New Birth prior to the cross - Gal. 4:29

[percho]

The problem here is that we are directly told that believers did not have the Spirit yet.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Holy Spirit was not given to believers until Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, yet many thousands believed on Jesus without the indwelling Spirit.

Yes, Abraham was "alive" because righteousness was imputed him way back in Genesis 15:6. He was spiritually alive, his sins were forgiven. But he did not receive the Spirit and did not ascend to heaven until after Jesus rose from his dead. Scripture shows Abraham was waiting in the heart of the earth in Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. We also see Samuel was in the heart of the earth in 1 Samuel 28.

It is believed after Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat that he returned to Abraham's bosom and led those saints to heaven. This is when they also received the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

After this we no more read of saints in the heart of the earth, but are told that believers go directly to heaven when they die.

You cannot manipulate the scriptures to force it to teach what you desire it to say.

In Gen 12:3 God told Abraham that in his seed all the families/kindred of the earth would be blessed. That is the seed of the promise of God, the Christ, singular of Gal 3:16. It is the hearing of the faithfulness of God toward Abraham, that from his loins an heir would come, Isaac through whom the seed of promise, the Christ, would come that made Isaac the only begotten of Abraham by which Abraham was declared righteous.

The seed, the Christ, for whom the promise of God was made, the hope of eternal life, would by inheritance receive the promise, eternal life the glory of God. That life comes by resurrection from the dead incorruptible. The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

When the seed of the promise received the promise of God eternal life he also received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33 that is the renewing of the Holy Spirit of Titus 3:5

Then and only then could the families, kindred, nations of the earth be given the blessings of Abraham for then because of the faith, the promise of the Holy Spirit could be given to men.

Read Gal 3. That is what it is about. It ain't about what you believe it is about what God the Father through Jesus the Son of God did by which you can be a believer, just like father Abraham. If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's children and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29 You become of the faith of Abraham, which was his seed Isaac through whom the seed would come, the Christ. That is why Issac and Christ are called only begotten, born of woman. Isaac the only begotten of Abraham and Jesus the Christ the only begotten of God.

Then those who are given are, sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13,14 The very same thing Jesus the Christ inherited. Those given the Spirit of adoption are: Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Be just like Christ.

As touching the resurrection of the dead God is the God of the living.

Jesus had to go away in death, receive regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, be glorified, before the Holy Spirit could be shed/poured out on men.

Abraham is still dead in faith. David is still dead in faith. The little unnamed son of David is dead in faith.

The captivity that was led captive is death. Jesus died, descended to the lowest parts of the earth, Hades, after three days was regenerated to life, ascended to the right hand of God, received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, was accepted for us. He led captivity, captive.

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Have I manipulated any scriptures?

All of scripture is based upon: The Lamb slain from/before the foundation of the world and the promise of God, who cannot lie, made before time began, the hope of eternal life.

The covenant of God. The covenant of the Father and the Son.

 

[percho]

The only new birth I know of.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18 KJV
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 1:15 YLT

that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; Rom 8:21

 

[Dr. Walter]

The problem here is that we are directly told that believers did not have the Spirit yet.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The history behind the scene which provides the background for this text is very interesting. They would bring water up to the temple and then pour it out unto God. This promise has to do with the new house of God, not with individual salvation.

Indeed all the passages used by those who hold your position contextually are applied to water baptized believers John prepared for Christ to form into the new public house of worship composed of living stones.

Your position requires many contradictions to explicit teachings of Scripture:

1. Salvation OUTSIDE of Christ prior to the cross/Pentecost
2. A third type of human being neither born of flesh ("in the flesh") or born of Spirit ("in the Spirit).
3. Spiritual death of all prior to the Cross or Pentecost as spiritual life is impossible apart from spritual UNION with God as spiritual death is separation from God.
4. People capable of walking by faith (Heb. 11) but not walkng in the Spirit.
5. Another salvation other then the everlasting covenent of redemption (heb. 13:20).
6. Repudiation of general truths (Jn. 14:6; Heb. 4:2; Acts 4:12; Rom. 8:9) applicable to all generations.
7. Repudiation of Abraham as the example of justification by faith, sanctification by faith and gospel faith for ALL WHO BELIEVE (Rom. 4:11-12; Gal. 3:6-8).

And the list goes on. You confuse the different ways the Spirit works with men such as coming upon men as this is a New Testament work as well (Acts 8:14) which always deals with POWER and GIFTS to serve God and NEVER indwelling.

 

[pinoybaptist]

..................................................
Jesus had to go away in death, receive regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, be glorified, before the Holy Spirit could be shed/poured out on men.

............................

would you mind elaborating some more on this thought, particularly the ones I highlighted, with Scriptures that support each other ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

would you mind elaborating some more on this thought, particularly the ones I highlighted, with Scriptures that support each other ?

helllllloooooowwww ??? anybody there ?

 

[percho]

would you mind elaborating some more on this thought, particularly the ones I highlighted, with Scriptures that support each other ?

Yes.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

For sure we can see here that something had to take place or the Comforter, the Holy Spirit would not be sent.

Jesus was about to die. Jesus would be dead three days, Jesus after three days would be raised from the dead, Jesus would ascend to the Father.

In John 17:5 Jesus prays; And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here we have the Son of God, Jesus standing or keeling on the earth praying to his Father in heaven, praying to be glorified.

The following is stated in 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, (the Father) that raised him (Jesus) up from the dead, and gave him glory; (that which Jesus had prayed to the Father for.) that your faith and hope might be in God. -----Compare--- Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:3,4

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:2,3

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:16,17 --- if Christ did not die for our sins and if the Father did not raise him from the dead there is no faith and there is no giving of the Holy Spirit. He had to go away in death and be raised from the dead and ascend to the Father to be accepted for us.

Now.

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

From that passage what took place before the shedding forth of the Spirit?
Jesus, received from the Father the promise of he Holy Spirit. What had taken place before that? God had raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. Jesus said for a man to enter the kingdom of God he must be born of the flesh and that which has been born of the flesh must be born of the Spirit.

We call the gospel the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul put it this way in 1 Cor 15:1,3,4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Cor 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. ---- Jesus came into the world like the figure of him the first man Adam, a living soul, died and was resurrected the last Adam quickening Spirit.

That which was done by God the Father through his Son Jesus of Nazareth is how our salvation has been wrought. How we are saved. 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Titus 3:5,6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; ----- says exactly the very same thing as Acts 2:32,33 and all the above

What took place before the Spirit was shed on us? The renewing of the Holy Spirit. What took place before that? Washing of regeneration. What did the regeneration wash away? Our sins in the blood he willingly shed in death.

Faith is what took place concerning what was foreordained before the foundation of the world and the promise of God, who cannot lie which was made before the world began;

Jesus Christ the Son of God as of a lamb without spot and without blemish was obedient unto death even the death of the cross, though not without much agony and Jesus by inheritance received the promise See Gal 3:18,19,16 thereby becoming Faith, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.


The word for regeneration is used only twice in the word. Titus speaking of Jesus and Matt. speaking of those who follow him in the regeneration.

 

[kyredneck]

The Bib is banned, the Doc is back.

?????? Oh well.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Bib is banned, the Doc is back.

?????? Oh well.

Whhhaatttt?!?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That this thread has gone on for 49 posts now is ridiculous. There couldn't possibly be a "new birth" prior to the cross. It's impossible.

New birth comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit did not permanently indwell any of the Old Testament saints except John the Baptist. Jesus even said,

John 16, NASB
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."​

So while there is righteousness imputed to the Old Testament saints for their belief, they are not "born again" because they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They are not resurrected until the end of the millennial reign, unlike those of us in this, the church age, who are so indwelt.

End of argument.

 

[pinoybaptist]

okay.
so far, what I have gleaned, not learned, from the counter arguments is that there are Christians who believe heaven was first populated by unregenerate saints.
okay, I can understand redeemed but unregenerate saints being born after the cross because God named who His saints were and wrote their names in His book and covered them with the shed blood of Christ at the cross and regenerates them, WITH HIS SPIRIT, NOT THE GOSPEL, in HIS OWN TIME APART FROM ANY MEANS.
But I cannot understand how God would let unregenerate saints dwell in His kingdom before the cross. Praise, worship, and thanksgiving comes from a regenerate soul, not a redeemed one.
So what you all basically have yourselves saying is that God had in His presence
those who DO NOT KNOW HIM, who CANNOT OR WILL NOT PRAISE HIM WHERE HIS VERY THRONE IS LOCATED, and who have the POTENTIAL TO BE DISOBEDIENT TO HIM.
My, my, He must have had His hands full trying to get into control packs and packs of hybrid goats-sheep. lol.
:tongue3:
UNLESS, He designates them to some kind of a holding cell where the Spirit will indwell them after the cross.
That should include Moses, Abraham, Samson (this guy must really be a handful), David, Jonathan, the patriarchs, Rahab, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Micah, and an innumerable company of redeemed saints from all over the world of their respective times.
And, most of all, these counter-arguments have uncovered something.
Jesus lied.
Didn't Jesus say: with God, nothing shall be impossible ?
Well, we just found something impossible for God to do, besides go against His own nature and character, of course.
He can create worlds and worlds and universes and design intricacies like the world we live in and all its creatures, SIMPLY BY SPEAKING, but, He cannot possibly grant regeneration, IN HIS TERMS, to people whom He declared He loved from the foundation of the world.
Once again, the picture of a tweedle-de-dy, nail biting God, comes into my mind.
I guess I'll have to backslide for a while.
I can't bow my knees and cry, Holy, to such a God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

oh, and in relation to somebody's post, Jesus being regenerated.....lemmesee, here you have the source of life and light, needing a ... regeneration ? pardon me, I'm no theologian, and like my country-boy pastor says, "barely shot past third grade, y'all" nor do I know how to dissect and trisect the mysterious Greek language, but, could it be possible the word "regeneration" is being misunderstood or misapplied here somehow ?

Oh, I understand the dead BODY being brought back to life, but there's something arguable about Jesus needing regeneration that I couldn't put my arthritic fingers on just yet.

maybe I need a cup of dark chocolate....too early here in Cali...

well, there you go, my friend and brother "thisnumberisdisconnected"...what is this, the 51st post on this fascinating subject ?

 

[kyredneck]

....There couldn't possibly be a "new birth" prior to the cross. It's impossible.....

This sort of confusion is exactly why I abhor dispensationalism. There's nothing 'new' about any of the spiritual tenets of the 'new' covenant, it's new only because the first has been made old:

In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old.......Heb 13:13

God doesn't change, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. The Spirit has always blown where He wills, God has never been a respecter of persons, and in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, has been acceptable to him.

The first covenant was ADDED (casting a shadow of the good things of the Everlasting Covenant behind it):

What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.....Gal 3:19,

And then it was removed:

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:7

These 'new' things of the New Covenant are 'new' only because they were mysteries that had not hitherto before been revealed. The 'new' is actually not 'new', it is revealed mystery.

 

[kyredneck]

That this thread has gone on for 49 posts now is ridiculous. There couldn't possibly be a "new birth" prior to the cross. It's impossible.

New birth comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit did not permanently indwell any of the Old Testament saints except John the Baptist. Jesus even said,

John 16, NASB
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."​

So while there is righteousness imputed to the Old Testament saints for their belief, they are not "born again" because they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They are not resurrected until the end of the millennial reign, unlike those of us in this, the church age, who are so indwelt.

End of argument.

Lol! End of argument?!?

You actually believe 'born of the Spirit' in Jn 3 is the same as 'clothed with power' in Jn 16, Lu 24:29, and Pentecost? There's that confusion again.

 

[preacher4truth]

Good answer kyredneck. Some don't have this knowledge though.

David could have never sought God as per Psalm 27, nor could he have been one who was after God's heart without being born from above. It's apparent he was 'born again' and this thing Nicodemus missed in Scripture -- salvation comes from God and Him alone by His choosing and His grace, is never earned because it is unconditionally given by God and always has been.

 

[kyredneck]

Why would NT saints need regenerating and OT saints not need it? Was there something better about the OT folks that they never required it like we do?

 

[kyredneck]

Whhhaatttt?!?

...heehee, me and pinoy was commenting on how similar The Bib gets to the PBs sometimes, maybe he couldn't bear the thought and decided to end it right there.....

 

[Allan]

There can be no eternal life apart from spirtiual union with God and there can be no spiritual union with God without the indwelling Spirit of God as all who are without such are "none of his" - Rom. 8:9

Last time you brought this up you couldn't provide solid biblicale evidence and instead used poor allusion to proof-text it.

The New Birth and Spiritual union with God are necessary. However Spiritual union with God does not necessitate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet in the NT it has become part of the promise, where as initially (OT) it was not.

In the NT we have a promise for it, in the OT there is no promise for it... but both provide the promisse of life and union with God

 

[percho]

The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What is that the biblical definition of? Faith
Theoretically would that always be the definition of, the faith, or would the definition change according to context?

For by grace are ye saved through the faith. Eph 2:8

Does the above definition above apply in Eph. 2:8

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2:12,13

Is that the same grace that saved us found in Eph. 2:8 through the faith, defined in Hebrews 11:1

The faith is spoken of in Gal. 3:23,25. There also should it be defined as it is in Hebrews 11:1? The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

In Gal 3:23 Before the faith came. Before the coming of the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen; Under the law they were.
In Gal. 3:25 After the faith having come. After the coming of, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen; No more under the law were they. Now they are under something else. Guess what?

Grace. The grace by which salvation was brought.

What was different about Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ the Son of the living God before and after the death and resurrection of him?


What had been determined, foreordained before the foundation of the world?
What was promised by the God who cannot lie before the world began?

Why was the promise for, the hope of eternal life rather than for eternal life?

Was it because for the promise to be inherited the death must come through obedience unto death by the one that was to die?

Did the faith come when Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross and then by inheritance, becoming the firstborn from the dead, he became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Romans 12:3
Did that take place by generation?
Who was the generator.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:4 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Is that regeneration?
By whom was the regeneration done?
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:21

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

When? When did the Father give to the Son to have life in himself?


Relative to the OP. Neither the OT saints or the NT saints have been regenerated. The OT saints were called unto the faith to come. After the faith did come we could be given, therefore receive the Holy Spirit. We are wrought for regeneration being in Christ by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.