Double Double Toil and Trouble

[convicted1]

We'll I'm afraid I won't be recommending your book to anyone but seriously it isn't supralapsarianism (which is a silly debate, man assuming he knows how Gods mind works, what if he doesn't think linearly like we do?) and God let man act according to his nature which as we know is sinful. The alternative is faith by works and a limited "god"

I'll pass on 'your book' as well. Also, the pb position amounts to the same thing.

Brothers, will you each explain your view on predestination? I see it that God chose us from amongst the accursed in the world. The others were left in their fallen state through Adam's sin. But, God did not coerce or compulse Adam to do so.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Brothers, will you each explain your view on predestination? I see it that God chose us from amongst the accursed in the world. The others were left in their fallen state through Adam's sin. But, God did not coerce or compulse Adam to do so.

As long as you don't believe that God chose us because we first chose Him then I would completely agree, also I do not believe God coerced Adam to sin but it was part of His plan

 

[convicted1]

As long as you don't believe that God chose us because we first chose Him then I would completely agree, also I do not believe God coerced Adam to sin but it was part of His plan

I love Him because He first loved me. And I agree that what Adam did was part of His plan, He seeing the last from the first.

 

[The Biblicist]

As long as you don't believe that God chose us because we first chose Him then I would completely agree, also I do not believe God coerced Adam to sin but it was part of His plan

We are on the same page in the same book - the Bible

 

[convicted1]

I would be considered to be in the "sub" group of predestination......

 

[The Biblicist]

I would be considered to be in the "sub" group of predestination......

I as well. The potter's clay is already of fallen material as the vessels saved are called vessels of "mercy" and there is no need for "mercy" where there is not already JUST JUDGEMENT for sin. Election is "TO" salvation and NEVER in Scripture "TO" damnation as man is "condemned already." The very expression "election TO salvation" necessarily implies an unsaved condition, a fallen condition that needs salvation.

The doctrine of reprobation is grounded upon the JUSTICE of God to do with fallen mankind as He chooses who are simply left to their own depraved desires, thus fitted to destruction by their own fallen nature.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I as well. The potter's clay is already of fallen material as the vessels saved are called vessels of "mercy" and there is no need for "mercy" where there is not already JUST JUDGEMENT for sin. Election is "TO" salvation and NEVER in Scripture "TO" damnation as man is "condemned already." The very expression "election TO salvation" necessarily implies an unsaved condition, a fallen condition that needs salvation.

The doctrine of reprobation is grounded upon the JUSTICE of God to do with fallen mankind as He chooses who are simply left to their own depraved desires, thus fitted to destruction by their own fallen nature.

I agree with that, but if He has chosen some for salvation, those left would automatically be chosen for punishment, as He has chosen not to save them, right?

 

[convicted1]

I as well. The potter's clay is already of fallen material as the vessels saved are called vessels of "mercy" and there is no need for "mercy" where there is not already JUST JUDGEMENT for sin. Election is "TO" salvation and NEVER in Scripture "TO" damnation as man is "condemned already." The very expression "election TO salvation" necessarily implies an unsaved condition, a fallen condition that needs salvation.

The doctrine of reprobation is grounded upon the JUSTICE of God to do with fallen mankind as He chooses who are simply left to their own depraved desires, thus fitted to destruction by their own fallen nature.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I agree with that, but if He has chosen some for salvation, those left would automatically be chosen for punishment, as He has chosen not to save them, right?

It depends upon which view you have, "supra" or "sub". They were already fallen, fitted for destruction. God, in His grace, love and mercy, chose the sheep from amongst those who were fallen, to give to the Lamb. The Lamb, in return, bore their sins on the cross, making their salvation a surety, and not a possibility......

 

[convicted1]

I agree with that, but if He has chosen some for salvation, those left would automatically be chosen for punishment, as He has chosen not to save them, right?

Look at it like this. In the "sub" or "infra" view, God saw all humanity lost in Adam. If He had chosen to, He could have withheld His Son, and everyone of us would have died lost. But, according to His plan, He had the Lamb prepared to be slain from the foundation of the world, to atone for His sheep, those He chose from the fallen race.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree with that, but if He has chosen some for salvation, those left would automatically be chosen for punishment, as He has chosen not to save them, right?

No, because all were equally condemned JUSTLY and therefore there is no need to choose any for punishement. Election is an act of MERCY toward some who EQUALLY deserved the same justice. Moreover, the words "elect" and "chosen" and "election" in regard to the eternal state are NEVER used in regard to punishment.

 

[convicted1]

No, because all were equally condemned JUSTLY and therefore there is no need to choose any for punishement. Election is an act of MERCY toward some who EQUALLY deserved the same justice. Moreover, the words "elect" and "chosen" and "election" in regard to the eternal state are NEVER used in regard to punishment.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Look at it like this. In the "sub" or "infra" view, God saw all humanity lost in Adam. If He had chosen to, He could have withheld His Son, and everyone of us would have died lost. But, according to His plan, He had the Lamb prepared to be slain from the foundation of the world, to atone for His sheep, those He chose from the fallen race.

I really don't like that debate, at its foundation is the assumption God thinks as we do in a linear progression, one thought leading to another. Of course I don't know but if I were a betting man I would bet just about everything God's mind doesn't work like that. I couldn't imagine an omniscient infinite being would "think" like us.
Edit: but I do agree with what your saying.

 

[Sapper Woody]

No, because all were equally condemned JUSTLY and therefore there is no need to choose any for punishement. Election is an act of MERCY toward some who EQUALLY deserved the same justice. Moreover, the words "elect" and "chosen" and "election" in regard to the eternal state are NEVER used in regard to punishment.

But that view doesn't make sense to me. Going all the way back to kickball, I choose to keep some kids off the team if I don't choose them for the team. They aren't on the team before I don't choose them. But I still chose to not include them on the team, regardless of their current state of not already being on the team.

 

[The Biblicist]

But that view doesn't make sense to me. Going all the way back to kickball, I choose to keep some kids off the team if I don't choose them for the team. They aren't on the team before I don't choose them. But I still chose to not include them on the team, regardless of their current state of not already being on the team.

Ok, let me approach it from your angle. The fallen are all on the same team already and EQUALLY condemned due to choice to sin. God chooses some of the fallen to form another team. He does not have to choose the fallen to be on the team they are already on does he? He only has to choose those that form the new team. No choice is involved by God to form the first team as the choice to form the first team is the CHOICE TO SIN BY ALL OF ITS MEMBERS EQUALLY - THEIR CHOICE put them all on the first team. God's CHOICE forms another team.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Ok, let me approach it from your angle. The fallen are all on the same team already and EQUALLY condemned due to choice to sin. God chooses some of the fallen to form another team. He does not have to choose the fallen to be on the team they are already on does he? He only has to choose those that form the new team. No choice is involved by God to form the first team as the choice to form the first team is the CHOICE TO SIN BY ALL OF ITS MEMBERS EQUALLY - THEIR CHOICE put them all on the first team. God's CHOICE forms another team.

But by forming the other team and choosing who's on it, he'd be choosing to leave the others on the first team. He's still choosing for them by choosing to leave them in their current state. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

But by forming the other team and choosing who's on it, he'd be choosing to leave the others on the first team. He's still choosing for them by choosing to leave them in their current state. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

That's actually what I was thinking

 

[webdog]

No, because all were equally condemned JUSTLY and therefore there is no need to choose any for punishement. Election is an act of MERCY toward some who EQUALLY deserved the same justice. Moreover, the words "elect" and "chosen" and "election" in regard to the eternal state are NEVER used in regard to punishment.

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

 

[convicted1]

But by forming the other team and choosing who's on it, he'd be choosing to leave the others on the first team. He's still choosing for them by choosing to leave them in their current state. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

Those on the first team were fallen in Adam. All of us were on that team. If God had chosen to, He could have left us there. But His plan was to place us on His team via Christ.

 

[webdog]

But by forming the other team and choosing who's on it, he'd be choosing to leave the others on the first team. He's still choosing for them by choosing to leave them in their current state. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

You are not missing anything.