Thanks for being objective

[Iconoclast]

Before the thread killer posts again and this must be closed....

I guess I need to go on the record and say that I am not a Calvinist. It is rather humorous that I am accused of being one. I believe if you check with the Calvinists on this board they will confirm this.


I greatly disagree with much of their doctrine. However, what I abhor is people who cannot disagree without questioning the salvation of others. I believe far to many cals are rancorous, over bearing, and use attack dog style debate tactics. But they are all born again Christians and love the Lord.

Suggesting otherwise is childish and a sophomoric debate tactic.

I wanted to thank RM.....for being objective and exposing the clear agenda.
You are seeking to be objective and speak out as you see it:wavey:

Some by their disturbed posting have closed out more than mariano rivera:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Before the thread killer posts again and this must be closed....



I wanted to thank RM.....for being objective and exposing the clear agenda.
You are seeking to be objective and speak out as you see it:wavey:

Some by their disturbed posting have closed out more than mariano rivera:thumbs:

Totally bogus, I NEVER questioned anyone's salvation.

Please show where I questioned anyone's salvation, you can't do it.

I pointed out the errors of Calvinism, that is not the same thing whatsoever.

 

[agedman]

Totally bogus, I NEVER questioned anyone's salvation.

Please show where I questioned anyone's salvation, you can't do it.

I pointed out the errors of Calvinism, that is not the same thing whatsoever.

"pointing out errors in Calvinism"

Perhaps considering the eye problems in the Bible would be more helpful.

 

[Winman]

"pointing out errors in Calvinism"

Perhaps considering the eye problems in the Bible would be more helpful.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out errors in doctrine, this is exactly what your beloved "reformers" did 500 years ago.

I do not make empty statements like many, I almost always provide scripture to support my view. Almost never does anyone ever address the scripture I show and show how my interpretation might be wrong.

I have received an infraction for questioning someone's salvation, when I did no such thing. If I did, please show it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Totally bogus, I NEVER questioned anyone's salvation.

Please show where I questioned anyone's salvation, you can't do it.

I pointed out the errors of Calvinism, that is not the same thing whatsoever.

Rm opposes me many times.....and i have opposed him and yet he is seeing the exact same thing. Biblicist schools you, agedman schools you, P4T schools you......Your agenda has warped your views and you have a bitter spirit...it is rottenous to the bones:wavey::wavey:

I do not make empty statements like many, I almost always provide scripture to support my view. Almost never does anyone ever address the scripture I show and show how my interpretation might be wrong.

Your views are outside of orthodox.You have been offered correction...you refuse the correction.You are becoming a caricature of yourself!!!!

 

[Winman]

Rm opposes me many times.....and i have opposed him and yet he is seeing the exact same thing. Biblicist schools you, agedman schools you, P4T schools you......Your agenda has warped your views and you have a bitter spirit...it is rottenous to the bones:wavey::wavey:

That is not the issue, RevMitchell said I questioned someone's salvation, I would like to see evidence where I did that.

I have found if I really expose the serious errors of Calvinism I am immediately shut down. Many here are terrified of the truth.

In the meantime, you call my views, warped, bitter, and rotten to the bones.

That's OK, I expect people to attack me when I expose error. :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

That is not the issue, RevMitchell said I questioned someone's salvation, I would like to see evidence where I did that.

I have found if I really expose the serious errors of Calvinism I am immediately shut down. Many here are terrified of the truth.

In the meantime, you call my views, warped, bitter, and rotten to the bones.

That's OK, I expect people to attack me when I expose error. :thumbs:

In the closed thread you said this....

What a hypocrite! You do not know Greek or Hebrew yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Matt
I am more than sure I can post my own response to anything you have to offer. I do not know greek and hebrew however,so if is alright with you I will cut and paste by those who do........and even if it is not alright with you.

here i said what i said...i never agrue when someone like archangel offers greek help......i accept it after checking it out.

No double speak, no dismissing the knowledge offered, no novelities like you post.You invent things that are so foolish they refute themselves...

RM only agrees on 2-3 pts...of the 5...but even he was repulsed by your foul postings...:wavey::wavey:

 

[Winman]

In the closed thread you said this....


here i said what i said...i never agrue when someone like archangel offers greek help......i accept it after checking it out.

No double speak, no dismissing the knowledge offered, no novelities like you post.You invent things that are so foolish they refute themselves...

RM only agrees on 2-3 pts...of the 5...but even he was repulsed by your foul postings...:wavey::wavey:

What did this have to do with the thread that was closed where RevMitchell said I questioned someone's salvation? NOTHING.

And you were a total hypocrite in that thread you showed, you strongly criticized and ridiculed me because I do not know Greek or Hebrew, when you do not know Greek or Hebrew either!

That is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

And unlike anyone here, I showed EVIDENCE, I quoted you verbatim where you yourself directly said you do not know Greek or Hebrew, and I gave a link to the post where you said that.

Now, show where I questioned someone's salvation in the thread that was closed, you can't do it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here are the facts:

Winman has claimed word for word Calvinist do NOT believe the Bible. There has also been the claim (from him, & others, one a mod) that we have a works based salvation. This goes on without a hitch.

And we all know what these accusations mean so let's not pretend.

I've always found it intriguing that those from THAT camp can get by with many egregious accusations with out an infraction or snip. The leader of the pack says to report it. They've been reported and are hardly EVER snipped. Somehow I get taunted about this fact concerning nothing is done about it.

However, the slightest HINT of anything personal is met with intimidation and threats if the OTHER camp sees it directed toward them (him really) although the opposing camp uses the same tactics they accuse and in the same immediate context to which I speak. The tribe rush in to support.

All in a days work on BB.

I will say this -- I don't care if any of these want to call my salvation into question, or 'taunt' me about the fact reports toward their camp go unchecked. I'm secure due to Him and don't care about that as much, just saying. Other than that I DO care only because it is against the BB rules and has been allowed long enough from that camp towards mine and reporting hasn't done one thing.

 

[preacher4truth]

Totally bogus, I NEVER questioned anyone's salvation.

Please show where I questioned anyone's salvation, you can't do it.

I pointed out the errors of Calvinism, that is not the same thing whatsoever.

Totally untrue and you know it. That and you've not yet pointed out one error in 'Calvinism' and when you attempt to you employ language that calls the salvation of that camp into question. Follow along.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out errors in doctrine, this is exactly what your beloved "reformers" did 500 years ago.

You've not done this to date.

I do not make empty statements like many, I almost always provide scripture to support my view. Almost never does anyone ever address the scripture I show and show how my interpretation might be wrong.

You proof text. It means taking texts out of context and establishing unorthodox doctrine and contradicting other Biblical truths. Your 'interpretations' have been shown to be in error many many times, but you are incapable of seeing your errors.

I have received an infraction for questioning someone's salvation, when I did no such thing. If I did, please show it.

And you should have received one and more. You IMO should have received one for saying our Gospel is false. You should have received one for saying we don't believe the Bible. You should have received one for saying we have a works salvation. Each and every one of these, were by there intent from you, used and purposed to call our salvation into question, as this is your objective.

 

[Winman]

In the closed thread you said this....


here i said what i said...i never agrue when someone like archangel offers greek help......i accept it after checking it out.

No double speak, no dismissing the knowledge offered, no novelities like you post.You invent things that are so foolish they refute themselves...

RM only agrees on 2-3 pts...of the 5...but even he was repulsed by your foul postings...:wavey::wavey:

Here is the post where P4T criticized me for not know Greek and Hebrew, and you joined in.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2047066&postcount=54

And here is another post of yours from 2010 where you directly say you do not know Greek and Hebrew;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1613184&postcount=19

This is the height of hypocrisy, and I have presented EVIDENCE to support your statements. (Unlike you)

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is the post where P4T criticized me for not know Greek and Hebrew, and you joined in.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2047066&postcount=54

And here is another post of yours from 2010 where you directly say you do not know Greek and Hebrew;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1613184&postcount=19

This is the height of hypocrisy, and I have presented EVIDENCE to support your statements. (Unlike you)

I never ridiculed you for not knowing Greek, that is not at all what it was about. It's sad that is what you actually THINK it was about. Guess what? It wasn't.

As I also said, you'll never see it, and that is even more sad than the rest. At least Icon knows what I am saying, and I have nothing but respect for him and my other brothers on here.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is the post where P4T criticized me for not know Greek and Hebrew, and you joined in.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2047066&postcount=54

And here is another post of yours from 2010 where you directly say you do not know Greek and Hebrew;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1613184&postcount=19

This is the height of hypocrisy, and I have presented EVIDENCE to support your statements. (Unlike you)

You still do not get it.You have a reading problem in english, forget about the greek.You and van were rightly called out for trying to ignore people like Archangel and others who post the greek....you resist...they know what they are talking about...you and van do not...but instead ridicule those who do.

If i said I knew greek,and do not, that would be a lie.....I said what i said..read it again...try to understand
:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

I never ridiculed you for not knowing Greek, that is not at all what it was about. It's sad that is what you actually THINK it was about. Guess what? It wasn't.

As I also said, you'll never see it, and that is even more sad than the rest. At least Icon knows what I am saying, and I have nothing but respect for him and my other brothers on here.

Correct...his agenda has made him so bitter he has a jaundiced eye:thumbs:
He does not want truth...only contention:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Totally untrue and you know it. That and you've not yet pointed out one error in 'Calvinism' and when you attempt to you employ language that calls the salvation of that camp into question. Follow along.

I called Calvinism into question, I am allowed to do that. But I did not question any person's salvation, you cannot (and you have not) shown this.

I am not stupid, if you could show it, you would have by now. So, the charge by RevMitchell that I questioned someone's salvation is completely BOGUS.

You've not done this to date.

I showed a quote by R.C. Sproul quoting John Calvin that said a pure life is the PROOF and EVIDENCE of election. The same statement said that this pure life not only shows others you are the elect, it is the foundation for your own assurance and confidence. It also said to WORK to assure yourself.

John Calvin reminds us that “purity of life is not improperly called the evidence and proof of election, by which the faithful may not only testify to others that they are the children of God, but also confirm themselves in this confidence.” Work at supplementing your faith with the virtues of 2 Peter 1:5–7 so that you may grow in assurance of your salvation, and be wary of those who confess Christ and yet show no desire for holiness.

Now, how in the world can you deny that noted Calvinists teach that works are the basis of a Calvinist's assurance of salvation?

This is not questioning your salvation, this is questioning the doctrine of Calvinism.

You proof text. It means taking texts out of context and establishing unorthodox doctrine and contradicting other Biblical truths. Your 'interpretations' have been shown to be in error many many times, but you are incapable of seeing your errors.

I quoted R.C. Sproul and John Calvin and they agree with me! :BangHead:

And you should have received one and more. You IMO should have received one for saying our Gospel is false. You should have received one for saying we don't believe the Bible. You should have received one for saying we have a works salvation. Each and every one of these, were by their intent from you, used and purposed to call our salvation into question, as this is your objective.

I sincerely believe Calvinism teaches a false gospel. According to 1 Corinthians 15:3, Paul preached to the Corinthians that Jesus died for OUR SINS;

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Calvinists that believe in Limited Atonement do not believe this, they believe Jesus only died for some men, only for the elect. That is not what Paul preached.

Paul did not know who was elect when he first preached the gospel to the Corinthians, yet he told every single person there that Jesus died for OUR SINS.

Again, this is pointing out what I believe are serious errors in Calvinism, but I am not questioning anyone's salvation.

A person could be saved and yet believe this error. Probably all Christians hold to some error here or there. I am not immune to this.

 

[Winman]

I never ridiculed you for not knowing Greek, that is not at all what it was about. It's sad that is what you actually THINK it was about. Guess what? It wasn't.

As I also said, you'll never see it, and that is even more sad than the rest. At least Icon knows what I am saying, and I have nothing but respect for him and my other brothers on here.

Right. You must think people are morons. You were obviously slamming me in your post, because I had responded to Biblicist that I did not know Greek or Hebrew, so an argument from Greek or Hebrew was meaningless to me. His argument might be correct, or it might be error, I have no way to tell not knowing these languages or their grammar.

Here is what you said, referring to my answer to Biblicist;

When I see any person dismiss the study and academic understanding of theology with this lame excuse (or such like) 'I do not know Greek, nor Greek grammar, so your argument means nothing to me' I just shake my head in disgust of such a weak, shameful and shallow position.

The quote comes to an ignorant, arrogant and dismissive conclusion that is irrational and bogus. We are both Spiritually and intellectually responsible for where we are at in this life, thus was Nicodemus rebuked for 'not knowing' and for being Spiritually ignorant as well. This goes hand in hand.

and...

That cretinous and benighted attitude right there describes one of the major problems in the church today -- lack of knowledge -- 2 Peter 3:18, or what we can call 'ignorance' according to the Scriptures.

and...

These typically implement a 'proof text theology' (using a verse out of context that contradicts Scripture and dogmatic truth in many other areas of the Bible). The sad thing is they absolutely cannot and will not see the error of their ways.

I guess in your view these are all compliments. :laugh:

Again, I show EVIDENCE, you do not.

 

[BobRyan]

Totally bogus, I NEVER questioned anyone's salvation.

Please show where I questioned anyone's salvation, you can't do it.

I pointed out the errors of Calvinism, that is not the same thing whatsoever.

I did not see you say that any person is lost (at least not in the posts I have read so far) -- only that that the SYSTEM of Calvinism requires certain observations, certain "evidence" to know if a given individual is saved or not.

Not sure why making an observation about the way a system of theology works - is construed as saying that so-and-so is not really saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

You still do not get it.You have a reading problem in english, forget about the greek.You and van were rightly called out for trying to ignore people like Archangel and others who post the greek....you resist...they know what they are talking about...you and van do not...but instead ridicule those who do.

If i said I knew greek,and do not, that would be a lie.....I said what i said..read it again...try to understand
:thumbs::wavey:

Van might have debated with Archangel about Greek, but not me. I do not debate Greek because I do not know Greek. What Van does is his business.

But even if Archangel knows Greek, that doesn't prove he is always correct. Greek scholars have disagreed over Greek texts for centuries. I gave a link for just such a discussion that shows Greek scholars disagreeing. I will show it again.

http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v12n2_4is_faith_a_gift_from_god_according.pdf

A very good article, you really should give it a read. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

I did not see you say that any person is lost (at least not in the posts I have read so far) -- only that that the SYSTEM of Calvinism requires certain observations, certain "evidence" to know if a given individual is saved or not.

Not sure why making an observation about the way a system of theology works - is construed as saying that so-and-so is not really saved.

in Christ,

Bob

Well, some people have a way of seeing what they want to see when they read.

Not one person has come back and showed where I questioned anyone's salvation, BECAUSE I DIDN'T DO THAT.

The person who made a false accusation is the one that should have received an infraction, not me.

 

[preacher4truth]

I called Calvinism into question, I am allowed to do that. But I did not question any person's salvation, you cannot (and you have not) shown this.

Obviously you did and should have. Thanks to whomever gave you an infraction.

I am not stupid, if you could show it, you would have by now.

You cannot see what you've been shown.

So, the charge by RevMitchell that I questioned someone's salvation is completely BOGUS.

He was spot on. This is your objective on BB by the way. You've gotten away with it for so long you're shocked you were finally held accountable.

I showed a quote by R.C. Sproul quoting John Calvin that said a pure life is the PROOF and EVIDENCE of election. The same statement said that this pure life no only shows others you are the elect, it is the foundation for your own assurance and confidence. It also said to WORK to assure yourself.

There is evidence of being born from above (thus these things are with which we examine ourselves as per 2 Cor. 13:5/2Peter 1:10) and not it is not if we prayed a sinners prayer, it is to whether we are in the faith, have been CALLED, and to examine His choosing us (election). There are also fruits of being a false teacher, lost, and an apostate -- 1 & 2 Timothy, 2 Peter, Jude, 1 John, 3 John, the Gospels, 2 Corinthians &c. Non cals don't like to talk about this examination, they would instead point to a time when they prayed a prayer, they also like to talk about the excuse for carnality by using 1 Cor. as an excuse, and the Holy Spirit countered that with 2 Cor. 13:5. Believers are and should always be examining themselves. By the way, 2 Peter 1 also teaches about WORKING after salvation so we will not fall and for a good entrance to be expected, thus Sproul and Calvin are completely biblical. Would you rather they preach a message on be as carnal as you can be, and do nothing, be presumptuous?

Now, how in the world can you deny that noted Calvinists teach that works are the basis of a Calvinist's assurance of salvation?

We don't teach anything close to works salvation, and this is classic you yet again calling our salvation an salvation by works. Put an end to it. You can't see anything when it is plainly shown to you.

This is not questioning your salvation, this is questioning the doctrine of Calvinism.

Nice try. We all know a works based salvation is a false Gospel thus you are in fact questioning salvation. You are most disingenuous here.

I quoted R.C. Sproul and John Calvin and they agree with me!

You misunderstand both of them as you do most everything you read and quote. This is a fact.

I sincerely believe Calvinism teaches a false gospel. According to 1 Corinthians 15:3, Paul preached to the Corinthians that Jesus died for OUR SINS;

We've already established your calling our salvation into question and you do it yet again here.

Calvinists that believe in Limited Atonement do not believe this, they believe Jesus only died for some men, only for the elect. That is not what Paul preached.

Paul did preach this, 2 Timothy 2:8-10. It's biblical and you don't like it.

Paul did not know who was elect when he first preached the gospel to the Corinthians, yet he told every single person there that Jesus died for OUR SINS.

Of course he didn't know who was elect, thus he preached to all -- 2 Timothy 2:8-10

Again, this is pointing out what I believe are serious errors in Calvinism, but I am not questioning anyone's salvation.

You've pointed out absolutely no errors and, yes, you actually are in your accusations questioning salvation.

A person could be saved and yet believe this error. Probably all Christians hold to some error here or there. I am not immune to this.

Now you try to put some icing on your accusations and make pretense that preaching a works Gospel equals salvation. And, you are very far from being immune to error. You have huge and many errors and I hope your eyes will open to this someday, but that is not my job, all I can do is present truth.