John 10:37-39 does prove OSAS

[The Biblicist]

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All given do in fact come - all of them - v. 37

2. "OF All " given none in fact are lost - nothing - v. 39

3. Their security is made the Son's responsibililty by the Father - vv. 38-39.

Hence their OSAS is conditioned solely upon Christ's obedience to the Father's will that none should be lost.

QUESTION: Has the Son ever failed in obeying the Father's will?

He said that he came into the world to obey the will of the Father and the specific aspect of the Father's will he came to obey is to make sure that "OF ALL" given to him by the Father NONE were to be lost. That was His will BEFORE Christ came and that was the will Christ specified that He was responsible for securing by his own obedience.


MY PREDICTION: No one can honestly and objectively deal with the statements I have made and so they will either ridicule, personally attack me, deflect and do the RJP cult tactic, ignore what I said or TWIST what I said or what the text says. That is their only routes of escape when they won't be honest or objective.

 

[evangelist-7]

Warning: this post is not recommended for the faint of heart …

Foist of oil, you have broken the Platinum Rule:
“Never build a doctrine by taking a passage out of context.
Every passage must somehow fit in with all of the NT.”

1) Salvation is a process …
One’s faith must endure everything until the end of one’s life (proof: 15+ passages).
Therefore, only God knows who He has “called” for salvation.

2) Those who are truly “called” will end up being saved (Romans 8:28-30).
Note: “For many are called, but few chosen.” (Matt 22:14) may be interpreted:
-- even though only a few are chosen out of all humanity, still many are chosen
-- the few chosen refers to those chosen for ministry

3) The “called” are mixed in with the uncalled …
sheep and goats, wheat and tares, wise and foolish virgins, etc.

4) Multitudes of passages warn and threaten that believers can be lost.
Therefore, for God, OSAS is true … but for us, OSAS is nonsensical.

5) John 10:37-39 … the Father gives the “called” to Jesus, and they will not be lost.
But, again, no one knows for sure who these ones are!

Opinion: The NT was mostly written to whom God has “called”.
And the multitudes of warnings are written to them, and they will indeed heed them.
The NT also serves to keep the “wannabes” in line for a much more civilized society.
All of this is well-hidden … the NT does say some things are “spiritually discerned”.

But as to the QUESTION: Has the Son ever failed in obeying the Father's will?

Throughout Scripture, God’s will has been overturned by man’s free will,
so Jesus’ will can also be overturned.
John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain”
These may (and can) choose with their free will to not co-operate.
Ref: all of the verses about being disobedient, falling away, falling from grace, etc.
And yes, the disobedient do prove that they were wannabees, and not the "called".
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Warning: this post is not recommended for the faint of heart …

Foist of oil, you have broken the Platinum Rule:
“Never build a doctrine by taking a passage out of context.
Every passage must somehow fit in with all of the NT.”

1) Salvation is a process …
One’s faith must endure everything until the end of one’s life (proof: 15+ passages).
Therefore, only God knows who He has “called” for salvation.

2) Those who are truly “called” will end up being saved (Romans 8:28-30).
Note: “For many are called, but few chosen.” (Matt 22:14) may be interpreted:
-- even though only a few are chosen out of all humanity, still many are chosen
-- the few chosen refers to those chosen for ministry

3) The “called” are mixed in with the uncalled …
sheep and goats, wheat and tares, wise and foolish virgins, etc.

4) Multitudes of passages warn and threaten that believers can be lost.
Therefore, for God, OSAS is true … but for us, OSAS is nonsensical.

5) John 10:37-39 … the Father gives the “called” to Jesus, and they will not be lost.
But, again, no one knows for sure who these ones are!

Opinion: The NT was mostly written to whom God has “called”.
And the multitudes of warnings are written to them, and they will indeed heed them.
The NT also serves to keep the “wannabes” in line for a much more civilized society.
All of this is well-hidden … the NT does say some things are “spiritually discerned”.

But as to the QUESTION: Has the Son ever failed in obeying the Father's will?

Throughout Scripture, God’s will has been overturned by man’s free will,
so Jesus’ will can also be overturned.
John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain”
These may (and can) choose with their free will to not co-operate.
Ref: all of the verses about being disobedient, falling away, falling from grace, etc.
And yes, the disobedient do prove that they were wannabees, and not the "called".
.

I predicted this is the only way they could deal with this OP and that is exactly what they did.

Readers this is the best my opponents can do! They cannot or will not address the OP but simply distract and attempt to derail the thread because they cannot dispute the facts of the OP.

So ridicule, distraction, RJP type tactics, personal attacks, ignoring is the only weapons in their arsenol.

So, we will simply ignore this distractive post because he refuses to address the OP.

 

[The Biblicist]

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All given do in fact come - all of them - v. 37

2. "OF All " given none in fact are lost - nothing - v. 39

3. Their security is made the Son's responsibililty by the Father - vv. 38-39.

Hence their OSAS is conditioned solely upon Christ's obedience to the Father's will that none should be lost.

QUESTION: Has the Son ever failed in obeying the Father's will?

He said that he came into the world to obey the will of the Father and the specific aspect of the Father's will he came to obey is to make sure that "OF ALL" given to him by the Father NONE were to be lost. That was His will BEFORE Christ came and that was the will Christ specified that He was responsible for securing by his own obedience.


MY PREDICTION: No one can honestly and objectively deal with the statements I have made and so they will either ridicule, personally attack me, deflect and do the RJP cult tactic, ignore what I said or TWIST what I said or what the text says. That is their only routes of escape when they won't be honest or objective.

Again, is there any opponent of OSAS that can honestly and objectively and directly deal with this OP and the evidences presented? No one yet! I predict again that no one will dare deal with it directly, honestly and straightforwardly.

 

[Reformed]

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is an antinomian term born out of the independent fundamentalist movement. It was used by those who believed that once a person claimed to be converted (by saying the sinner's prayer or asking Jesus into their heart) that they should never question their salvation regardless of their behavior. A person could live their entire life, post-salvation experience, as a godless heathen but be assured they are saved. The idea that obedience to Christ and good works as an evidence of salvation (Ephesians 2:10) were rejected as part of a works-based salvation.

Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate term. True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are indeed saved and nothing will take their salvation from them. However, true believers will display evidence of their conversion in many different ways. They will love the saints (John 13:34, 35; 1 John 3:23). They will perform good works (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; 1 John 3:18). They will follow God's commands (John 14:15; Titus 3:1; 2 John 1:6).

Perseverance does not mean perfection. We still have abiding sin. The flesh still wars against the Spirit. But the person who claims to belong to Christ, and who displays no work of the Spirit in their life, is standing on shaky ground.

 

[evangelist-7]

I predicted this is the only way they could deal with this OP and that is exactly what they did.
Readers this is the best my opponents can do! They cannot or will not address the OP
but simply distract and attempt to derail the thread because they cannot dispute the facts of the OP.
So ridicule, distraction, RJP type tactics, personal attacks, ignoring is the only weapons in their arsenol.
So, we will simply ignore this distractive post because he refuses to address the OP.

This actually is one of the most moronic posts that I've ever seen on this forum.

Everyone with any common sense and honesty knows you cannot take one passage
and make a doctrine out of it.

And, in this case, the poster is so embarrassed that all he can do is attack the one with the common sense.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

This actually is one of the most moronic posts that I've ever seen on this forum.

Everyone with any common sense and honesty knows you cannot take one passage
and make a doctrine out of it.

And, in this case, the poster is so embarrassed that all he can do is attack the one with the common sense.
.

Surprise, surprise! Does he deal with the OP any more this time than last time? Nope! Try again! The OP is clear and plain and easy to understand.

 

[The Biblicist]

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is an antinomian term born out of the independent fundamentalist movement. It was used by those who believed that once a person claimed to be converted (by saying the sinner's prayer or asking Jesus into their heart) that they should never question their salvation regardless of their behavior. A person could live their entire life, post-salvation experience, as a godless heathen but be assured they are saved. The idea that obedience to Christ and good works as an evidence of salvation (Ephesians 2:10) were rejected as part of a works-based salvation.

Perseverance of the Saints is a more accurate term. True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are indeed saved and nothing will take their salvation from them. However, true believers will display evidence of their conversion in many different ways. They will love the saints (John 13:34, 35; 1 John 3:23). They will perform good works (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; 1 John 3:18). They will follow God's commands (John 14:15; Titus 3:1; 2 John 1:6).

Perseverance does not mean perfection. We still have abiding sin. The flesh still wars against the Spirit. But the person who claims to belong to Christ, and who displays no work of the Spirit in their life, is standing on shaky ground.

I have no way to verify the accuracy of your historical idea concerning the acronym OSAS. You may be correct, I do not know. However, the acroynym is scripturally correct regardless of its historical origin. Those who are once saved are always saved. The acronym does not say those once PROFESSED to be saved are always saved but those saved.

In regard to perseverance, I reject the Reformed view as it is nothing but making works the necessary consequence. I reject Dr. John McArthur's view as well as his opponents "free grace" view as they are IMO both wrong for several reasons.

 

[BobRyan]

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All given do in fact come - all of them - v. 37

2. "OF All " given none in fact are lost - nothing - v. 39

But they are "given" through foreknowledge according to Romans 8 they are not "given" through arbitrary selection as Calvinism goes on to "imagine".

So while it is true that this text in John 10 does NOT say "ALL DRAWN will come to Christ" - John 12:32 does say that God "Draws ALL unto Him".

So then the argument for Calvinism tries a bait-and-switch. They know they have not the much needed "All DRAWN will come to Me" so they settle for "All GIVEN".

But there is no "I have GIVEN ALL" or any other such text used by Arminians. So then we are talking about a qualified group that are "given" and upon what basis? Romans 8 shows us one -- the "Foreknowledge of God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Reformed]

In regard to perseverance, I reject the Reformed view as it is nothing but making works the necessary consequence. I reject Dr. John McArthur's view as well as his opponents "free grace" view as they are IMO both wrong for several reasons.

So, you do not believe that true believers will bear fruit, which includes good works (Eph. 2:10)? And if a professed believer lives like a pagan, without any outward evidence of being a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), that does not call into question their profession?

 

[Dr. Walter]

So, you do not believe that true believers will bear fruit, which includes good works (Eph. 2:10)? And if a professed believer lives like a pagan, without any outward evidence of being a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), that does not call into question their profession?

I believe true believers will bear some degree of fruit which may not always be manifest as in the case of Lot. What they do persevere in is faith in their redeemer as shown by the book of Job as that faith is a creative work of God (2 Cor. 4:6) which is kept by the power of God and not of us.

 

[Reformed]

I believe true believers will bear some degree of fruit which may not always be manifest as in the case of Lot. What they do persevere in is faith in their redeemer as shown by the book of Job as that faith is a creative work of God (2 Cor. 4:6) which is kept by the power of God and not of us.

With all due respect I do not know what your explanation means.

As I cast a watchful eye over the flock God has entrusted to my oversight, I am looking for spiritual growth. I understand that growth is often marked by intense struggle with sin. Sometimes it seems that sin is winning. But that is only if we look at snapshots in time. I will tell you quite honestly that if a person professes Christ, and I see no desire for God, His word, the saints; if I see no struggle against sin, then I fear for that person's spiritual state. The Bible I read tells me that if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new (2 Cor. 5:17).

 

[BobRyan]

I believe true believers will bear some degree of fruit which may not always be manifest as in the case of Lot. What they do persevere in is faith in their redeemer as shown by the book of Job as that faith is a creative work of God (2 Cor. 4:6) which is kept by the power of God and not of us.

Both Calvinists and Arminians would admit that the one who "perseveres firm until the end will be saved".

The question - the doubt, the debate is in areas like a case where the fully forgiven experience "forgiveness revoked" when they turn against following God's Word.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

==================================

Both groups will agree that God "foreknows" such a person and such a life and such future events even before the Fully Forgiven saint - turns to rebellion and unforgiveness.

God does nothing in total ignorance.

Those "given" by God are "Given" in full light of God's knowledge - including His foreknowledge so the text is not violated.

 

[BobRyan]

So, you do not believe that true believers will bear fruit, which includes good works (Eph. 2:10)? And if a professed believer lives like a pagan, without any outward evidence of being a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), that does not call into question their profession?

In Matt 7 "they are known by their fruits" -- 'not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but He who DOES the will of My Father".

Some will admit that "Love for God" and "Love for our neighbor" is the outward sign of a true saint. But then John goes on to define how it is known that such an esoteric claim is in fact valid.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the SAINTS here are they that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If you go to a bank and they show you a vault with such high security measures that it is confidently claimed that "nobody will be able to steal your money from this vault" - do you then imagine to youself "If I give them my money they will not let me use it as I wish"??

That is how OSAS spins this point.

In fact OSAS claims "there is no such thing as forgiveness revoked" (and many have posted that idea over and over).

Yet we just read Matt 18 and Matt 6 to find that sure enough the tradition of OSAS is dead.

in Christ,

Bob