luke2427]

First off, I do apologize if my explanation was not clear. I do not know any other way to put it, so I’ll simply try again.

I honor Luther in terms of respecting his work and contributions to our faith. I feel the same about men like Jan Hus and Wycliffe. It is in this way that I believe that we honor those who served our nation. I do not view these people as an authority of how I should live. Likewise, I do not accept Luther as an authority of my faith. He did not discover, but rediscovered and reemphasized what was already there. This is where we disagree. I know that you observe Reformation Day as Luther is “an authority” of your faith. I am sure that you will be observing Radical Reformation Day in January as they contributed as much to your beliefs. I’m sure that you pay tribute to Hus and Wycliffe. I am not condemning you for observing these days, but I am saying that you have departed from Scripture by trying to condemn others for not observing these days. I prefer to acknowledge and think of the reformation as a whole, and in that honor the work of God wrought throughout that timeperiod (to include the pre-Reformation and the Second Front) because I believe it forms a greater perspective on the works which contributed to the formation of Baptist doctrine. But I do not place any of these men, used of God, as an authority of faith. Perhaps it is time to be less juvinile and more Christlike, Luke.

No one is saying you HAVE to honor Luther.

What I am telling you is that your REASONS for your REFUSING to honor Luther are deficient.

They are deficient first of all because you say he did not move far enough from the Catholic Church so you will not honor him. Well, that's like saying, "The founding fathers did not move far enough toward freedom because they still owned slaves, and though they CHANGED THE WORLD and brought an almost UNPRECEDENTED FREEDOM to it, I don't care, I will not honor them!!"

If we do not honor imperfect men then we will never honor ANY man- including our fathers (yes biological- I am not making any leaps from biological to forefathers- I am simply saying God obviously is not against honoring imperfect men) whom God says in one of his Ten Commandments to HONOR.

The founding fathers were not perfect but every American ought to feel obliged to be thankful for their courage, sacrifices and ideology which was uncannily progressive for their time. We appreciate them for what they were in their CONTEXT. And since we daily draw from the well of freedom they dug out for us with their own battered hands- decency demands we honor them.

You may agree with this point. You said earlier that Independence Day does not mean anything to you so far as remembering and being thankful for the men who MADE US INDEPENDENT- but I cannot help but think you really do appreciate them and remember them on Independence Day. You AT LEAST admit that you honor Veterans on Veterans Day and Memorial Day.

So, here's the thing. Luther did more for you than the founding fathers of America. He took on a mightier empire, introduced more controversial ideas, broke the back of a much greater form of bondage which held many more people in its iron grip, and his accomplishments brought the Word of God and the God of the Word to the people and we have had free, unabated access to them ever since.

Even the founders have said, "It is impossible to govern a people apart from God and the Bible." Even THEIR deeds stood upon the shoulders of Luther's.

But Luther was very imperfect- like you and me. But we honor him in his context.

And if a man celebrates Independence Day- he is rather hypocritical not not celebrate Reformation Day.

You DON'T HAVE TO.

You just OUGHT to.

So your reasoning for not honoring Luther is deficient because it is based on imperfections of his which had much to do with his context much like our founding fathers' imperfections had to do with their context but both they AND Luther brought EXTRAORDINARY light to the world that still shines upon our faces. To be thankful for it- to remember fondly what they did for us is appropriate.

But secondly, your reasons for refusing to honor Luther are deficient because they are inconsistent.

You honor men who have done less for the world than Luther and then say you only honor Jesus so you will not honor Luther.

Well, that is extraordinarily inconsistent.

 

[Jerome]

Found it: II Helvetic 24:4

"we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all."

 

[JonC]

What I am telling you is that your REASONS for your REFUSING to honor Luther are deficient.

Ahhh. I see the misunderstanding. I do not refuse to honor Luther because of his imperfections. I actually do honor Luther in terms of respecting the man and his contributions. It is the same with our national heroes. My observance of Independence Day consists of enjoying time with my family as it is a federal holiday and affords me the opportunity. But were it not a federal holiday it would be a day just like any other. This does not mean that I am ungrateful for my independence (such as it is these days)
.
Luther did not embody the Reformation in its entirety. He stood on the shoulders of those who went before and paved the way for those who came after. His was not the first step in the Reformation, nor the last – but it was a huge step which should be respected, acknowledged and remembered. I honor Luther by remembering and respecting the light that he shown in a dark world. I do not pay tribute to the man as an authority of my faith. That’s all. We are not that different, you and I.

 

[JonC]

Found it: II Helvetic 24:4

"we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all."

The Second Helvetic Confession, which was less Lutheran...so this would be the Reformed position as opposed to the Lutheran?

Wouldn't the puritan position be similar to this?

 

[Luke2427]

Ahhh. I see the misunderstanding. I do not refuse to honor Luther because of his imperfections.

I think if you'll look back at your first post in this thread you'll see that your reasoning at least SOUNDED like you refused to honor Luther because he did not come out of the Catholic Church enough.

I actually agree that he did not go far enough. But I am able to appreciate men who accomplish great things from which I daily benefit even if they were very imperfect- especially in light of their historical context. If we have not done more in our context, which you and I haven't, then we ought to admire what he did in his.

I actually do honor Luther in terms of respecting the man and his contributions. It is the same with our national heroes. My observance of Independence Day consists of enjoying time with my family as it is a federal holiday and affords me the opportunity. But were it not a federal holiday it would be a day just like any other. This does not mean that I am ungrateful for my independence (such as it is these days)

We employ fireworks on Independence Day to signify the bursting of bombs our forefathers endured as the price for our freedom.

A DAY is not something to honor. People make days what they are. We honor the PEOPLE that make the days what they are.
.

Luther did not embody the Reformation in its entirety. He stood on the shoulders of those who went before and paved the way for those who came after.

So did every other great human being in history- especially our founding fathers.

I thank God for Wycliff, Huss and all of those who by the power of God made the Reformation possible.

I do not pay tribute to the man as an authority of my faith. That’s all. We are not that different, you and I.

Yes, well then Thomas Jefferson is no authority on independence. By that standard nobody is any authority in anything.

Yes, the solas existed before Luther just as the principles and ideals of freedom existed before our founding fathers. But we are thankful for their place in history as those who dug them up out of the heap of error in which they had long been buried and gave them back to the world.

 

[JonC]

Yes, the solas existed before Luther just as the principles and ideals of freedom existed before our founding fathers. But we are thankful for their place in history as those who dug them up out of the heap of error in which they had long been buried and gave them back to the world.

:thumbsup: Exactly...I couldn't agree more. Too often people take for granted the doctrines and biblical truths that others struggled and died for - too often Americans take for granted the freedoms that others have fought for and still fight to defend.

 

[Inspector Javert]

You guys seem to be talking past each other with an ambiguity with the word
"authority".

Luke is expanding on the definition in the sense of saying:
"Stephen Hawking is an authority on Big-Bang cosmology."
or
"Albert Einstein was/is an authority on physics."
(by which, he means "expert".)

John, is not trading on the same meaning:
He is denying that Luther is an "authority" in the sense of clerical authority; or eldership within the Church. In that sense.....Luther is, in no way an "authority" as in, has proper power or influence into anyone's beliefs or faith.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbsup: Exactly...I couldn't agree more. Too often people take for granted the doctrines and biblical truths that others struggled and died for - too often Americans take for granted the freedoms that others have fought for and still fight to defend.

Let's enjoy this moment. This is what debate is all about. We discussed this thing until we came to a general accord on the issues we discussed.

We both honed our understanding of these matters.

We were both wrong in some of the things we said but we kept talking those things out until we learned how to think right about them.

I was absolutely WRONG on the Romans 13 passage and you did not yield until I got it. EXCELLENT!! God bless you!

It got heated in places which is ok. It takes heat to bend and refine and purify most metals.

Here is what I suspect. We both moved a little in the right direction on this matter from where we stood at the start.

THIS... is what baptistboard ought to be about.

 

[JonC]

Let's enjoy this moment. This is what debate is all about. We discussed this thing until we came to a general accord on the issues we discussed.

We both honed our understanding of these matters.
.

I think most who post here expect their views to be challenged. Often this is why I post - to refine my understanding, probably more than to advance a view. While these discussions often become heated, sometimes a little too hot, they are family arguments between children of the same Father.

I believe that Inspector Javert is correct in that we were using different definitions. To my discredit, this was a suspicion that I ignored earlier and simply pressed forward to flame the fire. As Veterans Day came about I understood more of the context in which you were speaking. I’ve been a soldier for a couple of decades, and I’ve lost friends who I remember for their sacrifice. But in regards to this thread, there were several instances where I became facetious and stubborn. I was actually unfamiliar with Reformation Day (I’m SBC and in my area have not been exposed to the tradition). Perhaps next year I’d be more inclined to celebrate the day.

As I see no gaping wounds or missing limbs, I agree with your assessment - we both moved a little in the right direction.

 

[Luke2427]

I think most who post here expect their views to be challenged. Often this is why I post - to refine my understanding, probably more than to advance a view. While these discussions often become heated, sometimes a little too hot, they are family arguments between children of the same Father.

I believe that Inspector Javert is correct in that we were using different definitions. To my discredit, this was a suspicion that I ignored earlier and simply pressed forward to flame the fire. As Veterans Day came about I understood more of the context in which you were speaking. I’ve been a soldier for a couple of decades, and I’ve lost friends who I remember for their sacrifice. But in regards to this thread, there were several instances where I became facetious and stubborn. I was actually unfamiliar with Reformation Day (I’m SBC and in my area have not been exposed to the tradition). Perhaps next year I’d be more inclined to celebrate the day.

As I see no gaping wounds or missing limbs, I agree with your assessment - we both moved a little in the right direction.

This is what baptistboard ought to be all about.

This is why debate is such a good thing.