Church Music: Traditional or Contemporary?

[evenifigoalone]

I seriously question if any assembly of the CCW folks would stick around very long if they didn't have music to bolster the meeting.

I would like to see a study group comparison. Three churches - one "traditional," one "CCW" and the other a "blend."

Remove the music totally from all three, Folks would hear preaching and pray - only.

Which one after one year showed growth and which one no longer existed would be something that might indicate just how shallow the CCW, traditional, and blend really are.

My own premiss is that most folks wouldn't last and the assemblies be left with a handful if still existing.

The music shouldn't be so much of a deciding factor, true enough.
There are underground churches in countries where Christians are so persecuted for their faith that they can't really sing at all--they just move their mouths like they're singing and don't make any noise so they won't be discovered.
A church is a church, with or without music.

I left my old church this year, but the biggest reason for that was that I didn't care for the emphasis they were puting on legalistic matters, repeating the same things over and over sermon after sermon. (One of them having to do with music.) It got to where it honestly drowned out anything else I could learn there.

To me, THE most important thing about a worship song is the lyrics.
But as far as basically saying you shouldn't be enjoying the music in order for it not to distract from worship, then your safest bet would be no music at all. Because I happen to think piano and organ music to be very enjoyable at times (especially as a pianist), and so do a good deal of people. There are some piano pieces I could seriously lose myself in, and that I love playing.

I love music. I view it as a form of art. And I am an artist, though my talents lie mostly in the visual department.

 

[agedman]

The music shouldn't be so much of a deciding factor, true enough.
There are underground churches in countries where Christians are so persecuted for their faith that they can't really sing at all--they just move their mouths like they're singing and don't make any noise so they won't be discovered.
A church is a church, with or without music.

I agree.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the CCW church emulate the music of the "underground church?" I wonder what would be the impact if for a year they did not have one musical sound made, and only mouthed the words.

I left my old church this year, but the biggest reason for that was that I didn't care for the emphasis they were puting on legalistic matters, repeating the same things over and over sermon after sermon. (One of them having to do with music.) It got to where it honestly drowned out anything else I could learn there.

Welcome to "my world."

"Legalism" outside of the word of God is so much froth. I am thankful that you had a discerning spirit. In this time, I encourage you to spend much time in the Word, and keep a prayer on your lips reflecting the song in your heart.

To me, THE most important thing about a worship song is the lyrics.

As it should be.

But as far as basically saying you shouldn't be enjoying the music in order for it not to distract from worship, then your safest bet would be no music at all. Because I happen to think piano and organ music to be very enjoyable at times (especially as a pianist), and so do a good deal of people. There are some piano pieces I could seriously lose myself in, and that I love playing.

I love music. I view it as a form of art. And I am an artist, though my talents lie mostly in the visual department.

I agree.

I enjoy "good" solid lyric based music, which is why I find much of the typical CCW as so much worthless junk of repeating the phrase ad nauseum.

Do you use any of the Majesty Music piano work - some of their arrangements are awesome.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I actually find that much CCW very relative and often deep--and actually much of it is pulled from scripture. Revelation Song, for instance.
Yeah, you have those bands that make songs where the same phrase is sung over and over. You have those bands who produce songs with some pretty shallow theology.
But then you also have bands like Casting Crowns that definitely don't. Here's a Casting Crowns song, and the God-centeredness of the lyrics in this one are very typical for them.
There really is a ton of variety in CCW and CCM. I find that you can't lump some of the faults that some of them may have with the entire...movement (for lack of better word).

I can see why some would shy away from the "Jesus is my boyfriend" type songs, too. Personally I don't have much problem with them (I just see them differently), but I understand why some do.


Not sure. It's possible I have heard of them or listened to some of their piano arrangements, but I don't know them by name.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's amusing that those who disdain CCM come up with all kinds of illustrations for their reasons and make pretense their opinions and conclusions are akin to Scriptural reasonings.

They're not.

How one has determined they (CCM leaders &c) aren't concerned about being Spirit filled and only concerned about sounding good is utter nonsense and a foolish, baseless judgment and conclusion. It's more a commentary on the accuser than upon the accused. That is taking it way too far and is WAY above one's pay grade.

 

[agedman]

It's amusing that those who disdain CCM come up with all kinds of illustrations for their reasons and make pretense their opinions and conclusions are akin to Scriptural reasonings.

They're not.

How one has determined they (CCM leaders &c) aren't concerned about being Spirit filled and only concerned about sounding good is utter nonsense and a foolish, baseless judgment and conclusion. It's more a commentary on the accuser than upon the accused. That is taking it way too far and is WAY above one's pay grade.

I'm not worried about "pay grade."

I am too old to worry much about the modern church with the music program that is purposely designed to sway emotions far before intellect.

I am far more concerned that the casual believer who reads the BB awaken to the dangers of music.

Music, in particular instrumental music, is not benign or it wouldn't be so effectively used in psychological settings. Nor would it have soothed the "evil spirit sent by God" that plagued Saul.

That "Godly lyrics" are added to the music does not make the music righteous, anymore than some degenerate able to quote the bible.

Many folks can't even understand the lyrics of the writing of Handel's Messiah, but more are enthralled by the music alone.

Few are not moved by Beethoven's 9 (almost 10) symphonies, and who doesn't enjoy listening to his "moonlight sonata."

And even fewer are not moved by "The Unchained Melody."

Music is NOT benign - and folks who are professionals in the field and honest will state they use music and the elements of music to sway people's opinions and desires.

That a supposed "spirit lead" music team is presenting a show does not make the presence of the Holy Spirit anymore real to the believer - considering that the Holy Spirit speaks in a LITTLE CALM voice, as a gentle whisper. And the typical CCW, traditional, or blended church is supposed to actually hear that whisper? They can't be still enough, much less remain silent long enough.

The typical CCW church is as shallow as the typical legalistic "IFB" preaching "not right with God" church, and that is just more gleeful to the enemy of Christ.

As I stated. If the CCW, traditional, or blended church really would desire to see just what the impact of the music has on the assembly, go a year with absolutely NO music. See what and who is left at the end of the year. Try it for just a month!

That is the state of the underground church. A church made up of true believers.

And if the modern church is so "Godly" they should be able to demonstrate it just as the underground church does.

Folks,

I am all for songs, hymns and spiritual songs. No doubt!

I am all for singing. No doubt!

I am all for expressions of gladness, agreement, and praise. No doubt!

I am all for the church taking seriously "making melody IN OUR HEARTS" and not just a handful attracting attention as rock star(lette)s.

I am all for the church not pretending to be serious with worship.

I am for the church BEING an actual place for serious worship.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm not worried about "pay grade."

That's unfortunate because you are talking above yours.

I am too old to worry much...

OK, if you say so. :thumbsup:

I am all for songs, hymns and spiritual songs. No doubt!

No, actually you are not.

I am all for singing. No doubt!

No, actually you are not.

I am all for expressions of gladness, agreement, and praise. No doubt!

All? No, actually you are not.

I am all for the church taking seriously "making melody IN OUR HEARTS" and not just a handful attracting attention as rock star(lette)s.

No...you are only for it if it is music according to YOUR cup of tea. If not, you are against it and accuse others of not being Spirit filled, or of only wanting to sound good. Quite judgmental and subjective. Just like the rest of your arguments.

You make pretense as if YOU know when or when it is not melody IN OUR (another's) HEART.

You don't know this, you simply do not like CCM, nor do you show grace to those who sing it or like it.

I am all for the church not pretending to be serious with worship.

More subjective judgment. You don't know if YOU are pretending nor if OTHERS are at all times, that is the state of human depravity and YOU are NOT above it nor are you set up as THE judge of the intents of others hearts.

I am for the church BEING an actual place for serious worship.

So are the rest of the sheep in spite of their heart problems. You're no maverick here though you attempt to set yourself up on some pedestal as one.

 

[agedman]

Preacher4truth,

You really need to investigate the use of music in therapy, and the stated intent of professional musicians, before you so sloppily try to refute my post.

You ASSUME I am against JUST CCW music, but if you read my post with understanding you would see my statements applied to ALL: Secular and sacred, CCW, Traditional and Blended.

That you are obviously disturbed by my post and center upon only ONE style speaks far more of your bias than of mine.

And as far as any "pedestal," can an idol set up itself?

It is obvious by your own post who has set up an idol on the pedestal.

By your own admission CCM is king.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Actually the psalms mention praising God with a lot of musical instruments and we use the modern equivalents of those instruments in today's music. Drumkits, for example, are more equivalents of cymbals and tambourines. (Psalm 150 talks about praising God on the loud and high sounding cymbals.) Guitars are stringed instruments, including electric guitars. Keyboards imitate many instruments.
What you won't find in the Bible is instructions on what music not to use or listen to. I am not unfamiliar with the list of verses used by some to imply, or even insist, otherwise, but you can apply a verse for just about anything if you take it out of context.

This is a pretty--scratch that--, very! lengthy article, but it covers a lot of ground and makes a lot of excellent points:
http://www.erictb.info/ccm.html

I agree with it's conclusions for the most part.

Personally, for me? Some of my best times spent with God have been with the local Christian radio station blasting praise songs in the background. Does the music define whether it was a good time or not? No, but then you'll just have to take me at my word for that.
And worship is supposed to be emotional, to at least some degree. Even when I used to believe that modern music was wrong, my worship experiences were filled with much emotion.
I have worshiped to both CCM and hymns, and believe me, both was serious worship. Actually, I find that if I'm not in God's will, CCW is likely to get a pass by me...why listen to songs about praising God when I know I'm not His will?
But again, that's personal experience talking, so there's no way to actually prove it to anyone but myself.

My personal conviction is that it is not the style of music that makes it good or bad, but the way in which it is used.
But, that is my personal conviction, and what I've learned. There's no command in the Bible saying everyone needs to have the same opinion on matters such as this.

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher4truth,

You really need to investigate the use of music in therapy, and the stated intent of professional musicians, before you so sloppily try to refute my post.

I have. I've watched documentaries, videos &c too. But your denigration is directed at a style of music and vilify that styles intent (more specifically you vilify the people who sing it, enjoy it). Let's lay the same charge on Southern Gospel. It must also be of the devil too if it is therapeutic. What about a hymn that I sing that gives me therapeutic feelings? How about 'It Is Well With My Soul'? Very worshipful and therapeutic. Is it then of the devil too? Was the writer filled with the Spirit or only concerned with how he sounded? David's Psalms were clearly therapeutic as well, and not only for king Saul.

You ASSUME I am against JUST CCW music, but if you read my post with understanding you would see my statements applied to ALL: Secular and sacred, CCW, Traditional and Blended.

No one has seen what you suggest because you've not used balanced reasoning until now. It's too late and doesn't retro and cover your past statements. Nice try though!

That you are obviously disturbed by my post and center upon only ONE style speaks far more of your bias than of mine.

Disturbed? You mean the rock group? Look agedman, I am not the only one that sees your disdain for CCM and that you are targeting CCM, calling those who sing it not being filled with the Spirit but concerned about how they sound, and you're calling me biased? We use and enjoy some Praise in services and more hymns than Praise.

And as far as any "pedestal," can an idol set up itself?

Not at all. You set yourself there and it is clear to see you stand in great judgment and repudiate many because of your hatred of certain worship music.

It is obvious by your own post who has set up an idol on the pedestal.

Yes, and I hope due to that you recant your accusations of others. It's ridiculous and unfounded blather. We all get it, you disdain CCM and those who sing it as well. This has been clear in this thread.

By your own admission CCM is king.

And you're getting more out of control here and are still on the unfounded and accusatory tirade.

The only CCM that I own is some David Crowder Band. I don't listen to it on the radio, mostly preaching here instead (www.bottradionetwork.com). In fact, when working on some sites some brothers turn on a CCM station. It's not really my cup of tea, some of it is OK, but I don't tune into it, and I certainly am not placing myself high and lofty to judge and condemn the singers/groups and cast doubt on if they are filled with the Spirit. That's your job obviously.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I do not see the question as an either-or problem. I love traditional hymns. I love some of the modern ... that is recently written music. I believe both traditional and modern should be screened for good theology. There is some bad theology in some of the old standby hymns just as there is bad theology in some of the modern hymns.

Use both, but be sure there is good theology in both.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree with you there. I have a preference for A Capella where its just the human voice.

So do I.

My own personal opinion is that the choir and musicians should be moved into the congregation. This would eliminate the tendency for the choir/musicians to put on a performance. It would also eliminate the tendency of the audience, or should I say congregation, to applaud a good performance, a good show, and throw rotten vegetables at a poor performance, figuratively speaking.

An unbeliever with the ability to sing well would receive applause for a solo performance in a worship service but a very devout Christian who sang in a monotone would not even be allowed to sing a solo even if he had nerve enough to try!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So do I.

My own personal opinion is that the choir and musicians should be moved into the congregation. This would eliminate the tendency for the choir/musicians to put on a performance. It would also eliminate the tendency of the audience, or should I say congregation, to applaud a good performance, a good show, and throw rotten vegetables at a poor performance, figuratively speaking.

An unbeliever with the ability to sing well would receive applause for a solo performance in a worship service but a very devout Christian who sang in a monotone would not even be allowed to sing a solo even if he had nerve enough to try!

Agreed! Have you ever participated in or viewed Sacred Harp music performed....it is a growing phenomenon.... even up here in New Jersey.

 

[OldRegular]

Agreed! Have you ever participated in or viewed Sacred Harp music performed....it is a growing phenomenon.... even up here in New Jersey.

Found it on the web. I believe I heard this type music as a boy. Some of my mothers people were Freewill Baptist. I believe they sung this type of music.

My Dad's folks, Old Regular Baptists, lined out their songs and still do as far as I know. I have a couple of CD's of Old Regulars singing. You can also find these on the internet.

In an earlier post you mention some of your ancestors were Welch and Predestinarian Methodists. Sounds almost like an oxymoron but there were such. In fact Martyn Lloyd-Jones, educated as a doctor, but called to be a preacher was of Welch Predestinarian Methodist background. He is, or was, an ardent believer in the Doctrines of Grace. I have his 3 volume set on Doctrine, which is actually a series of sermons he gave in Westminister Chapel in London after WWII. They are written just like he was talking to you, I thoroughly enjoy them!

I am about ready to bow out again. Time just goes by too fast. Hang in there. This Forum needs a "thorn in the flesh" on occasion.

 

[quantumfaith]

For the more traditionally minded, here is my favorite rendition of

"O Come thou fount of every blessing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3NUDV8MbyA

 

[annsni]

For the more traditionally minded, here is my favorite rendition of

"O Come thou fount of every blessing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3NUDV8MbyA

I'm not traditionally minded and that was beautiful!! LOVE it!!!

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm not traditionally minded and that was beautiful!! LOVE it!!!

A word of disclaimer Annisi, should have mentioned it, just forgot. Unless I am mistake, Mr. Cardall is mormon.....for me, he is still a gifted musician, for some it might be detrimental.

BTW: My favorites are Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Casting Crowns

 

[annsni]

A word of disclaimer Annisi, should have mentioned it, just forgot. Unless I am mistake, Mr. Cardall is mormon.....for me, he is still a gifted musician, for some it might be detrimental.

BTW: My favorites are Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Casting Crowns

I also listen to the Ramones who I believe …. were not Christians.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Found it on the web. I believe I heard this type music as a boy. Some of my mothers people were Freewill Baptist. I believe they sung this type of music.

My Dad's folks, Old Regular Baptists, lined out their songs and still do as far as I know. I have a couple of CD's of Old Regulars singing. You can also find these on the internet.

In an earlier post you mention some of your ancestors were Welch and Predestinarian Methodists. Sounds almost like an oxymoron but there were such. In fact Martyn Lloyd-Jones, educated as a doctor, but called to be a preacher was of Welch Predestinarian Methodist background. He is, or was, an ardent believer in the Doctrines of Grace. I have his 3 volume set on Doctrine, which is actually a series of sermons he gave in Westminister Chapel in London after WWII. They are written just like he was talking to you, I thoroughly enjoy them!

I am about ready to bow out again. Time just goes by too fast. Hang in there. This Forum needs a "thorn in the flesh" on occasion.

Brother HB, Here is a excerpt taken from Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
http://www.misterrichardson.com/welshcalmeth.html

Sample of Sacred Harp--See Attached

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtz7ZhEC6U

 

[OldRegular]

Brother HB, Here is a excerpt taken from Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
http://www.misterrichardson.com/welshcalmeth.html

Sample of Sacred Harp--See Attached

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtz7ZhEC6U

Thanks brother for the info. I found a song there my Mom was singing while in the hospital not long before she died: O Sing to Me of Heaven.

My hearing is so bad I have a hard time following a song unless I know the words!

 

[Tom Butler]

I think musical preferences are often a function of our culture and are generational. I'm a septuagenarian, and I still prefer the traditional hymns. I like Southern Gospel and a contemporary chorus here and there. But I definitely am not a CCM kinda guy.

On the other hand, my son is perfectly comfortable with CCM. But then, he likes all kinds of church music.