Featured Double Double Toil and Trouble

It is not about "revelation which enables salvation" either! It is about the chosen sphere from which God calls out the promised elect children of Abraham. He promised an elect seed from the very loins of Abraham in addition to the NATIONS OF THE GENTILES. All according to election.

Simply not true! Nowhere does Romans 11 say that - nowhere! Being grafted in did not change their blindness but it is election that obtained sight (Rom. 11:5-7). To be spiritually blind is the natural condition of the fallen nature (Deut. 5:29) whereas to obtain spiritual sight is the supernatural condition of a new heart (Deut. 29:4). You are simply READING INTO the text not only what it denies but what the whole of scripture denies. Romans 8:7-8 (which you have not yet addressed any of may specific points) completely repudiates your interpretation.

That is simply not true! The fallen natue is already blind and deaf in regard to SPIRITUAL ability to receive the truth. The NATURAL ability to recognize truth is taken away from the fallen man as he is exposed to light due to the NATURAL reaction of the fallen nature to that light (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7-8).

It most certainly is and Romans 8:7-8 and John 3:19-20 proves that it is as there are no other options for existence in this world other than "in the flesh" (born of the flesh) and "in the Spirit" (born of the Spirit) and man does not come into this world "in the Spirit" but "in the flesh" and the flesh "CANNOT PLEASE GOD" (Rom. 8:7).

Your position demands a THIRD alternative to being BORN of the flesh other than the second Biblical LATER alternative of being BORN of the Spirit and no such third alternative exists anywhere at anytime on earth.

This is a straw man argument because we don't believe any such thing or assert any such thing. We believe that hardening is the natural RESPONSE by the fallen nature to light. Thus, man is not born hardened but born a fallen nature which will always RESPOND to light by hardening just as mud ALWAYS responds to Sunlight by hardening. The nature of the mud determines the reaction and thus man is born with a fallen nature and only WHEN exposed to light it will harden. Hardening is the RESULT/CONSEQUENCE to light whereas the fallen nature is the CAUSE for that hardening.

 

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

verse 28 "they" Israel in their present state of unbelief; "your" saved elect gentiles; "they" Israel in regard to election and future salvation.

verse 30 "ye" as lost gentile elect in times past; "their" Israel's present rejection of the gospel

verse 31 "these" Israel in its present state of unbelief; "your" elect saved gentiles; "they" Israel in view of their election to salvation.

verse 32 "them all" Israel in its present state of unbelief; "all" Israel in regard to election and future salvation.

 

Is Christ divided?

Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth who leads all believers into all truth?

The Jews could also read. However, they killed Christ.

Conclusion: Reading is not the issue. Reading with spiritual understanding is the issue.

So did Nicodemus. He could not understand how a grown man could crawl back into his mother's womb in order to be 'born again.'

The Pharisees also took Jesus' words seriously and literally. They understood Him to be preaching the destruction of their Holy Temple.

Please find 3 universally recognized theologians who agree with you.

Please cite your sources.

All the cults use this line of reasoning....the Mormons, SDAs, JWs, Roman Catholics, etc., etc.

No, Winman. The only person who has never sinned is JESUS CHRIST.

If your sinless doctrine is true, then on what basis have millions of babies died?

Are you suggesting death is a natural course of life, having nothing to do with punishment for sin?

If so, you are leaving Biblical Christianity farther and farther behind as you gallop headlong into the dark fog of unbelief.

Your tag line above demonstrates the pride and audacity which little children have not yet acquired....the likes of which Scripture and Jesus condemns.

Jesus prefers those who come without preconceived views of their 'wisdom', 'status', 'greatness' or 'deserved honor'.

Children have none of these attributes.

It isn't until they are teenagers that it all begins to turn very ugly........

 

It is one thing to placed in a position to be exposed to special revelation and quite another to draw your conclusion as your conclusion assumes the very issue we are debating to be true. You know this is an improper debate tactic to use as an argument the very thing you are trying to prove, so why do it????? I guess you imagine I am fairly stupid!

I can assume this exposure proves my position as well. So what have we gained? The fallen nature will always respond this way without mirculous divine intervention that creates inner light - 2 Cor. 4:6. God is perfectly just in condemning unbelief and resistance to the truth (Rom. 8:7-8).

You are right there is no mention of the term "sphere" in this text just as there is no mention of making Gentiles a nation in this Text as the gentiles were recognized and called "nations" from Genesis to Revelation. Please don't try to spiritualize "nation" based on inserting 1 Pet. 2:9 into this discusssion.

I used the term "sphere" only to show that God's primary work of redemption moved from one class of people to another class of people.

The issue between is not that hardening is a process but what is it that is hardening. I say it is the fallen CLAY nature of man. Man is totally depraved but that does mean he is incapable of greater corruption or more intensity of hatred toward the light. Man is totally depraved but that does not mean he cannot recognize what it is that he hates and resists. Exposure of light to the clay begins this hardening process.

You presume contrary to clear and explicit and often repeated scripture that fallen man comes to the table in a NEUTRAL state or condition and that is simply not true. You presume contrary to clear and explicit and often repeated scripture that fallen man is capable of being and doing "good" in God's sight and that is simply not true. You presume contrary to clear and explicit and often repeated scripture that fallen man comes into this world other than "in the flesh" or a condition that is explicitly defined by Paul to be in a state of war and resistant to God (Rom. 8:7-8) and that is simply not true. They are already spiritually deaf, blind and unable to understand (Deut. 5:29) and that ablity must be given (Deut. 29:4). Hardening is simply that condition increasingly being made manifest as exposed to light.

 

You said plural "texts" but only quote one? I wonder why only one? Oh! I know the second one does not fit your arguments as the second one proves seeing, hearing only occurs when a new heart is GIVEN and not before:

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Must I repeat the obvious? Yes, I guess I must! Such seeing, hearing is not possible untilt he Lord "GIVES" such a heart. - case closed.

 

If you cannot readily see that Deuteronomy 4:29 declares they have no such heart and Deuteronomy equally declares why such a heart is needed to obey His word then there is nothing I can do to help you see what it is obviously and clearly stated. It is not inferred or implied but spelled out in black and white - just read Deut. 29:4.

Deuteronomy 5:29 makes it clear they don't have such a heart and Deuteronomy 29:4 makes it clear why the need such a heart to do the very things you claim they were already capable and forfeited by hardening. Pleeeeease get glasses.

In other words you are clearly repudiating the very meaning of Deuteronomy 29:4!!! You are claiming they already had such ability to see and hear and through hardening they became the condition described in Deuterononmy 29:4 while Deuternomy 29:4 says THE VERY OPPOSITE!

And where do you get that idea from? Not Deuteronomy 5:29 if it is interpreted in connection with Deuterony 29:4. No, you get it by disregarding Deut. 29:4 and READING IT INTO Deuteronomy 5:29 in spite the absolute contradiction to that eisgetical insertion by Deuteronomy 29:4. If this is how you think and reason then we are in for along unproductive discussion.

Read 2 Cor. 3:3-7 and you will find out how they come to faith and how the veil is removed. It is the New Covenant work of God the same new covenant work clearly expressed in Ezek. 36:26-27 and Jermiahs 31:33-34 which is spelled out again in Hebrews as the "new" covenant (Heb. 8, 10). The gospel is preached but the Holy Spirit writes it upon the heart giving the desire just as Ezekiel 36:26 gives the cause while Ezek. 36:27 gives the consequence which includes the desire. The writing on the heart is the cause while the desire is the effect.

I have answered these repeated objections in minute detail and demonstrated your interpetations are simply false but you just keep repeating them as though they are valid. If you want to take one at a time and make them a separate thread, I will be more than happy to demonstrate in detail once again why your interpretations are simply inaccurate.

 

If Titus 3:10 were applicable on this forum I would have already said goodbye to you and many others. However, you do usually attempt to respond rationally and reasonably.

We both know why you are doing this though! What I said was true and you can't get out of it any other respectable way and so touche!

 

No onee denies that hardening is a process and so simply quoting scriptures to prove that point is a staw man effort.

The issue is whether these persons had a fallen nature already when they entered the world as described in Romans 3:10-20 and 8:7-8. That is, were they "born of flesh" and thus "in the flesh" when they entered into the world as Romans 8:7 is the condition of existing "in the flesh" according to Romans 8:8. That is the real issue.

If all these quotations of hardening were POST-fallen condition occurrences then no amount of logic can make hardening the cause of the fallen condition.

No one yet has dared deal with Deuteronomy 5:29 IN RELATIONSHIP WITH Deuteronomy 29:4 because it contradicts Skandelon's position in clear explicit languague and I quote:

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

This text denies that incapability to perceive, see and hear was forfeited by a later hardening! It clearly establishes that such abilites must be "given" in connection with the creation of a new heart. It is that simple! Hence, hardening cannot possibly be the consequence of an already seeing, hearing perceiving condition as Skandelon presumes. His use of scriptures are abusive and misleading.

 

But is that not the very point Jesus makes when explaining the new birth from above, by the Spirit, the absolute requirement to seeing, and therefore, to entering the Kingdom of God?

Despite all the positive attributes and extensive education of Nicodemus, he was still blind to spiritual truth. Even Nicodemus, the greatest Teacher in Israel, needed the new birth.

And is not that new birth the sole, sovereign work of God's good pleasure upon a passive sinful man of flesh who no more hinders nor helps the new birth than he did his first fleshly birth?

Does not His analogy of the wind (i.e., 'spirit' = pneuma) further prove the point that the necessary new birth is under the absolute control and authority of the Lord who directs His Spirit, as He does the wind, to 'blow upon' (i.e., regenerate) only those whom He wills regeneration?

 

Actually, Jesus is speaking of the word of God, read again;

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Almost everyone overlooks the phase, "and thou hearest the sound thereof". Jesus was speaking of the word of God. The scriptures tell us that a person is born again by receiving or believing on Jesus;

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

To those persons who receive Jesus and believe on him to save them, to these persons God gives the power to become the sons of God. This is the new birth that only God can work.

And this is also what Jesus tells Nicodemus;

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus by his word tells Nicodemus how to be born again in a way he can understand. As the children of Israel who were bitten by the fiery serpents in the wilderness were saved by looking in faith to the brazen serpent on a pole, those who look to Jesus to save them from their sins are given the new birth, eternal life, and shall not perish.

This is a story that Nicodemus would have understood. So God reveals how to be saved through his word which a man can hear.

 

Please respond to my earlier post #183 which was directed specifically to you.

 

No.

Well, if they LISTEN to the Holy Spirit, then yes. If they do not listen to the Holy Spirit, then no.

I would agree, but what is reading with spiritual understanding? When someone denies what scripture clearly says, I would say that is not reading with spiritual understanding.

At first, no he could not. But once Jesus used an analogy he could understand he did understand.

Correct, they did not understand he was speaking of his body. His disciples probably did not understand either, until he expressly explained this to them.

I don't care about your recognized theologians. No one is more recognized than Augustine, and I think he introduced more error into the church than any other man.

Actually, all the cults have their "recognized" teachers or theologians, the Mormons have Joseph Smith, the SDAs have Ellen G. White, and you Reformed have many teachers.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Romans 9:11 shows us that babies have committed no sin. If they were to die at this stage they would be sinless. There have been millions of children who have died at this age. That would explain the "99 just persons which need no repentance" that Jesus spoke about.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that it was Jesus who spoke of 99 just persons which need no repentance, 99 sheep which went not astray, and the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time.

It was Jesus that spoke of these persons, not me. I don't think think you are letting the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth by dismissing Jesus's words.

I don't understand this question. Are you denying that millions of unborn or little children have died?

All men die as a consequence of Adam's sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, God chased them out of the garden and prevented them from eating of the tree of life. This is why all men physically die.

It is you that does not believe Jesus's words. It was Jesus that spoke of 99 just persons which need no repentance, it was Jesus who said the elder son never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. I believe Jesus, you do not.

You do not know scripture then, or do not believe it. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Do you really believe Jesus was telling his disciples they need to be converted and become sinners? That is ridiculous and I think even YOU know that.

Jesus said to be careful not to offend little children as their angels do always behold his Father's face. Does that sound like Jesus is describing wicked sinners that God hates? Absurd.

And children are naturally humble.

Again, you either do not know, or do not believe scripture, Jesus said little children were humble.

Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Actually, the scriptures do teach that about the time that a person becomes a teenager is when they begin to sin.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

God didn't say man's imagination is evil from birth, he said man's imagination is evil from his "youth". Most scholars interpret this to mean the "teenage" years.

The Jews believed a person became accountable at this age, the boys were to study the law at age 13, the girls age 12. At their Bar and Bat Mitzvah they became accountable before God. Up until this age the parents were held responsible for their child's actions, but after this age the child was himself held responsible for his own actions.

And that is what the scriptures show, but you would rather listen to your teachers than the word of God.