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Featured Arminianism is not universalism because of Lev 16

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Nov 13, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The blood of Christ provides the Lev 16:15 "sin offering" or as John says in 1John 2:2 the "atoning Sacrifice" (completed once for all at the cross).

    However simply speaking about yourself as if you were writing scripture is not a funny sort of substitute for actual sola scriptura testing of all doctrine, faith and practice.

    For that we must go to the actual Bible. Bible-ish words placed in substitute - do not measure up.

    And in the reason that 1John 2:2 is not a formula for "universalism" is because of God's own teaching on the subject of Atonement in the "Day of Atonement" - telling us that the work of Christ as our High Priest in Hebrews 8 and 9 is not to be ignored as if doing so is "Being faithful to the Cross" or even "to Christ".

    Rather this is where God points us to an unlimited non-discriminating "atoning Sacrifice" at the cross - but a very personal - case-by-case application of that Atoning Sacrifice (completed once for all at the cross)
    that is the focus of Christ's work as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary of Hebrews 8:1-5.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Nov 15, 2013
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hint: Hebrews 10 never mentions the "The Day of Atonement" as we all know.

    But the work of Christ as our High Priest begins with the daily service as we see in Hebrews 7:27 and also the Day of Atonement service. The High Priest worked in both roles - but in the case of Christ it is a "once for all sacrifice" at the cross.

    Every sacrifice in the Levitcal system has its fulfillment in Christ,

    Christ as High Priest performs both the daily service -- the precedes the Day of Atonement according to God in Lev 16 -- and also the year-end "Day of Atonement" service that deals with all sins confessed and brought before the Lord during the daily service.

    That is God's model - as much as Calvinism "needs" at times to "ignore the details".

    And it is why the Arminian text of 1John 2:2 does not result in universalism.

    You are making your case with 'harrumph" not with the Bible. But that is not a solid substitute for Bible support of your speculation and meandering.

    It has already been pointed out to you Heb 8:1-3 that Christ is doing His work "seated" as a minister - as our High Priest.

    Heb 8
    The New Priestly Service

    8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seatedat the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
    3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

    Not "he used to be a Mediator but is now seated".

    Not "He used to be our High Priest a Minister in the sanctuary - but now no longer Ministering - rather seated and waiting" as the much expected Calvinist speculation would have it - since then they might get "universalism' out of 1John 2:2 from anyone failing to notice that the High Priest's work continues on for us in Heb 8:1-3 rather than ended before Heb 8:1-3 - in the sanctuary above.


    Even in Zech 6 the model is given of Priest and King - ruling on his throne - seated and doing the work as Priest.

    What? A priest SEATED - on His throne who "sits and rules" as both Priest and King? Really? -- yes really! Christ our High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary of God.

    Zech 6
    12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
    13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."


    This individual work of Christ as our High Priest - is why there is no universalism in the unlimited nondiscriminating "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World" 1John 2:2 NIV.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #22 BobRyan, Nov 15, 2013
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  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Those who care about "Bible details" are free to look for the supposed appeal to "Daniel 8" by me on this thread - not sure that you will find one.

    But having said that - I myself would not assign the Word of God to the status of pig. No not even in Daniel 8.

    But that may "just be me" in my discussion with Biblicist. He is free to do as he likes - he has free will.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Nov 15, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Back to the same level of deception! I never attributed "pig" to scripture but to the false SDA doctrine of the investigative judgement based on SDA interpretation of Daniel 8! But you knew that and intentionally perverted my words which manifests the same "spirit of error" behind the false prophetess that is behind SDA.
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Nov 15, 2013
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is like arguing that John 1:1 never mentions the "trinity" as we all know, but the text cannot be properly translated and interpreted without teaching the trinity and neither can Hebrews 10 be properly interpreted apart from direct application to the day of atonement.

    1. Note the sacrifice for remission of sins in view is not that which occurred "every day" but "every year" and that is the day of atonement:

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.


    2. Just as the day of atonement occurred but ONCE every year so the offering of Christ was ONCE sacificed for sins FOREVER:

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    3. Just as the High Preist could enter beyond the veil only ONCE A YEAR on the day of atonement the ONCE sacrifice of Christ pentrated the veil into the holiest of holies:

    19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    4. This NEVER occurred in the daily sacrifices. The High Preist NEVER sat down during the daily or once a year sacrifices because what was SYMBOLIZED as a completed act on the day of atonement was NEVER LITERALLY FINISHED as only the LITERAL and ACTUAL fulfillment of the SYMBOLISM could make the symbolic work cease. Thus the priests who provides only the SYMBOLISM by their work COULD NEVER BE SEATED as only the LITERAL could replace and put a stop to the SYMBOLIC. However, when Jesus offered himself up as our Great High Priest the before symbolic completed act was FINISHED forever, sanctifying the elect forever and ONCE FOR ALL. The Priests in doing the SYMBOLISM could never be seated because the symbols NEVER LITERALLY FINISHED anything.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    The atonement is FINISHED and Christ as our High Preist is not doing the work of atonement in heaven. What he is doing in Heaven is simply APPLYING THE FINISHED WORK to the elect as they are born and live in this world.
     
    #25 The Biblicist, Nov 15, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are off on a wild rant about Dan 8 and "pigs" - without any justification for it on this thread. I have not posted any argument from Dan 8.

    You can keep digging that whole deeper if you wish - you do have free will to keep doing that.

    But don't expect to get a lot of support for it from me.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Nov 16, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have repeated numerous times the claim that the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 NIV - was completed once for all at the cross.

    But God's full model for atonement in Lev 16 does not end with the sin offering (or Atoning Sacrifice) in Lev 16:15 - but rather it continues to include ALL the work of the High Priest in the sanctuary on the "Day of Atonement".

    There is no "seated so not doing the work of High Priest" or "ministry as High Priest" in the sanctuary in heaven - in either Heb 8 or 9 or 10.



    Heb 10 deals only with once for all sacrifice completed at the cross. It does not argue that Christ is not our High Priest in heaven still and still doing that work in the sanctuary.

    In fact in Heb 8 we are told specifically Christ is doing that work while seated.

    Heb 8
    1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seatedat the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

    So also the OT predicts this same feature for Christ's ministry.

    Zech 6
    12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
    13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."



    Actually the text points out that year after year - the sin offerings are repeated.


    Heb 10
    1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


    Apparently you were "hoping" it would have been written "reminder of sins at the end of each year on the Day of Atonement".

    The text says that the sacrifice is "once for all" but never says that the Day of Atonement portion of the High Priestly work in heaven has been completed --- at all.

    Heb 10:19 also does not indicate that the Day of Atonement had taken place in heaven or was ended.

    19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
    20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,     (Heb 10)



    There is not one text of scripture speaking of "being seated on the day of Atonement to signify the end" and we both know it.

    In fact Heb 8 and Zech 6 are explicit that Christ does His work as our High Priest - seated on His throne - seated at the right hand of the Father.

    Heb 8
    Heb 8
    1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seatedat the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
     
    #27 BobRyan, Nov 16, 2013
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    My point exactly, the High Preist never sat down in Levitcus 16 because what he was doing was a TYPE not the literal as only Christ could fufill this type LITERALLY and thus only Christ could be "seated" after finishing what was typified in Leviticus 16.

    I repeat my post rather than yours because your response were not consistent with the context of hebrews 10 which is proven by your failure to address the third point which proves the writer of hebrews is referring to the fulfilmment of the day of atonement as on no other day of the year did the High preist enter through the veil to the holy of holiest with the blood of a sacrafice but that is precisely what the writer has in view in Hebrews 10:1-18 as verse 17-18 prove beyond any reasonable doubt.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Lev 16 the Day of Atonement "ends" without a statement like "And then the High Priest sat down to indicate that the Day of Atonement has ended".

    Thus "making stuff up" about posture being the key to the service - fails right out of the gate.

    Even worse - the Bible predicts that the work of Christ as High Priest is done with Christ seated.
    (Turns out this statement is made as part of the "MAIN POINT")

    Heb 8
    1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying:We have such a High Priest, who is seatedat the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.


    And is also predicted to be seated while doing that ministry - in the OT.


    Zech 6
    12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
    13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."


    Thus totally negating the possibility of eisegeting in the claim that all ministry of Christ ceases when He is seated.

    Obviously.

    Having said that - the Atoning Sacrifice made at the cross is completed "once for all" and the Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father to begin his work as High Priest - not to continue more sacrifice.

    Heb 10
    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down at the right hand of God;

    Just as Jesus began His work in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest - so Paul says that the saints were to -- have confidence to enter into the Holy Place -

    Heb 10
    19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
    20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,     (Heb 10)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #29 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2013
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  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. You are unwilling to recognize and admit that the design of Hebrews 10:9-12 is to contrast the UNFINISHED never ending work of the Old Testament Priesthood to the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ. Anyone who is objective can easily recognize this is the point being made by the writer of Hebrews when using the word "seated."

    2. You are unwilling to recognize that the sacrifice by Christ depicted in Hebrews 10:5-18 is being directly compared to the day of atonement when once a year the High Priest entered through the "veil" with blood into the holiest of holies (vv. 15-18) as this NEVER occurred in other day of the year by any other High Preistly work.

    3. Your reference to Zechariah contains a combination of two offices, High Preist and King and kings do sit on a throne as that is one primary characteristics of a King. His rule as King is certainly an unfinished work as it is not fulfilled until He returns visibly as King of kings and Lord of lords by putting down other kings and kingdoms of this world and visibly reigning over them. However, "seated" in reference to the High Priest demands His work has been finished and that is the obivous point in Hebrews 10:9-12 which you purposely abuse and pervert.


    Heb 10
    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down at the right hand of God;

    The obvious contrast is "standeth" versus "sat down" in connection with "daily ministerng and oftentimes the same sacrifices which can never take away sin" versus the past tense completed action "had offered one sacrifice for sins forever"

    It does not take a genius to see the obvious contrast as the consequences of Christ's "one sacrifice...forever" is that we are "sanctified forever" by that same completed sacrificial work.

    It says no such thing! He uses past tense completed action verbs to describe a FINISHED work but never once uses present tense verbs to describe that work. Hebrew 10:19 refers to the "blood of Jesus" already presented by Christ into the holiest of holies in heaven and that is the very reason we can enter ON EARTH before God in the holiest of holies in heaven because the blood of Christ has ALREADY been accepted there ON OUR BEHALF.


    Heb 10
    19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
    20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,     (Heb 10)

    You do not understand even the abc's of the High Priestly work of Christ.
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Nov 18, 2013
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    when does God judge a sinner as being either condemned or saved/freed?

    HINT We have ALREADY passed over from spiritual death to spieirual life in Christ, and God declares us forever cleansed by the blood of Jesus!

    Either His blood/death purifed and cleansed for me ALL my sins, or else it was not sufficient, just broughtme a temp probationary time, to make sure my deed would "earn and merit keeping it!"

    NO passage teaches that heresy!
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Nov 18, 2013
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