Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

[DHK]

In case you missed this detail - this thread is on the TEN Commandments. You can find them in Exodus 20. Did you want to say something about them?

in Christ,

Bob

They are here Bob:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

They are the Scriptures concerning the Sabbath that you like to ignore.
It was given to Israel, not to the SDA's

 

[Yeshua1]

They are here Bob:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

They are the Scriptures concerning the Sabbath that you like to ignore.
It was given to Israel, not to the SDA's

what verse in the NT states that God brought it back upon, obligated on , the Church though?

I cannot find that!

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - - God speaks the TEN Commandments in Ex 20 -- as all Bible students know - I am sure.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their FAITH in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Of course for a number of Baptists - this comes as no surprise at all --


=====================

So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.

[FONT=&quot]Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial lawswere appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

what verse in the NT states that God brought it back upon, obligated on , the Church though?

I cannot find that!

Is 66:23 - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Turns out - the TEN Commandments never went away.

===================================


[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

 

[DHK]

Turns out - - God speaks the TEN Commandments in Ex 20 -- as all Bible students know - I am sure.

In Exodus 20, as in Exodus 31, the Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites. The Sabbath was never given to the gentiles to obey. Never.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

There is nothing there about sabbath-keeping. Absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the Bible are Gentiles commanded to keep the Sabbath.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their FAITH in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The "saints" are raptured before the Tribulation begins. You misunderstand this verse and misuse it. Nor is is speaking of the Sabbath.

You have failed to show any scripture whatsoever where any Gentile believer is required to keep the sabbath.
No man should believe this heretical teaching that you espouse.
It also should be noted that in the NT, all of the Ten Commandments are repeated as commands except one: that is, to keep the Sabbath. Why? it was given to the Jews.
Your teaching is heretical.

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - - God speaks the TEN Commandments in Ex 20 -- as all Bible students know - I am sure.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their FAITH in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The "saints" are raptured before the Tribulation begins. You misunderstand this verse and misuse it. Nor is is speaking of the Sabbath.

Indeed - according to the man-made-tradition that you follow the text should not say that the "saints" are keeping the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus - because you think they are gone in Rev 14.

Sadly - that is just another "bible detail" that indicates that your traditions are in error.

Rev 14:12.
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

There is nothing there about sabbath-keeping. Absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the Bible are Gentiles commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Until you actually look at what the Bible says about the Commandments of God -- of course.




[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. __________________


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19



Until you actually look at what the Bible says about the Commandments of God -- of course.




[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. __________________


in Christ,

Bob

It is fruitless to debate you Bob. It is like talking to a brick wall. You don't want to debate the subject. You just keep posting the same verses over and over again--even when shown to be wrong. You are not teachable. You quote the same sources even when the sources you quote really disagree with you. That is hypocrisy and deceit.

BTW, Messianic Jews were recently kicked out of Israel. That shows how much they have in common, doesn't it?

 

[BobRyan]

I point to the TEN Commandments in both OT and NT in the teaching of Christ in the NT author's statements - and you respond that it is pointless to discuss this subject based on those texts that speak to it??

You are doing little more than expressing your own feelings and how you feel like opposing the TEN Commandments. You're not dealing with the actual texts.

 

[steaver]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19



Until you actually look at what the Bible says about the Commandments of God -- of course.





in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you push this verses a lot. Could you tell me your application of it to the believer? It says "what matters". My question is "matters" for what? For salvation? For justification? For sanctification? Etc. Not saying you have to choose one of those, just giving some examples for application. You like to teach? Teach me how this applies to the believer, according your understanding.

 

[shodan]

Repent

Maybe I missed it, but add Luther, Calvin, and Wesley to those who affirm the Ten Commandments. Luther taught on them twice yearly and exhorted parents to teach them to their children.

The sad fact is that most children of Christians DO NOT KNOW THEM.
Repentance is the only faithful course. But I truly doubt that we will see that here or elsewhere.

http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/teaching-children-the-ten-commandments/

 

[Crabtownboy]

When we talk to our Catholic friends about the 2nd commandment and not having images to use for praying, or in worship - even though the images merely "represent" those beings in heaven to which they pray -- the "answer" could come back something like we find among certain Evangelicals.

"Well the Commandments are impossible to keep - at best you can keep this or that one in spirit - but not according to what the letter of it actually says".

Jesus did not accept that sort of answer in Mark 7 when it comes to the Ten Commandments (He calls them the "Word of God") in Mark 7:13.

Jesus used the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and mother" to illustrated the point of not allowing religious leaders to come up with goofy ideas for running over the Ten Commandments.

Paul says "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19

Jesus said 'IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - even before the cross.

John said that the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith both argue for keeping the Commandments (the TEN Commandments) rather than breaking them.

So also do C.H. Spurgeon, R.C Sproul and D.L. Moody support the idea of KEEPING the Ten Commandments rather than breaking them.

James quotes from the TEN Commandments in James 2 and calls them the "Law of Liberty" - again urging that the saints keep them rather than tossing them under a bus.

So then what about unpopular commandments? Like commandment number 2 mentioned above - or Commandment 4 that has the "Impossible thread" dedicated to it.?

Does this idea of honoring the Moral Law of God - fall apart when it gets to unpopular parts of His Law?

Or as some have suggested - do you "honor" the unpopular commands by ignoring them?

in Christ,

Bob

The truth is no one can keep all of them.

 

[DHK]

The truth is no one can keep all of them.

I agree. IMO, more accurately put, no one can keep a single one of them.
To put the restriction "keeping the commandments" on oneself is simply to condemn oneself.

 

[BobRyan]

The truth is no one can keep all of them.

When Mormons want to have multiple wives and we know that violates the 7th commandment - is the "solution" to remind them "well you can't keep all of the Ten commandments"?? Really?

When the Catholics talk about the idea of having images in worship - and we know that violates the 2nd commandment -- is the solution "well... you can't keep all of the Ten Commandments"??

How is it a few evangelicals have such clarity on certain commandments not getting tossed under a bus just because the various kinds of cloth are not to be worn or it is "hard" to keep the Ten Commandments - yet other commandments get shoved out the window in the TEN at the drop of a hat?

In Romans 8:6-8 Paul specifically speaks to the idea that a certain group of people cannot keep the Law of God.

Romans 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe I missed it, but add Luther, Calvin, and Wesley to those who affirm the Ten Commandments. Luther taught on them twice yearly and exhorted parents to teach them to their children.

The sad fact is that most children of Christians DO NOT KNOW THEM.
Repentance is the only faithful course. But I truly doubt that we will see that here or elsewhere.

http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/teaching-children-the-ten-commandments/

So then the Baptist Confession of Faith,
D.L Moody,
C.H. Spurgeon,
R.C. Sproul,
Andy Stanley
Westminster Confession of Faith -etc
are not "alone" in claiming that the TEN Commandments are to be affirmed - rather than shoved under a bus.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK

There is nothing there about sabbath-keeping. Absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the Bible are Gentiles commanded to keep the Sabbath.


Until you actually look at what the Bible says about the Commandments of God -- of course.




[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]

Bob, you push this verses a lot. Could you tell me your application of it to the believer? It says "what matters". My question is "matters" for what?

In the text it says -

18 Is any man called, being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called, being uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling as when he was called.


Paul says that the ceremonial law does not matter - but the Commandments of God DO matter.

For salvation? For justification? For sanctification? Etc.

Jesus said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

It is not how unsaved people GET saved - but according to John it is an accurate description of what the saved people actually do.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


Contrast this with "being at war against God's Commandments" for example, and claiming that His Commandments ARE burdensome.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Jesus said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

It is not how unsaved people GET saved - but according to John it is an accurate description of what the saved people actually do.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


Contrast this with "being at war against God's Commandments" for example, and claiming that His Commandments ARE burdensome.


in Christ,

Bob

If this is your answer to Steaver you have failed miserably.
First, to keep the Sabbath is one of the most burdensome laws to keep, if you are going to keep it biblically. But you don't care about that. You simply follow EGW traditions, the traditions of a woman.
'Her commandments ARE burdensome.'
Christ's commandments are not.

Either you fail to understand (which I don't believe), or fail to deliberately answer Steaver's question (which I do believe).
It is easy to copy and paste Scripture.
In effect, what you are doing is standing behind your "pulpit" and preaching:

Don't do as I do; Do as I say!

And then you simply quote Scripture not demonstrating it in your life, nor telling how it can be demonstrated in another's life. That is pure hypocrisy.

1. You can't follow the commandments.
2. You can't demonstrate how you follow the commandments.
3. Your answers beg the question.
4. You deflect the question by referring to others.
5. You don't refer to yourself; not answering Steaver's question--How do YOU follow the commandments.

Try answering his question. And don't answer a question with a question.

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

First, to keep the Sabbath is one of the most burdensome laws to keep, if you are going to keep it biblically.

Well now "see"? we have a clear line of contrast drawn there - it is good to see where the differences exist.

Your argument is "with the text".

If that is where you want to draw your line of opposition - then that is a choice you make.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Any time someone may wish to tell our Catholic friends that the 2nd commandment against using images in worship needs to be taken seriously - and the Catholic person in question objects -- they may be interested in this bit of "news"

I
1. You can't follow the commandments.

Paul may need that "news" as well for Paul said
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". 1 Cor 7:19

And John claims the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Paul says this in Romans 8 about those who claim that they "cannot" keep God's commands.

Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Thus Paul fully agrees that there is a group of people that really "cannot" keep the Commandments of God.

You may join them if you wish.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3



Well now "see"? we have a clear line of contrast drawn there - it is good to see where the differences exist.

Your argument is "with the text".

If that is where you want to draw your line of opposition - then that is a choice you make.

in Christ,

Bob

My argument is not with the text, it is with you. You just demonstrated the veracity of my post.
You are unable to answer the post in the first person singular. You can't say: This is how I keep the commandments... because it is impossible for you to do so.
You just quote Scripture and play your game of:

Do as I say; not as do!

You are a hypocrite and have just proven it.
You can't give an honest answer to a simple post.