Featured Double Double Toil and Trouble

TRANSLATION: "I can't help it if I happen to have a unique Holy Ghost anointing, a gift of interpretation which exceeds that given to all men.

I say this in all humility knowing that God gives grace to the humble.

To my knowledge I was sinless through High School.

This can be proven by the nicknames given me by my class mates: 'Teacher's Pet, Brown Nose, and Mother's Little Helper.'

It wasn't until the infamous Summer of '69 that I was introduced to loosey Lucy, margaritas and Rock n Roll."

 

No, it is their own choice that keeps them on the first team and their own free will will continue to keep them on that team. It takes God's choice based on pure grace to place them on the other team.

The bottom line is that you can never find "elect", "election" "chosen" ever used in scripture in regard to damnation as God's action.

 

...meaning He chose to keep us on the first team. There is just no way around double predestination.

Also, who chose that we would be on the first team to begin with?

 

Note the present tense "is" proving he was never saved. Second, notice the relationship of choice is to the "twelve" or office of apostle not to salvation. Only by confusing choice to service/office with choice to salvation can you make such a leap.

 

Completely inconsistent and illogical. Did they choose to be put on the first team? How are they 'free' to remain on a team they could never leave if they are never chosen for his team? This is like the freedom a prisoner has to stay in prison, there is no freedom whatsoever.

 

Adam caused us to be on the first team, and not God, Brother WebDog. I used to see this exactly like you did, thinking that any predestination had to be "double". Not so. Adam, being the "fountain head" for all humanity, caused us to be born into a sinful world as sinners. Christ, being the "fountain head" for His sheep, His bride, His elect, ensures salvation for us.

 

Leap? :laugh: How about choosing a devil to be an apostle?

 

So Adam was sovereign over God as He was unable to stop Adam? Who chose it to be that way? No matter how many layers you go back either God determined it or He didn't.

Well take you back at any time...just ask Skan

 

God told Adam he could eat anything in the Garden. Including the tree of knowledge of God and evil. He told him the stipulations of what happen when he did. He told him "in the day thou eats, ye shall surely die". God knew it would happen, yet, He didn't stop it.

 

The fact is that election is NEVER used by God to damnation. To make that leap depends upon HUMAN LOGIC without a Biblical basis.

Second, sin is not God's choice but man's choice and therefore there is no double predestination by God as the choice to be on the first team is man's choice not God's.

Third, leaving man on the first team is a matter of JUSTICE and JUSTICE does not and cannot demand mercy and it is mercy that is the basis for election to the second team.

Fourth, the first team precedes the second team and requires no choice by God to be on that team as membership on that team was by human choice and the choice to remain on that teach remains to be human choice.

Fifth, election to salvation cannot be deminished or rejected on the basis of JUSTICE or logic that is based upon JUSTICE as Justice would require wholesale damnation of all mankind. Election to salvation based on mercy does not demand universal election and cannot demand it. Therefore selectivity cannot be condemned but can only be an object of wonderment.

 

How can that be a leap when the very text you quote says that verbatim. Note the text you quoted did not say "did I not choose YOU TO SALVATION but one of you is a demon". However, that is how you are treating it and that is how your logic is being developed. Be courteous enough to recognize what the text actually says versus what you want it to say.

 

We'll I think I'm convinced

 

The only leap here is just what I stated, He chose a devil to be an apostle. He chose an apostle that became possessed by the devil.

 

I do not think I have a unique anointing of the Holy Spirit, I think I have the same anointing of the Holy Spirit that every believer gets.

Look, I can read. In all 4 stories, no one was originally lost. This is not a parable about the Pharisees, Jesus NEVER gave them the impression they were sinless, he condemned them publicly. These stories are not about the gospel going to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles like the parable of the marriage in Matthew 22. No, Jesus clearly said this was a parable that shows God is not willing that any person should perish, and everyone in heaven rejoices when a sinner repents. So, the subject is salvation.

It was Jesus who made it a point to show no person was originally lost. He did not have to do this, but he chose to do this. It was Jesus who told us the elder son NEVER sinned. He did not have to tell us this, but he made it a point to tell us this.

Unlike the rest of you, I take Jesus's words seriously, and literally. I do not dismiss Jesus's words because they disagree with Augustine, or John Calvin, or Jonathan Edwards.

I would bet that many Christians, including many theologians recognized that these parables clearly refute Original Sin. But many were probably afraid to stand up and say so. They would have been cast out of the church or perhaps MUCH worse. They might have been beheaded or burned at the stake. This is how error persists so long in the church, because the powers that be do not like anyone who does not toe the line.

Like I said, I can read. Jesus spoke of 99 persons who did not go astray and need no repentance, he spoke of the elder son who never sinned against his father. It is our duty to find out who these persons are. They are not the angels, because Jesus called them just "persons" and the elder son was brother to the prodigal.

So who has never sinned? The ONLY possible answer is children who died very young before they knew right from wrong.

This view is supported by Matthew 18 where Jesus is speaking specifically of children. He tells his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. That alone should tell anyone that little children are not lost. He says not to despise little children because their angels do always behold his Father's face. Again this should tell any thinking person that children are not lost.

Then Jesus repeats the parable about a shepherd with 100 sheep, one goes astray, the shepherd searches until he finds it. Then Jesus clearly says it is not his Fathers will that "one of these little ones should perish". And again, Jesus speaks here of 99 sheep which "went not astray". These must have also been little children. Read for yourself and see.

So, my view is not fantastic at all. It is some of these other interpretations that are wild and do not fit the stories whatsoever.

There certainly weren't 99 Pharisees for every layperson in Israel.

But have there been literally MILLIONS of babies that have died before they could sin? YES.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You guys are the ones with fantastic and unbelievable interpretations for Luke 15, not me.

 

Yes. Jesus purposefully, knowingly chose a devil to be an Apostle.

Biblicist is correct.

Jesus did not choose him to salvation.

Jesus chose him to an office of high leadership in His Church.

Why did He do such a thing?

 

Judas did not become possessed until after the last supper, so no, he did not choose a devil. He also did not choose him to be in any office within the church as the church had not been implanted yet.

 

Great! But what has that to do with election to "salvation"???

 

Please note the present tense "is" in the very text you quote which is long before the Lord's Supper or John 13. He "is" a devil and was so from the beginning (Jn. 6:64,70). He did not "become" a devil but "IS" a devil when Jesus chose him "from the beginning" (Jn. 6:64) and while he was speaking in John 6:70.

 

Biblicist has responded correctly to your denial that Judas was always a devil.

Re: Apostles.......so they are not members of the NT Church?

And Christ is not yet Head of the Church?

And Christ was not the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

And the Elect NT Church members were not chosen before the foundation of the world?

 

What about God hardening Phaoroahs heart and raising him up as a vessel of wrath?