New Birth prior to the cross - Gal. 4:29

[kyredneck]

‘Pre-cross’, there were more Gentiles born from Zion above than there were Jews.

….more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:1

….more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband Gal 4:21

…other sheep I have, which are not of this fold… Jn 10:16

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfil the word of God,
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God.
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Ps 87

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”, and the question is asked, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?” [Ro 3:1] Dispensationalists in particular have problems accepting this truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

‘Pre-cross’, there were more Gentiles born from Zion above than there were Jews.

….more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:1

….more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband Gal 4:21

…other sheep I have, which are not of this fold… Jn 10:16

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfil the word of God,
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God.
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Ps 87

The children of the heavenly Zion have always been the true Jews, the real Israel, thus we’re told, “they are not all Israel, that are of Israel, neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children”, and the question is asked, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?” [Ro 3:1] Dispensationalists in particular have problems accepting this truth.

I am not a dispensationalist but I reject your view that the church is Israel. We have been around this bush before so no need repeating it. Abraham was promised BOTH.

 

[kyredneck]

I am not a dispensationalist but I reject your view that the church is Israel. We have been around this bush before so no need repeating it. Abraham was promised BOTH.

If you look a little closer you'll see that I did not say 'the church is Israel'. I said those born from above are the real Israel, and always have been.

Ideally, the church should be comprised only of those born from above.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If you look a little closer you'll see that I did not say 'the church is Israel'. I said those born from above are the real Israel, and always have been.

Ideally, the church should be comprised only of those born from above.

True, but that doesn't negate the promises made to Abraham for physical Israel -- the remnant among the nation.

 

[kyredneck]

43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14

Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56

My bible says there are no unfulfilled promises, it's a long done deal from ancient times under the Old Covenant. It also says that under the New Covenant:

For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hando
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21

COnsult your Bible for the boundaries God gave Israel. They have never occupied all that land, because they were disobedient to God as to driving the unbelievers from that land. Yes, He gave the land. They failed -- essentially, refused -- to possess it completely. The day the remnant will, indeed, possess all He gave them is yet to come. That will be in His millennial reign, when the new Temple will lack the Ark, because He Himself will be seated on the throne of the Earth.

 

[kyredneck]

COnsult your Bible.....

It says, "not one thing hath failed....all are come to pass....not one thing hath failed thereof".

 

[pinoybaptist]

I am not a Primitive Baptist and I do not believe in the two seed theory. Although I believe there are only TWO kinds of people on earth - those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" and those "in the flesh" are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:9. Also I do not believe there is any salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12; 10:43; Heb. 4:2) and those who teach pre-cross saints were only "in the flesh" are either denying they were saved or asserting they were saved OUTSIDE OF CHRIST.

like I said, almost like which is different from being like one. and you're right, you're not a Primitive Baptist. I read some of your other posts.

 

[kyredneck]

Some of his soteriology is similar to PBs...or at least he comes across that way sometimes....

 

[pinoybaptist]

Some of his soteriology is similar to PBs...or at least he comes across that way sometimes....

yes, he does.
I like him better than some on here who don't appear to care what Scripture teaches if it doesn't square with what they teach.
whether consciously or not, I don't know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

yes, he does.
I like him better than some on here who don't appear to care what Scripture teaches if it doesn't square with what they teach.
whether consciously or not, I don't know.

LOL..... Oh yea you do.....and I agree, at least he consults scriptures & he keeps it consistent. These other guys are all over the boards. I need to tighten up more myself, but I'm also very young in the faith & even the BB provides some teachable moments....caveat: when you wade through all the misappropriations of scripture & "Wing Nut" Theology.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It says, "not one thing hath failed....all are come to pass....not one thing hath failed thereof".

I said consult it, not read it selectively.

Exodus 23, NASB
31 "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you."​

But Israel never occupied the land of Gaza, nor did they have the land north from Mt. Carmel up to Sidon, as God promised. They also did not drive from the land the inhabitants God told them to drive out. Is it any wonder that these very lands are the ones from which Israel is still plagued by enemies today? And yes, this land will be given to them, whether man says so today or not.

 

[kyredneck]

I said consult it, not read it selectively.

What's it say about the testimony of two or three witnesses? I produced three different passages that clearly state that the promises made to DNA Israel are a long done deal from ancient times under the Old Covenant, there are no unfulfilled promises concerning Israel after the flesh.

31 "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you."

25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, that he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. 2 Chron 9

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, that he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. 2 Chron 9

Take note: This land was not given to Israel by God. Again, consult your Bible -- and my earlier post quoting Exodus 23:31/

Two, you are making assumptions that force God's word to contradict itself, something it never does. Your are joining an increasing -- alarmingly increasing -- number of advocates of some kind of replacement theology, who have most notably been using a misinterpretation of Joshua 21:43- 45 as a proof-text, which they believe nullifies God' s land promises to Israel. They present God as Someone who is looking to discharge promises, in a legalistic way, by, in essence saying, " I have fulfilled the letter of the law on that one, now I can mark it off of my list of obligations." They claim that God has discharged all His promises to Israel regarding the land because of the statement in Joshua 21.

In the process of making this claim, they either ignore or claim that God' s eternal and perpetual promises to Israel about her land are no longer in force today. They want to do away with Israel and they think they have found a biblical passage that supports their un-biblical notion. At least, that' s what they think.

No serious and careful biblical commentator takes such an understanding of this passage in this convoluted, misguided manner. That all of Israel' s land promises have forever been fulfilled in Joshua make no sense. Instead, most commentators see the opposite problem, as noted by John Calvin who says, "How then can these two things be reconciled, that God, as he had promised, gave possession of the land to the people, and yet they were excluded from some portion by the power or obstinate resistance of the enemy?" Calvin does not see this fulfilling God' s land obligations to Israel instead he sees the opposite problem. Calvin offers the following solution:

In order to remove this appearance of contradiction, it is necessary to distinguish between the certain, clear, and steadfast faithfulness of God in keeping his promises, and between the effeminacy and sluggishness of the people of Israel, in consequence of which the benefit of the divine goodness in a manner slipped through their hands. The whole issue comes down to this, that it was owing entirely to their own cowardice that they did not enjoy the divine goodness in all its fullness and integrity.

The emphasis of this summary statement in the book of Joshua must be seen against the backdrop of the Lord' s overall charge and promise to give them the land, as clearly stated in Joshua 1:2-1. Moses' successor is recording the historical facts that God was faithful, even when the tribes of Israel were only partially true to their word. Even given the fact that many a tract of country still remained in the hands of the Canaanites, the promise that the land of Canaan should be given to the house of Israel for a possession had been fulfilled to the extent Joshua could make such a statement, for God had not promised the immediate and total destruction of the Canaanites, but only their gradual extermination. This is found just ahead of my previously quoted passage from Moses' writings.

Exodus 23, NASB
29 "I will not drive them out before you in a single year, that the land may not become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you.
30 "I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land.​

The boundaries outlined in the next verse are fully developed in Numbers.

Numbers 24
1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
2 "Command the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you enter the land of Canaan, this is the land that shall fall to you as an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to its borders.
3 'Your southern sector shall extend from the wilderness of Zin along the side of Edom, and your southern border shall extend from the end of the Salt Sea eastward.
4 'Then your border shall turn direction from the south to the ascent of Akrabbim and continue to Zin, and its termination shall be to the south of Kadesh-barnea ; and it shall reach Hazaraddar and continue to Azmon.
5 'The border shall turn direction from Azmon to the brook of Egypt, and its termination shall be at the sea.
6 'As for the western border, you shall have the Great Sea, that is, its coastline; this shall be your west border.
7 'And this shall be your north border: you shall draw your border line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor.
8 'You shall draw a line from Mount Hor to the Lebo-hamath, and the termination of the border shall be at Zedad;
9 and the border shall proceed to Ziphron, and its termination shall be at Hazar-enan. This shall be your north border.
10 'For your eastern border you shall also draw a line from Hazar-enan to Shepham,
11 and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain ; and the border shall go down and reach to the slope on the east side of the Sea of Chinnereth.
12 'And the border shall go down to the Jordan and its termination shall be at the Salt Sea. This shall be your land according to its borders all around.' "​

Rather than expect you to get out a map and sextant, I'll post this photo, the red line representing the land God gave in the above passage.

Even though the Israelites never came into undisputed possession of the whole of the promised land, to the full extent of the boundaries laid down, never conquering Tyre and Sidon for example, the promises of God were no more broken on that account than they were through the circumstance, that after the death of Joshua and the elder his contemporaries, Israel was sometimes hard pressed by the Canaanites, since the complete fulfilment of this promise was inseparably connected with the fidelity of Israel to the Lord. Lest you claim they were not faithful let me remind you, there has always been a faithful remnant, and there remains one to this day. Joshua 21:43-45 must be understood within the overall context of the entire book, not simply trotted out as prooftext, which if not examined within the broader context of Joshua, appear to the uninformed and those who lack understanding to be an argument of disinheritance of the land from Israel. It is not, and the promises are still in effect.

 

[kyredneck]

....Rather than expect you to get out a map and sextant,.....

I don't need a map and a sextant.

43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14

Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56

For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I don't need a map and a sextant.

No, but you do need to stop putting the Bible in conflict with itself. Your verses do not prove the promises to Israel are negated or passed to the church, no matter how much you want them to. You don't want to see how these verses are to be read and understood, so be it. It does not separate us as brothers. Unless we allow it to do so.

 

[kyredneck]

...Your are joining an increasing -- alarmingly increasing -- number of advocates of some kind of replacement theology, who have most notably been using a misinterpretation of Joshua 21:43- 45 as a proof-text, which they believe nullifies God' s land promises to Israel..

What's so 'alarming' about it? If it's God's intent to let Israel take more Palestinian land, how is my theology going to hinder that?

You speak as if there's some great danger here.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What's so 'alarming' about it? If it's God's intent to let Israel take more Palestinian land, how is my theology going to hinder that?

You speak as if there's some great danger here.

1) He gave it to Israel 3,400 years ago, so it doesn't belong to the Palestinians. Your theology doesn't hinder it, but it might prevent others from understanding what is about to happen.

2) That is the danger.

 

[Winman]

This is one of the most abused scripture texts in the entire Bible. The promises that he has in view are spelled out in no uncertain terms in Hebrews 11:13-16

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

They will not receive the NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH with its NEW JERUSALEM in glorified bodies WITHOUT US. Not until the resurrection.

However, every aspect of salvation short of glorification they have received. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and the whole chapter declares they WALKED in the Spirit as that is the walk of faith. They were justified by faith (Rom. 4). They were progressively sanctified by the Spirit as that is the WALK of faith. They were regenerated, Spirit indwelt (union with God) or eternal life but they were not glorified and have not obtained the new city and won't until we do.


What????? David's body saw corruption but Jesus told the Sadducees that God is not the God of the dead but of the living demanding that all Old Testament saints were LIVING. Jesus told Mary BEFORE the cross that he that liveth and believe in me SHALL NEVER DIE -"believeth thou this?" Well, Percho? "believeth THOU this?"

The problem here is that we are directly told that believers did not have the Spirit yet.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Holy Spirit was not given to believers until Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, yet many thousands believed on Jesus without the indwelling Spirit.

Yes, Abraham was "alive" because righteousness was imputed him way back in Genesis 15:6. He was spiritually alive, his sins were forgiven. But he did not receive the Spirit and did not ascend to heaven until after Jesus rose from his dead. Scripture shows Abraham was waiting in the heart of the earth in Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. We also see Samuel was in the heart of the earth in 1 Samuel 28.

It is believed after Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat that he returned to Abraham's bosom and led those saints to heaven. This is when they also received the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

After this we no more read of saints in the heart of the earth, but are told that believers go directly to heaven when they die.

You cannot manipulate the scriptures to force it to teach what you desire it to say.

 

[kyredneck]

1) He gave it to Israel 3,400 years ago, so it doesn't belong to the Palestinians.

You do know that DNA shows the Jews and Palestinians are basically same genetic makeup, don't you?

40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Mt 24

The true 'left behind' folks that were spared the exile and now, 2000 years later, their blood kin have returned and through wile & guile, hook & crook, apartheid & genocide, are slowly surely stealing their land and making them refugees.