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Church Music: Traditional or Contemporary?
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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Shout to the Lord
My Redeemer Lives
Mighty To Save
I Can Only Imagine
Remember Me
Behold He Comes
What you have shown is that what I had/have observed.
You reject that observation as accurate or acceptable, but such rejection is no way obliging me to submit to your perspective.
That you can lift out the post in which I made observation and stated my thinking as a result is also no proof to submit that you have a correct perspective on the matter.
The basic statements of the post were:
To state I have been in direct contact with what I posted.
To bring the observation into a perspective of the communication done by the Holy Spirit as recorded by Scripture.
To show how the worship of "the golden calf" was also excess of emotionalism and hype.
To bring an example of the persecuted church testimony and document of what transpired when members were persecuted.
To draw from my observations two things, the doubt of the CCW shallow teaching as preparing believer to sustain much persecution, and the reflection that it was doubtful that many even read the account given.
That others join in on disagreement is nothing unusual about the BB.To bring the observation into a perspective of the communication done by the Holy Spirit as recorded by Scripture.
To show how the worship of "the golden calf" was also excess of emotionalism and hype.
To bring an example of the persecuted church testimony and document of what transpired when members were persecuted.
To draw from my observations two things, the doubt of the CCW shallow teaching as preparing believer to sustain much persecution, and the reflection that it was doubtful that many even read the account given.
That you would use that post as some excuse to attempt to show me as other than being accurate in BOTH Scripture and view is just not righteous.
IF and ONLY IF I made an attack on only CCW or CCM then you might have some room for support.
HOWEVER, because I did not do so, but extended the problem as other posts were made to clarify my view of the matter, and to show why (using both sacred and secular examples) the view is to be applied to ALL the fine arts you most certainly have very little to hang your hat.
Personal attacks? Try a few of these:
- You have serious reading comprehension problems my friend.
- You're ridiculous.
- Not everyone believes your yanked from context scriptures used to support your disdain for others. Yes, for others and for their worship music.
- You've handled the Word here deceitfully (2 Cor. 4:2) in order to support your bias and disdain for CCM and those who sing and like it.
- Then there is this nonsense from you and no shame where there should be shame. You judge those who sing CCM infer they aren't filled with the Spirit, and say they only do it to sound good. So tell me when you got put on a pedestal and throne and were gifted to read hearts and infer upon ones spiritual state something negative because they sing and play music you hate.
You have the Song wrong in this matter.
You have the crowd reaction indicators wrong in this matter.
You have the obvious intent of the performers wrong in this matter.
You have the attack wrong in this matter
And you dare to write unjustly about me claiming 2 Cor. 4:2 and 2 Tim. 2:15.
Although we don't agree, I just want you to know that I very much appreciate the way you reply. You show courtesy, Christ-likeness, and maturity in your responses that is just awesome! God bless you! :thumbs:
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Who here among us has his doctrine straight 100% of the time? No one. So this is naturally going to be the case in Christian doctrine reflected in music as well since it is written by imperfect and not-so-all-knowing man.
One may agree moreso with the teachings of one preacher than he agrees with another, and visa versa. The same is true with bands and the songs they produce, since the band members and dong writers are people, too.
That moving to music is "fleshly" and "sinful" is very much a subjective opinion since it is not dealt with in the Bible.
That, and music from OT times was more rhythmic than melodic itself.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here, but as someone who plays piano, knows music theory, and has friends who play drums, and guitar, (not to mention I've practiced with them for the purpose of playing in church) I can assure you that music produced from those instruments, contemporary or not, is NOT just thrown together haphazardly. You can get sheet music from any song in existence, and there are lots of songs that I personally would love to have the sheet music for. (I've been able to find some online, but not all are publicly available.)
It blows my mind how any musician or song writer, past or present, contemporary or traditional, manages to write music into notes (and/or chords) and make something out of it. I could never do that. The most I can do is play what they come up with.
But as you seem to know a thing or two about music theory perhaps that's not what you meant to imply.
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evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Thanks, brother. I appreciate you telling me so.
I was worried I was coming across too strongly.preacher4truth
Active Member
agedman,
I see it is a losing battle to attempt to get you to admit a passage where God as a consuming fire is in fact for His people. It is plainly in the text od Dt. 9:3. You don't WANT it to be there. You don't WANT to see it because being right is more important than what God's Word actually says. But this is status quo for many today.
Some common ground we have -- yes I do agree that songs should be Scripturally accurate. I believe believers should be as well, but this isn't the case. You have a hatred for CCM and the singers. We all get that. However, you need to be consistent in your hatred as many Hymns are way off theologically and you should attack that as well.
And in all seriousness you should put an end to your personal attacks, broad brushing a music genre as not being spirit filled persons &c, which you have done, and learn to admit to the glaringly obvious evidence that you've done all of this and have dismissed a clear passage out of pride in order to be right. You've failed to prove your case, you've failed after attacking me personally to prove I've done the same. agedman, I hope you can change your course and man up from this point forward and walk in truth instead of deceitfulness.
I see it is a losing battle to attempt to get you to admit a passage where God as a consuming fire is in fact for His people. It is plainly in the text od Dt. 9:3. You don't WANT it to be there. You don't WANT to see it because being right is more important than what God's Word actually says. But this is status quo for many today.
Some common ground we have -- yes I do agree that songs should be Scripturally accurate. I believe believers should be as well, but this isn't the case. You have a hatred for CCM and the singers. We all get that. However, you need to be consistent in your hatred as many Hymns are way off theologically and you should attack that as well.
And in all seriousness you should put an end to your personal attacks, broad brushing a music genre as not being spirit filled persons &c, which you have done, and learn to admit to the glaringly obvious evidence that you've done all of this and have dismissed a clear passage out of pride in order to be right. You've failed to prove your case, you've failed after attacking me personally to prove I've done the same. agedman, I hope you can change your course and man up from this point forward and walk in truth instead of deceitfulness.
Music is not a spiritual gift. Just the over-attention to it, let alone the formation of "praise teams," and other forms of exhibitionism is not a spiritual pursuit.
But it's significant that music was a fully-developed and sophisticated art form in the First Century, yet instruments were excluded from the synagogues and the early church gatherings. Most agree the instruments first came into use through Roman Catholicism.
As to styles: art is thought, and the character of one's thoughts dictates the style of his art. Of that, the Scriptures have much to say.
But it's significant that music was a fully-developed and sophisticated art form in the First Century, yet instruments were excluded from the synagogues and the early church gatherings. Most agree the instruments first came into use through Roman Catholicism.
As to styles: art is thought, and the character of one's thoughts dictates the style of his art. Of that, the Scriptures have much to say.
We use hymns in the service, limited contemporary Bible songs in SS. We have more youth and children than most of the churches around us.
No matter what kind of music you choose, a good test is this:
Send the musicians/leaders/praise team to a hidden choir loft or back of the church out of sight.
If they still show up and bless the service, no "I" problem. If it kills the program, you had human centered "show" and it needed to be killed.
And if the congregation is listening to them but not singing along, you have a problem, Houston.
No matter what kind of music you choose, a good test is this:
Send the musicians/leaders/praise team to a hidden choir loft or back of the church out of sight.
If they still show up and bless the service, no "I" problem. If it kills the program, you had human centered "show" and it needed to be killed.
And if the congregation is listening to them but not singing along, you have a problem, Houston.
I respond to your post not out of a desire to bring you understanding, but so the casual reader might not be mislead into thinking you are presenting factual statements, and not merely opinionated remarks.
I posted the context.
I made bold, underlined, enlarged ... the CONTEXT.
The CONTEXT disagrees with you.
Who is it that is not attending to the truth?
Who is it that holds desperately to a verse that does not apply?
Certainly, you have not read my posts with comprehension or you would see that the statement (above) is highly inaccurate.
Did I not show that the problem is not new?
Did I knot show that ALL music of ALL types are to be held to the same standard?
Perhaps you have assumed what I hate, and that I am inconsistent as an excuse to not address the real issue - avoidance of the truth of the Scriptures.
I'm too old to worry about manliness.
Have I shown the truth from the Scripture? - you refused.
Have I shown the consistency by historical example? - you don't acknowledge it.
Have I shown as much grace and civility in my posts toward you as you have toward me - you don't accept that.
Folks, there is never a time God uses the "Consuming Fire" FOR His people. He uses it against the horribly unredeemed wicked.
The fire of Scriptures used for God's people is the "Refining Fire." We are to embrace it, and be thankful for it, as it removes the dross, molds the form, and tempers the living.
The final "refining fire" will take place at the judgment seat of Christ.
It is unfortunate that some accept what is not Scripturally sound calling it good and right be it in the fine arts, writing or preaching.
I posted the context.
I made bold, underlined, enlarged ... the CONTEXT.
The CONTEXT disagrees with you.
Who is it that is not attending to the truth?
Who is it that holds desperately to a verse that does not apply?
Certainly, you have not read my posts with comprehension or you would see that the statement (above) is highly inaccurate.
Did I not show that the problem is not new?
Did I knot show that ALL music of ALL types are to be held to the same standard?
Perhaps you have assumed what I hate, and that I am inconsistent as an excuse to not address the real issue - avoidance of the truth of the Scriptures.
I'm too old to worry about manliness.
Have I shown the truth from the Scripture? - you refused.
Have I shown the consistency by historical example? - you don't acknowledge it.
Have I shown as much grace and civility in my posts toward you as you have toward me - you don't accept that.
Folks, there is never a time God uses the "Consuming Fire" FOR His people. He uses it against the horribly unredeemed wicked.
The fire of Scriptures used for God's people is the "Refining Fire." We are to embrace it, and be thankful for it, as it removes the dross, molds the form, and tempers the living.
The final "refining fire" will take place at the judgment seat of Christ.
It is unfortunate that some accept what is not Scripturally sound calling it good and right be it in the fine arts, writing or preaching.
I agree.
However, when a doctrinal error is found, it is important that it not be covered up by folks making excuse.
For example: A preacher in doctrinal error is to be held as accountable as any who "preach" (music presentation is dissemination of doctrine, too).
In my post, I never stated movement was sinful. I showed how the music can put the body in motion.
I disagree that music of OT times was more rhythmic than melodic. There is no evidence that such is the case. And what little we have does suggest the opposite - pictures on walls and tombs that display instruments show they were typically melodic in nature not rhythmic.
Your insight into me knowing a thing or two about music, theory, composition, performance, ... is warranted.
Because you are involved, I will give you these thoughts:
John Newton would write his poetry (one per week for the assembly) and they would use popular tunes (music the people already new) to sing the poetry he had written.
Every line John wrote he could show more than one Scripture to validate it.
The same is true of the writing that Philip Bliss did.
I don't have it anymore, but I had a picture of one of his rough drafts and beside each phrase he would list Scriptures that validated that line.
It is also noteworthy that Philip was very concerned with the singing of the camp meetings. He pondered over the excess emotional displays that did not translate into changed lives but were brought on by hype.
John Peterson and Al Smith were not only song writers but students of Scriptures. I do not know a song they wrote in which they could not point to Scriptures as foundational thought. One could poke Al Smith and out would pop a Scripture and a song to go with it.
Andre Crouch is also a student of Scriptures. When I met him back in the very early 70's, he could accurately put Scriptures to every song he had written. His living reflects the statement in Psalm 37: "When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand."
I will stop here with the list for it is unending.
It is enough to encourage you and other song writers to be students of the word. Attend to the purpose of the music as a tool not to manipulate but to communicate. Fanny Crosby is a great example - she regularly would bring her poetry to the poor and destitute, the drunkards, and homeless in the mission houses - I dare say often before they were ever published. She may have had a failed marriage, but she loved the Lord and sought avenues to disseminate the Scriptures in loving words.
Remember, that music is not benign but can and often is used by the enemy in deceitful slight of hand means to communicate half truths and faulty doctrine. Just as he did in Eden.
Keep in mind that music reaches the heart long before the intellect. That the body will respond with movement be it the tapping toe or the sensual undulation, marching or jumping, nodding or hard head shaking often long before the intellect is engaged.
Never neglect the ability, but use it with insight and dedication.
Consistently watch the listener's response. Challenge the spirit to see if it be of God or that of the anti-christ.
Song writing is work. Rare is the writer's writing not done with much labor over each word and note, and often revises and edits before presenting.
I've written far too much, I am sure.
But I wanted those who read this post to be encouraged, teased into looking up the history of some noteworthy writers, and not be "swayed" by having no rudder to at least begin discernment.
I want to make certain and sure that everyone understands that the principle applies to ALL fine arts of ALL styles.
It is never wrong to show right and never right to cover known overt wrong especially be it preaching or fine arts.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Obviously. But just as Christians hold different doctrinal beliefs and have disputes over which is more correct, so do Christians musicians. So it can be rather subjective. The Bible isn't subjective, no, and neither is doctrine. But man's understanding of it tends to be to some degree or another, and even some of my views on doctrine have changed a little over time as I've studied or had scripture taught to me by others. I know people who have different viewpoints on some doctrines and I can still learn from them.
For me, it's been rare when I've ever spotted a doctrinal or possible doctrinal difference in a song that seemed like a major deal. But that's me. Unless it's something major it doesn't bug me much. If I don't agree with it I don't have to listen to it or sing it.
I guess I just see things differently. If someone, a preacher or speaker, says something I don't agree with or am not sure about and it's not something major, I don't go "wha-oh, time to get out of here" or think I need to correct him--I listen to what he has to say and see his it lines up with my knowledge of scripture. And if it doesn't, that's okay, I just don't agree with him on that point.
For example, I've seen the verse in Jeremiah 29:9 (think that's it) used out of context a lot: it's not exactly addressing us here and now, but it's often used as if it is by a lot of people and ministries
But I don't see it as a big deal. It's not something that will change the meaning of the Bible or our faith fundamentally as we know it. And the verse is still true in some context...God doesn't have a bad future in mind for us, after all.
Obviously. But since God created our bodies, what if he made them to respond that way to certain music? Our bodies function a specific way, and I have to seriously doubt that response would have come about through some mutation or something.
Have you ever looked at the instruments mentioned in the psalms? Some are melodic, like the harp, some not are definitely not. (Tambourines, cymbals.)
According to my research, a look at Jewish history did reveal that their music is not melodic in nature. But then even historians will disagree among each other.
I guess we just see this thing differently. I'm not in complete disagreement, but I do have a somewhat different outlook.
Songs should be based on scripture, yes. I heard that song writers pray three times over the songs they write. I cannot verify whether this is true or not.
I know of one band that lists scripture next to their list of lyrics: Disciple. They are a metal/hard rock band, but their songs tend to be as God-centered as bands like Casting Crowns.
It's very possible that other bands do this, but Disciple is the only one I know of that takes the trouble to list them on the lyrics sheet for the public to see.
In any case, I am always checking doctrine in songs. I honestly can't remember the last time I found something to be concerned about. But then I stick around the Baptist/nondenominational scene.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
agedman, I'm really ashamed of your behavior. You've denied you've singled out a music genre and condemned them all. I shared your quote where in fact you did just that. You still continue to deny clear truth. And then you bring in insults. Bro, we all know that is a sign of being proven wrong and losing the battle.
agedman still in denial and still can't admit Deut. 9:3 talks of God as an consuming fire against their enemies and for their benefit (God's people).
He bases his fallacy to realize this attribute of God by saying the attribute is not for God's people and for that fact calls by implication a song heresy, and is thus against singing of this attribute and condemns the following lyrics, and does so to all CCM and their singers (see the first post by agedman in this thread on page 1).
First, exegete Deuteronomy 9:3 and prove the verse is not for God's people, and that He is not 'acting as' a consuming fire for their benefit. You've clearly stated this attribute is not for God's people when it clearly is.
There we have it, God as a consuming fire leading His people. This is a benefit to His people.
Next, here we have the lyrics of the song in question (Consuming Fire - Hillsong) as they sing about this attribute:
Show (more like twist in your methods) Scripture and show us how this song is unscriptural so I can see exactly how you arrive at false conclusions and your methods of arriving there. Stay in the passage I gave and prove that praising this attribute is wrong and as you like to infer 'deceptive and of the devil'.
agedman still in denial and still can't admit Deut. 9:3 talks of God as an consuming fire against their enemies and for their benefit (God's people).
He bases his fallacy to realize this attribute of God by saying the attribute is not for God's people and for that fact calls by implication a song heresy, and is thus against singing of this attribute and condemns the following lyrics, and does so to all CCM and their singers (see the first post by agedman in this thread on page 1).
First, exegete Deuteronomy 9:3 and prove the verse is not for God's people, and that He is not 'acting as' a consuming fire for their benefit. You've clearly stated this attribute is not for God's people when it clearly is.
There we have it, God as a consuming fire leading His people. This is a benefit to His people.
Next, here we have the lyrics of the song in question (Consuming Fire - Hillsong) as they sing about this attribute:
Show (more like twist in your methods) Scripture and show us how this song is unscriptural so I can see exactly how you arrive at false conclusions and your methods of arriving there. Stay in the passage I gave and prove that praising this attribute is wrong and as you like to infer 'deceptive and of the devil'.
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I am obliged to respond to your misrepresentation of Scripture truth.
4 “Do not say in your heart when the Lord your God has driven them out before you, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is dispossessing them before you. 5 It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
6 “Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people.
Preacher,6 “Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people.
I am frankly really sorry that you don't see the Scripture truth, but cling to some fanciful notion when in CONTEXT it is proven invalid.
I have made bold again the parts that state REPEATEDLY God did NOT go before them FOR them when they crossed Jordon.
I have underlined the parts stating that the people were NOT to consider God doing this FOR them.
You openly defying the clear statements of God on this matter is beyond a mere discussion of you no longer being just wrong, but belligerently so, and I have nothing more to offer you on this matter or on this thread.
Blame me all you want, castigate my posting as you desire, for you have that power and right. Others can read and make up their own minds about such.
You will not escape the mishandling of Scriptures as you have on this matter.
I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Scriptural truth you have so badly mangled.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Unreal. Nothing you've addressed above actually addresses or disproves a thing I've said, nor what I've asked you to prove. And you've failed to address not only the verse given, but the lyrics as well.
What you have done is attempt to proof text away verse 3 by misinterpreting the following passage. You fail to see the following verse only are saying HE IS IN FACT DOING THIS FOR HIS PEOPLE BECAUSE OF HIM, NOT BECAUSE OF THEM! We see in this fact alone the Gospel of Grace.
Thus, who is disagreeing with the above? Who brought that into the discussion? It has absolutely NOTHING to dco with your refusal to exegete Dt. 9:3 and prove it isn't for God's people.
Lose your false pretense and false empathy. It is based on nothing and proves not a thing. Your'e the one twisting truth here.
Good for you. Bold, underline, color, highlight all you want. It will never make your false claims truth. :wavey:
BTW, God begs to differ with you and shows clearly He did this for His people:
...a verse you conveniently do not address and leave out since it proves you incorrect. We all know why. You claim God didn't do this for His people by twisting this. He didn't do it BECAUSE of anything IN His people, yet He still did this FOR His people. Yet what you've done is shameful and deceitful handling of the Word on your part.
Ah, here is where you twist things further. He did this for His people and that is clear. You are arguing against this but really arguing about Him not doing it BECAUSE of anything in them. This is how you MUST twist truth here and frankly you do this in a feeble attempt to win and you distort the clear truth.
They were not to consider He did it for them BECAUSE of anything in them but because of His Grace which is why He does things for us now as believers, for example 'unconditionally'. His people STILL benefit from it in this way today. He is not doing a thing for them BECAUSE of anything in them but for Grace.
It is a signification of Grace, and shows Gospel truth, that it is all because of Sovereign grace that He went before them. You are denying this truth and that it is a direct benefit for His people because you fail to see it, and you wrest Scripture in so doing. It is so clear He did this for them, and your argument fails to see that He said He didn't do it because of anything in them.
What you are in fact doing is arguing conditional election in a twisted way.
You're getting out of control again and getting personal. You're angry and losing and resort to this time and again my friend and as you get longer in replies your anger begins to show and you resort to this.
Oh, self-martyring? I have shown you time and again the fact you castigate a genre of music (CCM in which I am not that big a fan) and have shown your quote, and you still deny your words.
You're dreaming. All you've done is twist what I've stated. God as a consuming fire is for His people, not because of them, but because of Him. This you fail to see.
Bro, it is actually sad that you conclude this when it is clear you've twisted things all along because somehow you have come to hate those who sing CCM and have judged them severely inferring many things upon them, and even act as if you know their hearts, motives and if they are filled.
Let's put it like this for you agedman and maybe you'll get it: He IS in fact doing it FOR them but in SPITE of them, and you've stated all along that HE is not that (a consuming fire) for His people when He in fact is, and then you went on a tirade against a song. You really need to get some grace toward others and stop condemning genres, peoples and lose your personal attacks.
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Traditional. Contemporary. Traditional! Contemporary! TRADITIONAL! CONTEMPORARY!
ENOUGH!!!! This is such an idiotic, "God likes my music more than your music", self-centered argument. Those who claim supremacy of one form of music are as wrong as David's wife who scorned his heart-felt worship of God, no matter which side of the argument they fall on. Let's just all worship God as our hearts are moved & stop playing god by telling others how they should worship our Savior. :tonofbricks::BangHead:
ENOUGH!!!! This is such an idiotic, "God likes my music more than your music", self-centered argument. Those who claim supremacy of one form of music are as wrong as David's wife who scorned his heart-felt worship of God, no matter which side of the argument they fall on. Let's just all worship God as our hearts are moved & stop playing god by telling others how they should worship our Savior. :tonofbricks::BangHead:
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
I apologize. I never intended to come across as telling others what to do. I honestly don't care what they prefer or listen to.
Uh, God DOES like my music better, and I'm not joking. I know what music is, and you don't, and I know what he has said about it. :type:
I don't care, but most contemporary music sounds effeminate to me. Guys sound very girly and I think most red blooded men feel uncomfortable in a service where some guy in skinny jeans is moaning into a microphone and sounds like he is trying to make girly love with Jesus.
Well... you asked what I thought. That's it. Don't shoot me for being honest.
I was responding to the general argument, not to you in particular.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Okay. Just wanted to be sure. ^^;
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