:thumbs::thumbs:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Behold I STAND at the door and Knock Rev 3
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
- Status
junk...nothing scholarly
Last edited by a moderator:
Right here;
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
It was after hearing Peter preach and BELIEVING the gospel that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit.
I have never claimed or pretended to be a scholar, I am a very simple person who understands the scriptures for what they simply and plainly say.
Salvation here DOES NOT include baptism, but belief only. Those who believe shall be saved, those who do not believe shall be damned. Notice the second half of the verse does not mention baptism.
This is simply saying a person who does not live a godly life will suffer the loss of rewards, but they will still be saved. This is not another salvation.
This is speaking of the tribulation and those who do not deny Jesus.
This is a difficult verse, but most believe it is saying that while a woman must live in subjection to her husband, she is not inferior, as the Messiah shall come (or rather, did come) through the woman through childbearing. In this sense we were all "saved through childbearing".
I think you meant 1 Pet 3:20. This is simply speaking of Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives not perishing in the flood. This is not speaking of eternal salvation at all.
Last edited by a moderator:
I can see that...your a face value type of guy. As a Roman Catholic, I was too and every thing was ok with the world. I could lie, cheat and steal and then go to mass and say a good act of contrition prayer and I was absolved of my sins for that week. I had it made...I was in control. Matter of fact, most around here are Roman Catholics...its an easy religion if you want a sinfilled life...one where you can say some Act of Contrition and poof, like magic your sins are forgiven.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well I would answer this as an Arminian - and Winman as a non-Cal.
The Arminian position has no place for traditions like OSAS so in all of those cases God is showing that Salvation is a state where the born-again saved Christian perseveres in obedience to God even if at times they fall into sin. "These things I write to you that you sin not but if anyone does sin we have an Advocate with the Father" who of course performs that role as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary seated at the right hand of the Father according to Heb 8:1-5.
It like the 1Cor 9 concept of the olympic hopeful who is training. Saved is not a deferred concept only but a present reality in the one who is training, who as Matt 10 points out - continues to "persevere" even under stress. Matt 10:22
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."
1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
Should they reject that choice and choose not to train they are no longer in the race, they will have "fallen FROM grace and been severed FROM Christ" Gal 5:
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 NASB.
Thus the message in Rev 3 is to those who are lost, whom God loves, who are naked - and found to be without the robe of Christ's righteousness even if at one time they were saved.
And that is why Christ is consistent when HE expands the SCOPE of the application "to him who has an ear" application by Christ in Rev 3 - is to all who are lost in that same condition unclothed, without the robe of Christ's righteousness.
In Rev 3 it matters not how they entered the lost state of being found without the robe of Christ's righteousness - the point is that they are lost. They do not have "Christ IN you the hope of Glory" and frankly there is no such thing as "Christless salvation".
Christ is on the OUTSIDE in Rev 3 knocking and ONLY in the case of the one who hears AND opens the door is salvation the result according to the text -- the state where Christ enters the soul.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is interesting that in Acts 10 Peter said to the gentiles gathered in that meeting at Cornelius' house...
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Not "whoever God arbitrarily selects out to zap or re-program, or pre-program".
Futhermore it says
36 ..The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things
So Cornelius did have some knowledge of Christ already.
in Christ,
Bob
Lets be honest here a minute Bob...if. you are fallen from Gods grace....then you never really had it to begin with.
This is a personal question for you that you don't have to answer but ive noted you do know allot about RC Cannon law. Could you at one time have been an RC? Again you don't have to answer however that would explain much...to me at least as I was raised up as one. And RC 's will tell youyou can fall from grace...just say a good Act of Contrition and your back however.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is circular reasoning.
It would be like saying
"if someone steals your car than you never had a car to steal"
"if you throw away your money then you never had any money to throw away"
"If a child chooses rebellion and runs away from home then they never had a home to run away from"
-- it makes no sense and the Arminian position is free to notice that "detail" when it comes to forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 and to "Severed From Christ... fallen From Grace" Gal 5:4
The alternative is to suppose that the Bible writers are complaining that the "lost" have become "lostER" and use circular reasoning to make their case. And I think that many people will see that as a difficult logical contortion even if they are not Arminian.
How is that supposed to be compelling?
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There a number of groups like Methodists, Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists that take the Arminian position. They do not have to first be RC to do this and I think we both would agree on this point.
But as for Romans 11 "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief" -- well I accept that as well but I did not have to first be Catholic to accept it.
in Christ,
Bob
To one on the outside it is circular reasoning.
But to the one that has eternal life he knows it is not circular for he has eternal life and it cannot be lost for then it would not be eternal but only temporary, and consequently it would make Christ a liar; "for I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish."
Therefore, for a person in your position, to say the things you say, we conclude: "you never had it in the first place." That is from our perspective.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
Ok - that is another example of the circular reasoning that I was complaining about. You merely assume the salient point of your posiiton in Gal 5:4 instead of demonstrating that it survives the text. You "assume" that 'by definition" eternal life means OSAS.. .when in fact that this the supposition that needs to be proven - not merely assumed and then referenced back to as "proof" of itself.
The Matt 10:22 text that Biblicist mentioned comes to mind.
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Have you ever studied this verse carefully, or just use it as a proof text?
Paul is using it as a hypothetical.
Look carefully: "whosoever of you are (Lit. would be) justified by the law"
It is impossible to be justified by the law. This is a hypothetical. Over and over again Paul has taught that we are not justified by the law, but by faith.
Rom.5:1 Therefore being justified by FAITH we have peace with God.
One cannot be justified by the law.
Hypothetically, if it were possible to by justified by the law, you would be fallen, you wouldn't be saved. Why? You would have never been saved in the first place, obviously because one is saved by faith and that not of the law. For the law condemns.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Bible writers are not devoting themselves to fiction in Gal 5:4, Romans 11, Matt 18, John 15:1-8 etc and warning of an impossible risk, warning the saints about an impossible consequence an impossible danger.
That is the first point that almost everyone has to agree with to deal with forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 and to "Severed From Christ... fallen From Grace" Gal 5:4 (NASB)
Paul says that the dangers are real in Galatia and there are those fully bought into this idea of works-salvation apart from faith. The problem is not fictional for Paul and the dangerous result that the problem will result in for those who choose that path are not presented as fictional impossibilities by Paul - not even in Gal 5:4.
Thus whether you take the Rev 3 case of those who are "naked" and without the robe of Christ's righteousness to be saints that have lost salvation - or members of the church who never had salvation - the universal invitation of Christ "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in" is the offer of salvation to ALL to "HE who has an EAR" Rev 3:22. I think we both know this.
in Christ,
Bob
That is the first point that almost everyone has to agree with to deal with forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 and to "Severed From Christ... fallen From Grace" Gal 5:4 (NASB)
Paul says that the dangers are real in Galatia and there are those fully bought into this idea of works-salvation apart from faith. The problem is not fictional for Paul and the dangerous result that the problem will result in for those who choose that path are not presented as fictional impossibilities by Paul - not even in Gal 5:4.
Thus whether you take the Rev 3 case of those who are "naked" and without the robe of Christ's righteousness to be saints that have lost salvation - or members of the church who never had salvation - the universal invitation of Christ "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in" is the offer of salvation to ALL to "HE who has an EAR" Rev 3:22. I think we both know this.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
You really don't get it do you?
It is impossible for a person to be justified by the law. It is that simple, and a truth that is stressed over and over and over again.
Both know what?
Revelation 3:20 is addressed to the pastor of a church, and thus the church as a whole. Churches are composed of believers, the saints in Christ. Therefore the verse has nothing to do with salvation. It is speaking of believers having communion and fellowship with Christ. That the verse is either misused or applied in a way it shouldn't be does not mean that it has a literal meaning different than what I just gave you.
There is no proof text here of losing one's salvation.
There is no text here that offers salvation.
I can hardly believe that we are still debating Revelation 3:22? You have not addressed the evidence placd before you yet! You ignore it and simply reassert fiction.
1. "Anyone" is within the context of the addressees - the seven churches - which totally excludes the lost world
2. "anyone" is within the context of those being chastened - v. 19 which totally excludes the lost world
3. "anyone" is within the context of those who have shut out Christ - v. 20 and are being threatened with chastisement - v. 19
The very word you are using "Anyone" is not isolated but found in context of the addressees "The Spirit saith to the churches" not to the world!!!!
The lost world is NEVER ONCE addressed in any of these letters. The lost world cannot enter into these congregations and fix any of these problems.
You are FORCING your interpretation into a plainly declared context.
There is no fiction in Galatian 5:4. You just are mishandling the context. From Galatians 1:6-9 forward the language makes it clear that they had departed from the THEOLOGICAL position of grace through false teaching (Gal. 3:1) not that they were departing from their SPIRITUAL position of grace. This is a departing from the teaching of grace in the mind due to false teaching.
Note the warnings all the way from the beginning of the epistle to Galatians 5:4 is about embracing false TEACHING and rejecting theological TRUTH:
1. "pervert" the gospel - Gal. 1:7
2. "PREACH" another gospel - Gal. 1:8-9
3. Who hath "BEWITCHED" you - Gal. 3:1
4. "hinder" you - Gal. 4:7
Paul even gives Peter and Barnabas as an examples of those who like them were temporarily led astray by theological error and needed to be rebuked - Gal. 2:11-13. Was Peter and Barnabas saved, then lost and resaved???
Last edited by a moderator:
Galatians 5:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
So whats Paul saying here..... he is saying if the believers allow themselves to be seduced by false teaching, they will be led away from grace into legalism. This isn't the same thing as saying that they will loose their salvation though the doctrine of legalists was indeed a false doctrine by which nobody could be saved. Paul's argument is that the Galatians Christians should stand firm in the liberty Christ has given them & not become "Burdened again by the yoke of slavery" (Gal. 5:1)
King James Version (KJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
So whats Paul saying here..... he is saying if the believers allow themselves to be seduced by false teaching, they will be led away from grace into legalism. This isn't the same thing as saying that they will loose their salvation though the doctrine of legalists was indeed a false doctrine by which nobody could be saved. Paul's argument is that the Galatians Christians should stand firm in the liberty Christ has given them & not become "Burdened again by the yoke of slavery" (Gal. 5:1)
I think you can include Lutherans too, but that wasnt my reason for asking. As with any Arminian group, the efficacy of the atonement does not rest on Christ's saving work alone but also on the sinners faith and repentance. A RC believes that they must also inculcate himself into God's ways in-order to gain salvation. So although God's grace is attractive, it is not powerful enough to triumph over those who stubbornly refuse Him.
And now onto the next ..... whether or not a Christian will persevere to the very end is open to question, because perseverance ultimately depends on the Christian rather than on Christ. NO THANKS...... been there with the RC & done that. Human beings are sinful & they cannot determine their own spiritual destinies (not w/o screwing it up). And Im proof of that big-time.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status