Featured Do these scriptures deny human RESPONSIBILITY?

Ok. Romans 1:18 asserts that the lost world "holds down" or surpresses the light they are given. In Romans 1:18-32 there is no other assessment given other than supression of the light. In Romans 1:21-32 there is a distinct model of what hardening is and its downward spiral progression that begins with intentional surpression of light unto the point of hardening where the person takes delight in others rebelling against the light.

My point is that the light provided in Romans 1:19-20 finds no other response by the lost world then surpression and hardening. No other response to the light given by God in Romans 1:19-20 is to be found. If the lost condition or the fallen nature would make any other kind of response other than supression and hardening then why is it not mentioned?

I believe it is not mentioned because it is Paul's intent to prove what he says is his conclusion in Romans 3:9-20 that no lost person, Gentile or Jew seeks after God or responds by any good or righteous act toward God. Thus the fallen nature described in Romans 3:10-18 responds only by supression of light when exposed to light (Rom. 1:18-20) which leads to a progressive hardening (Rom. 1:21-32).

 

The only reason debates go on, innuendoes are hurled, and insults spoken is because everybody wants to speak of salvation as something which pertains only to the eternal destiny of the sinner's soul.

When we look at Scripture and its teaching about salvation that way, then what follows is an incorrect division of the Scriptures, and it doesn't matter which side of the two soteriology fences one is at, Arminianism or freewill, or Calvinism or Election.

Both agree that salvation is by grace through faith, but if faith is thrown into the mix then grace is no longer free. And in the matter of eternal salvation, grace is ALWAYS free and unattached to any other whether it be obedience, faith, submissiveness, etc.

When the others are thrown in whether by theology or in Scriptures, then one needs to examine very closely and in context whether the salvation being spoken about is the eternal destiny of the soul, or whether the salvation being spoken about is the TIMELY benefit of the redeemed sinner.

The problem is that both sides, freewillers and arminians, calvinists and electionists, want to apply the Scriptures to each and every man, woman, and child on this planet and in this time world.

Romans 15:4 and 1 Corinthians 10:12 clearly states that ALL scriptures are for OUR (as in the people of God, as in those who call on the Name of the Lord, as in those who apply the Name to themselves) benefit and learning.

For as long as we refuse to believe and accept that God would dare to include whom He wants included and exclude whom He wants excluded in both the matter of Eternity, and in the matter of Timely or Temporal salvation, then we can swear to high heavens that God is Sovereign and we can even have all angels shouting hallelujahs to our declaration and it will not matter because the fact is we have put into question His sovereignty.

 

I try to live by this saying; "We aren't saved by our feelings, but we're not saved without them".

 

GOOD POST....amen & amen :thumbsup:

BTW.... if you read Luthers book, Bondage of the Will.......he would agree with you.

 

There is just no way around John 20:31. Its as clear as the nose on our faces. Pre faith regeneration (life) is proven false with this one verse alone. Its baffling how anyone can read that and still hold to prefaith regeneration. Who would in their right mind would take 'by running you will lose weight' to mean you couldn't run unless you first lost weight?

 

Just for clarification sake, I do not believe in "pre faith regeneration." I believe that the act of regeneration IS in part supplying the "substance" of the hope that saving faith consists (Heb. 11:1; 2 Cor.4:6). This "substance" provided in regeneration is divine revelation of Jesus Christ as described by Christ in Matthew 16:17 and by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 and by Christ again in John 17:3.

In other words, spiritual life is inseparable from divine revelatory knowledge (Jn. 17:3) which is the creative act of God in the elect (2 Cor. 4:6) whereby saving faith is produced. So, saving faith and spiritual life are as inseparable as repentance is to faith - two sides of the same coin and SIMELTANEOUS in regard to chronological order but is in a cause and consequence relationship in regard to logical order just as repentance and faith are in a cause and consequence relationship in regard to logical order.

So there is no such thing as an unregenerated believer any more than there is such a thing as a regenerated unbeliever as that is impossible because the "substance" which provides the "hope" in faith IS the knowledge which IS spiritual life (Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6).

 

Trying to use a passage where none but the elect are mentioned (Heb. 11) is not the best method for trying to disprove that Romans 1:18-32 provides no other option to the obviously lost to light than suppression and progressive hardening. In addition look at the point Paul is trying to prove in Romans 1:18-3:8 as expressed clearly in Romans 3:9 which refers to the fallen nature as described in Romans 3:10-20 rather than divine intervention as in Romans 3:24-8:39.

 

First, hebrews 11 deals with the subject of faith whereas Romans 1:18-3:8 has a stated purpose in Romans 3:9 to prove all men are sinners by nature.

None are mentioned in Hebrews 11 who did not walk by faith. To assume they walked by faith from birth, or from the first point of ability to discern right from wrong is an assumption that Hebrews 11 provides NOTHING to support.

The term "all" and "none" cannot be found in hebrews 11 in regard to mankind but the terms "all" and 'none" and "the whole world" can be found in the direct conclusion to Romans 1:18-3:8 in Romans 3:9-23.

In short, you have absolutely no basis whatsoever to use Hebrews 11 to prove your point but I have every basis to use Romans 1:18-3:23 to prove my point because it deals with the UNIVERSAL condition of man BEFORE any kind of conversion experience. In contrast Hebrews 11 does not deal with ANY PRE-coversion condition of any of those mentioned.

Surely, you can see the obvious inequity of your choice of scripture???

 

Even Calvinists 'admit' that the "DRAWING OF GOD" (as seen in John 6 and John 12:32) fully ENABLES the ability to choose, to act - that depravity disables.

Turns out BOTH the Arminian and Calvinist view agree on the fact that the supernatural DRAWING of God - does enable choice.

So the point "remains".

The difference between the two is not that they do not think the Drawing enables choice - the differences are;

1. Arminians admit to John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL MEN unto ME" and the Calvinists limit it to the "arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7"

2. Arminians admit that the LOST are enabled to act while lost - and do not have to be zapped into the saved first - just DRAWN.

Here we see what the lost CANNOT do

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Those who claim they are not "able to subject themselves" to the Law of God - are claiming the position of the lost - "in the flesh".

However Romans 10 points out what the lost CAN do that "results in salvation". (And I think they can do it by the power of the Holy Spirit who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the born-again, not just the regenerate)

[FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]

And as the text states - salvation follows.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. You cannot deny that John 12:32 and John 16 "Exist" -- I don't think that is an option for a response to that post.

2. God said "I will place EMNITY (war) between the see of the serpent (satan's kingdom) and the seed of the woman (fallen mankind)"

So while it is true that the fallen nature is at war against God it is also true that supernaturally God places war between the fallen nature and the kingdom of darkness.

And so the supernatural work of God as noted in the texts above - becomes an important detail not to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, I refuse to make any further replies to your posts because I presented a complete and thorough repudiation of your view of John 12 and you could not and did not have any response EXCEPT just reassert your view. We thoroughly repudiated your interpretation of Revelation 3:20 and forced you to embrace the absolute unbiblical and rediculous idea that God "chastens" His enemies. Hence, there is no basis for thoughtful and objective communication between us and so I am not wasting my time any more with you. No hard feelings on my part just giving you my explanation why I will not be responding to your posts in the future as it would be an exercise of futility.

 

Sorry, I did not see that question. Yes, you are correct. My position does hinge on the distinction between natural and spiritual ability. In a recent post I went into great detail explaining that distinction. You probably missed it as I did your post.

The faculty of conscience is designed by God to naturally recognize light and then react to your response to that light. If you react favorably the conscience does not bother you or inflict guilty pangs but if you don't it inflicts guilty pain.

This light is of various types. There is the light of nature, instructive light of your cultural upbringing that may include various philosophical or religous mores. There is direct light of scripture. This is NATURAL ability to see and hear, thus RECONIZE light for what it is, but it is not the ability to respond favorably to what you see and hear in regard to light. Here is where another NATURAL aspect of your nature comes into the picture and that is your fallen nature or old heart. Due to its anti-light nature, or its enmity toward the ultimate source of light it always reacts negatively (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 3:10-18; 8:7-8) and that negative reaction is what begins the process of hardening. What is being hardened is your NATURAL ability to RECOGNIZE light. This hardening is a process that is quite complicated because hardening can be limited to a specific area or specific type and measure of light in one area of your life or in multiple areas of your life. Hardening can begin by simply choosing to IGNORE and to AVOID a specific exposure to some kind of light. It can be manifested by religous or philsophical attempts to explain away or reinterpret specific and limited aspects of light exposed to. It can be manifested by direct intense resistance to a specified light exposure which could lead to insanity or suicide or theological searing.

The complexity is shown in scripture as the entire process can be briefly summarized as in Psalm 1:1 or can be expanded in linear steps as in Romans 1:21-32 or as in Romans 2:1-5, 17-25.

Through this hardening process the natural ability to RECOGNIZE light is being lost. The giving of a new heart provides SPIRITUAL recognition, perception and postive response.

 

I said the natural man cannot respond FAVORABLY to any exposure of light but will always react UNFAVORABLY. What I mean by that is his reaction is always fostered from a wrong motive which is the root of sin. The reactions that men view as favorable are without the proper motive (1 Cor. 10:31) and therefore are never favorable reactions in the sight of God who looks upon the heart. If the heart motive is wrong the attitude, words and actions are wrong no matter how "good" they appear to men. Good motives originate only from a "good" heart and that kind of heart only originates in new birth.

 

1. Psa. 1:1 gives a short summary of the process of hardening

2. Romans 1:21-32 gives a more expanded summary of the process of hardening.

3. Romans 2:1-5 and 17-3:8 gives a specific AREA of hardening as does 1 Tim. 4:1-2.

However, the key point is that the fallen nature is without the proper motive to do "good" in God's sight and therefore its response to light is always skewed and part and parcel of the process of hardening.