Behold I STAND at the door and Knock Rev 3

[HankD]

The immediate context is that Jesus said "if ANY MAN hear my voice".

The immediate context is that Jesus said "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

Now, if Jesus was only speaking to this church, then why did he tell others to hear what he is saying to the churches?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I've got an ear, in fact, I have two. So Jesus said I should listen to what he says to the churches. That includes Rev 3:20 that says Jesus stands at the door and knocks, if any man hear his voice and open the door, he would come in to that person.

I heard, and I opened the door.

Amen winman.

HankD

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I've got an ear, in fact, I have two. r.

Amen!

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

So the question - how is it that Calvinists are so disappointed to find this out - as if joy and peace depends on fighting against this clear Bible truth at all costs to logic and exegesis??

 

[The Biblicist]

Amen!

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

No matter how many people you can claim for your false interpretations, no matter how many RUN JUMP and PIT tactics you may use, the fact remains that Revleation 3:20 is first placed in the immediate context of verse 19 which introduces it and second within the immediate context of the letter to a specific congregation with specific problems UNLIKE the other congregations and letters to the other congregations. Proper hermeneutics demands you start in the nearest immediate context and NONE OF YOU are doing this. Chastening is not for lost people and Jesus is not addressing the lost but disobedient saved who have shut Christ out of their congegational services as a congregation and as individual members thereof. No amount of eisgetical irrational commentary can overturn that IMMEDIATE context.

 

[BobRyan]

Biblicist your argument has died several places in Rev 3 -but most recently and most impressively with Winman's reference to "Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." taken right from the message to the 7th church.

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 disciples yet applied to all --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

This point will be forever linked to the discussion on Rev 3 as we both know.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist your argument has died several places in Rev 3 -but most recently and most impressively with Winman's reference to "Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." taken right from the message to the 7th church.

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 disciples yet applied to all --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

This point will be forever linked to the discussion on Rev 3 as we both know.

Anyone can prove anything by the way you two handle the scriptures as you simply and consistently RUN away from context, JUMP to another context and then PIT one text against another. This is the modus operandi of both of you and your system of theologies.

Nothing you can say, no running, no jumping, no pitting, can change the fact that Revelation 3:19 introduces 3:20 and discipline/chastening is ONLY for children of God and NEVER for lost people. The threat of Chastening is in verse 19 the way to avoid it is in verse 20. Sin separates fellowship between God's children and Christ and that is the meaning of verse 20 interpreted in light of verse 19. Nothing you can say will change that contextual fact.

 

[OldRegular]

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The basis of Bob's whole argument is the falsehood that there are only two types of people in the world - lost or saved. These letters deal with a third type - the disobedient saved. Note verse 19! Chastening is not for lost people nor is it for faithful saved people. It is for disobedient saved people (Heb. 12:5-10).

Second, this is addressed to the specific congregation at Laodicia and this isthe condition of the WHOLE CONGREGATION and it is applicable to all congregations that fall into this condition.

Third, When a CONGREGATION of SAVED PEOPLE are in a condition they need chastening AS A CONGREGATION, they have shut Christ out of their FELLOWSHIP.

For those who understand the basics of salvation you already realize that you can be SAVED and yet not in FELLOWSHIP with Christ and that is why chastening occurs. Note that who Christ addresses is not only the congregation as a whole in this letter but it is those whom he "LOVES" and is going to chasten (v. 19) Because they have DISFELLOWSHIPPED Christ, placed him outside the congregation in regard to FELLOWSHIP as one cannot fellowship with sin and fellowship with Christ at one and the same time.

Following are some remarks that I made regarding the passage under discussion in a study of the Book of Revelation. I believe they are in general agreement with your understanding of the passage in the OP.

The spiritual condition of the church at Laodicea was worse than that at Sardis. Even the church at Sardis which the Lord spoke of as dead had a few names ... which have not defiled their garments . There was not even this limited praise for those at Laodicea. In their pride filled contentment, the church at Laodicea thought they were spiritually rich but the Lord says thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

The fate of the church at Laodicea is apparently sealed. The other churches [Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, and Smyrna] that were reprimanded by the Lord were commanded to repent to avoid judgment. However, there is no such promise to the church at Laodicea as a whole. Rather the Lord is brief: I will spue thee out of my mouth. However, the infinite grace of God is manifest in the exhortation of the Saviour:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. The chastening if the Lord in the event of sin in the life of the believer is evidence that conversion has occurred. The letter to the Hebrews is very blunt in addressing this problem, as follows:

Hebrews 12:4-8, KJV
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

In discussing this last part of the letters to the seven churches it is well to keep in mind that the Lord is talking to the Church, those who have been truly redeemed to God. Although the local church may indeed include unregenerate people in its membership, these can in no way be considered a legitimate part of the ekklesia, the ones called out.

The letter to the churches concludes with a promise to the few who believe.

Revelation 3:19-22, KJV
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise[] is only to the regenerate members who constitute the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].​

 

[The Biblicist]

Following are some remarks that I made regarding the passage under discussion in a study of the Book of Revelation. I believe they are in general agreement with your understanding of the passage in the OP.

The spiritual condition of the church at Laodicea was worse than that at Sardis. Even the church at Sardis which the Lord spoke of as dead had a few names ... which have not defiled their garments . There was not even this limited praise for those at Laodicea. In their pride filled contentment, the church at Laodicea thought they were spiritually rich but the Lord says thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

The fate of the church at Laodicea is apparently sealed. The other churches [Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, and Smyrna] that were reprimanded by the Lord were commanded to repent to avoid judgment. However, there is no such promise to the church at Laodicea as a whole. Rather the Lord is brief: I will spue thee out of my mouth. However, the infinite grace of God is manifest in the exhortation of the Saviour:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. The chastening if the Lord in the event of sin in the life of the believer is evidence that conversion has occurred. The letter to the Hebrews is very blunt in addressing this problem, as follows:

Hebrews 12:4-8, KJV
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

In discussing this last part of the letters to the seven churches it is well to keep in mind that the Lord is talking to the Church, those who have been truly redeemed to God. Although the local church may indeed include unregenerate people in its membership, these can in no way be considered a legitimate part of the ekklesia, the ones called out.

The letter to the churches concludes with a promise to the few who believe.

Revelation 3:19-22, KJV
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise[] is only to the regenerate members who constitute the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].​

Very well stated and true to context:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Anyone can prove anything by the way you two handle the scriptures as you simply and consistently RUN away from context, JUMP to another context and then PIT one text against another. This is the modus operandi of both of you and your system of theologies.

Nothing you can say, no running, no jumping, no pitting, can change the fact that Revelation 3:19 introduces 3:20 and discipline/chastening is ONLY for children of God and NEVER for lost people. The threat of Chastening is in verse 19 the way to avoid it is in verse 20. Sin separates fellowship between God's children and Christ and that is the meaning of verse 20 interpreted in light of verse 19. Nothing you can say will change that contextual fact.

Coming from a guy who proof-texts Isa 48:8 in his signature and claims it proves men are born sinners, when it is speaking about the children of Israel only. :laugh:

But you would exclude Rev 3:22 that says he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, which refers directly to Rev 3:20.

Yeah, you are a real scholar.

 

[HankD]

Though winman and I disagree here and there, I'll still give him an Amen on his post concerning Revelation 3:20.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Amen winman.

HankD

Strange! I had thought about using the same verses of Scripture to show that you, Winman, and Ryan are wrong about Revelation 3:20. You can't interpret 3:20 without considering 3:19 and 3:21.

God rebukes and chastens those whom He loves but who are are disobedient {3:19}.

Those who overcome can only refer to believers {3:21}. Note that Jesus Christ says: even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Meaning little or nothing to an unbeliever!

 

[The Biblicist]

Though winman and I disagree here and there, I'll still give him an Amen on his post concerning Revelation 3:20.

HankD

You have nothing to base your "amen" on other than his ridicule as that is all that he has to base his intepretation upon. None of you have even dealt with the contextual problem of verse 19 and its relationship to verse 20. Bob and Winman have played the RUN from the issue of verse 19, JUMP to texts in other contexts and then played the PIT game. What is sad, is the evidence has been placed squarely in front of your face but you love a lie so much that you don't care what you have to do or say to defend it. That is sad!

NONE OF YOU CAN DENY THAT VERSE 19 is directed solely to saved persons as God does not chastise lost persons but only His children. Chastening is for children who have sin in their lives that SEPARATE them from sweet fellowship with God and NONE OF YOU CAN DENY that type of broken fellowship is precisely what verse 20 is designed to reestablish. So simple, so clear and so obvious.

 

[OldRegular]

You have nothing to base your "amen" on other than his ridicule as that is all that he has to base his intepretation upon. None of you have even dealt with the contextual problem of verse 19 and its relationship to verse 20. Bob and Winman have played the RUN from the issue of verse 19, JUMP to texts in other contexts and then played the PIT game. What is sad, is the evidence has been placed squarely in front of your face but you love a lie so much that you don't care what you have to do or say to defend it. That is sad!

NONE OF YOU CAN DENY THAT VERSE 19 is directed solely to saved persons as God does not chastise lost persons but only His children. Chastening is for children who have sin in their lives that SEPARATE them from sweet fellowship with God and NONE OF YOU CAN DENY that type of broken fellowship is precisely what verse 20 is designed to reestablish. So simple, so clear and so obvious.

Well said!

 

[Winman]

Strange! I had thought about using the same verses of Scripture to show that you, Winman, and Ryan are wrong about Revelation 3:20. You can't interpret 3:20 without considering 3:19 and 3:21.

God rebukes and chastens those whom He loves but who are are disobedient {3:19}.

Those who overcome can only refer to believers {3:21}. Note that Jesus Christ says: even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Meaning little or nothing to an unbeliever!

Strange! I thought the term "If ANY MAN hear my voice" applied to 100% of men.

But then I remembered you and others are Calvinists/Reformed/DoG and that you have a completely different set of definitions for words. The word "all" to you means a limited few.

You see, when Jesus said "If ANY MAN hear my voice" he began to speak to all men, not just members of this particular church.

And when Jesus said, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" he was also speaking to all men, not just members of this particular church.

 

[Winman]

You have nothing to base your "amen" on other than his ridicule as that is all that he has to base his intepretation upon. None of you have even dealt with the contextual problem of verse 19 and its relationship to verse 20. Bob and Winman have played the RUN from the issue of verse 19, JUMP to texts in other contexts and then played the PIT game. What is sad, is the evidence has been placed squarely in front of your face but you love a lie so much that you don't care what you have to do or say to defend it. That is sad!

NONE OF YOU CAN DENY THAT VERSE 19 is directed solely to saved persons as God does not chastise lost persons but only His children. Chastening is for children who have sin in their lives that SEPARATE them from sweet fellowship with God and NONE OF YOU CAN DENY that type of broken fellowship is precisely what verse 20 is designed to reestablish. So simple, so clear and so obvious.

This is how Biblicist debates. If you do not agree with him then you are a liar or you "love a lie".

He also does not seem to know what the term ANY MAN means.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is how Biblicist debates. If you do not agree with him then you are a liar or you "love a lie".

What you have taught has been proven to be a llie - untruth - false and the evidence has been placed squarely before you and STILL YOU IGNORE IT.

He also does not seem to know what the term ANY MAN means.

The truth is that it is you that does not know what "any man" means. Have you ever heard of a little thing called "context"???? In other words the words "any man" CANNOT refer to all men without exceptions but only all men who fit the condition described in verse 20. Not "every man" in the world fits that condition.

Second, "any man" not only is limited to those who have shut Christ out of their life but to those whom the Lord loveth in the sense of divine chastening (v. 19).

Third, your general approach to scripture is a cut and paste kind of mentality that is designed simply to prove your own preassumptions rather than attempting objective honest Bible intepretation.

 

[BobRyan]

Biblicist your argument has died several places in Rev 3 -but most recently and most impressively with Winman's reference to "Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." taken right from the message to the 7th church.

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 disciples yet applied to all --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

This point will be forever linked to the discussion on Rev 3 as we both know.

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.

​

You are using circular reasoning by assuming the salient point of the Calvinist argument rather than showing that it is true.

By contrast to your assumption above that God only loves true believers - we have ..

"God so Loved the WORLD that He gave" John 3:16.

You then argue the "whom I love I rebuke" statement in Rev 3 as if God had said "I only love those who are now true believers" - -- when in fact that idea is only found in Calvinism - not the Bible.

Thus the proof of your own position is a circular reference back to a tenant of Calvinism not found in the Bible.


=========================

meanwhile --


Biblicist your argument has died several places in Rev 3 -but most recently and most impressively with Winman's reference to "Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." taken right from the message to the 7th church.

And of course John 17 spoken to the 12 disciples yet applied to all --

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

This point that the text applies to all -- will be forever linked to the discussion on Rev 3 as we both know.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
hence statements like the ones we find in Rev 3 by the same author that is writing in John 6 - also quoting the teaching of Christ.

"I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1




in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Strange! I thought the term "If ANY MAN hear my voice" applied to 100% of men.

.

As you noted earlier - it applies to "He who has an ear let him hear".

And as John 17 points out the words of Christ applies to "all who would believe through their word".

That is - all may come to Christ, and truly "if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" describes a pure Arminian process.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[psalms109:31]

In time it is God speaking to believers to reach out because if anyman turns to God through Jesus Christ they will be saved. It is actually telling the church to reach out where men turn it into what they want to use it for why we know outside of time God knows all who will be saved. Men think they can see as God does living in time. God is using His church to reach the world and whoever out of it repents turn to God through Jesus Christ will be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

God "knows all". That is beyond all doubt.

But God presents His Gospel as an APPEAL "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

God does not present it as a matter of "programming" as in "I have programmed some of you to reject the Gospel and others to accept. Do not give it a second thought because I have already worked out all the details. If you happen to be one of those who is IN - well then be glad for YOU -- after all I could have programmed you the way I programmed the others".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[psalms109:31]

God "knows all". That is beyond all doubt.

But God presents His Gospel as an APPEAL "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

God does not present it as a matter of "programming" as in "I have programmed some of you to reject the Gospel and others to accept. Do not give it a second thought because I have already worked out all the details. If you happen to be one of those who is IN - well then be glad for YOU -- after all I could have programmed you the way I programmed the others".

in Christ,

Bob

It is an appeal not a programing. I do believe God does not want any to die, but rather them to repent and live. We cannot force anyone to listen and learn if they do not they will die in their sins. They will never turn to Christ if they don't listen and learn.

I do believe God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but not everyone will to be saved. If they don't listen and learn some times it is best to wipe your feet off and move on. In forum like this we don't have to.