The Design of the Atonement

[Tom Butler]

Tom, I was listening to the radio on the way home and the guy behind the mike said: the whole world is celebrating Christmas.

But we know that is not true.
Not even the whole of these United States is celebrating the birth of the Savior, how much more the whole world ?
lol.
Apparently, when encountering the word "world" in Scripture, one has to consider many other things, not the least of which is context, much like when one encounters the words "salvation" or "save".

Maybe a discussion of the word "world" would help here.

I counted 13 times in the New Testament where "world" is used to distinguish believers from unbelievers. (John 12:31, for example)

It is use of Gentiles to distinguish them from Jews (Ro 11:12)

It is used with reference to known people (John 12:19) When they said "the whole world has gone after him," the Pharisees certainly did not mean every human without exception.

It makes sense to me that in John 3:16 and I John 2:2 it refers to all men without distinction--that is, men of all nations, tribes and tongues. And that Christ died for Gentiles as well as Jews.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD...."
I John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole WORLD."

We already know that John 3:16 cannot mean that God loved all without exception, since Paul said in Romans 9:13 that God hated Esau.

I referred earlier to 2 Corinthians 5:19, where Paul says the "world" for whom Christ died was reconciled to him, and are not to have their trespasses imputed to them. In other words, they must receive the forgiveness He purchased for them. That can't refer to all without exception.

Hope this adds to our discussion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And yet, yes, Jesus Christ is still applying the atonement's power to those who are here in time, redeemed, saved for all eternity, but unsaved gospelly.
He has created an organism before He left, which He is continously building, and given these organisms the power of the Holy Spirit, as well as the gifts of preachers, pastors, teachers, and evangelists.
In these organisms, He resides and rules, AND DRAWS THOSE WHOM HE REDEEMED FROM ALL POINTS OF TIME, PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE and within these He saves, GOSPELLY, those whom He redeemed eternally.
But 'an enemy had planted chaff' within the wheat, doctrinally.

Yes....Id like to have people consider this scripture:
“Rejoice that your names are written in heaven” (Luke 10:20).

so in conclusion, to be written in The Lambs Book of Life is to be secure in God’s sovereign, electing love.

 

[percho]

Brother, I agree that Christ is our Passover. But beyond that, I can't comment of the rest of your post because I don't understand it. That's an area where I must admit my ignorance. I'm open to more enlightenment.

I believe Jesus is the Passover for the sin of the world.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

The feast of unleavened bread beginning the next day. We are unleavened by the blood of Christ being he was made alive again whereby his life was no longer in the blood of him. That is how atonement is made through the blood. Compare Lev 17:11 with 1 Cor 15:17 and Luke 24:39

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 1 John 1:7-9 tells us the blood continues to cleanse us.

The next feast, holy convocation, was the day of firstfruits when your weeks be out. Pentecost. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the people of God, the promised Holy Spirit Jesus had received from his Father, to be poured out.

That pouring out of the Holy Spirit is still going on to today. Therefore we are still in the day of firstfruits.

After the day of firstfruits, of God taking out a people for his name, will that be the end of salvation? Why call it first fruits if that is going to be the only fruits? Why not the day of fruits?

The next feast, holy convocation, is the feast of trumpets.

What takes place concerning those of the day of firstfruits, those who have the fristfruits of the Spirit, at the last trump? Can I assume the last trump will be associated with the feast of trumpets?

Do you think, let's say, this day will be associated with the last trump?
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Romans 8:19
What about this day? Is it the same?
“But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35,36

Will there be any, "saved," after that? Will there be any given the Holy Spirit after that? Will there be any more fruit?

 

[Tom Butler]

Thanks, perchco. Plenty to ponder, there. Lemme mull.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks, perchco. Plenty to ponder, there. Lemme mull.

Mull it over?!? Oey Vey!?! I donteven know whereto begin....maybe cause I'm a fairly new Christian but I don't understand how this ties to Atonement. And the gospel is not about confusion Percho but you have managed to confuse at least three people on this thread...that's just an observation...perhaps you could clarify.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Thanks, perchco. Plenty to ponder, there. Lemme mull.

awwwww.....you're such a kind soul, Tom. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

awwwww.....you're such a kind soul, Tom. :thumbs:

Note.... Tom's grandmother was a Primitive Baptist. Must have been a wise women ...in the way of women.:thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

awwwww.....you're such a kind soul, Tom. :thumbs:

You do know the history of the US militaries adopting Browning's design of a semi-automatic close combat weapon...namely the 1911 45 Cal.? Lol.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have to conclude that we can fool around with this theological stuff forever, but when it comes down to it, where the rubber meets the road that the Mind of God has already made His arrangements, has selected his people & will have them prepared as His own.

Ive not seen one person deny this in effect because its all there in the scriptures. Maybe you think you can tweak it, and maybe you can feel better about yourself if you feel you have a hand in your own salvation---fine, but just know this.....all these things concerning your salvation are already preordained so ......good luck with trying to influence the Supreme Being.

One can ask questions like, why doesnt God save everyone? thats a good common sense question because its seeking understanding rather than demanding that god submit to human standards of right and wrong...... but I dont have that answer & all I can come up with in scripture is Romans 9:15"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and compassion on whom I have compassion." Maybe thats just none of our business. maybe instead its our Faith that needs to grow. In genesis 18:25 Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Lastly, and Ive commented on this many times.....Why did the Lord destroy Sodom & save Nineveh? Why did he send the reluctant Jonah? all I know, cause I dont have pat answers, is that the prophet Micah provides me with some solis when he states in 6:8 "8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Im done here! Blessings to all.

 

[percho]

Mull it over?!? Oey Vey!?! I donteven know whereto begin....maybe cause I'm a fairly new Christian but I don't understand how this ties to Atonement. And the gospel is not about confusion Percho but you have managed to confuse at least three people on this thread...that's just an observation...perhaps you could clarify.

I will try.

The Passover and all the feasts God gave are relative to what God is doing.
That is: God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; from 2 Cor 5:19

The Passover was on the 14th. Fifty days counting the Sabbath following Passover was the day of firstfruits. God declared that day a holy convocation to be observed forever and it was on that day God gave them the law.

The law even though given on that day could not give life. It was added because of transgressions. It was the schoolmaster unto Christ. Christ will become the faith by which life can be given which begins with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit that brings life was poured out (given) on the day above, the day of firstfruits. Where as the Passover had died for all, the Spirit is given only to: Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

These are the firstfruits of the Spirit. The first God is calling to bring about salvation to. The ones during this time who can come to the Father through the Son are the ones the Father draws. No one can come to the Father but by me. J14:6 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: J6:44

It does not mean all others who God is not calling at this time will go to Hell.

There are other feast days that follow this day. I will try and show ya'll (I'm south of the Mason Dixon line) from scripture.

On the day of Pentecost God began to pour out on his called firstfruits the Spirit. The Jew first and also the Greek. Follow through the book of Acts.

Acts 15
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; ----- I pasted this to show the Jew first and also the Greek, Gentile. Now.

V14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. -- Began with the Jew then the Gentile.--
Began in the day of firstfruits. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us.

V15 The prophets wrote that that would take place. that is God would take out from the Jews and also the Gentiles a people for is name sake. I can give verses if you want.
That is still going on today. God is still taking out a people for his name. We are still in the day of fristfruits of the Spirit being poured out on those who God the Father draws to Jesus his Son.
V16 After this.
I will return and build.
This is the next feast, holy convocation. The appearing of the Lord. The resurrection/instant change of the firstfruits above to reign with Christ. The manifestation of the sons of God. ----- Ten days later there is another feast day, a holy convocaton. I do not know if the marriage feast of the Lamb, takes place before or after this day. I think before. However on this day is when I believe Satan will be bound that he will not be able to deceive the nations. On the fifteenth day the feast of tabernacles, David ruled over the whole of Israel and they will be regathered again, the time spoken of in Ezek 37. The two sticks. --- I believe that to be the tabernacle of David to be rebuilt.
V17 of Acts 15 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us (the firstfruits of the Spirit) the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

[Yeshua1]

again, we go back to the beginning.
to what God was doing.
He was writing names in a book.
More properly, these names are imprinted in His mind. Everyone of these individuals are known to Him from before the foundation of the world.
None of them knew Him, obviously.
The Scriptures also state that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Maybe the physical world has not been created yet, this time world we lived in, the fall of Adam had not happened yet, and the owners of those names have not been born yet, but, in as far as the One in Three was concerned, it was as good as done.
That blood was as good as shed, and those sins were as good as washed away.
Why ?
Because the One who decreed it is the God which eternity cannot even contain, how can finite time stop what He purposed to happen ?
That is why I said in another place, THOSE WHOSE NAMES WERE WRITTEN BY GOD IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE WERE NEVER HELL-BOUND.
How could they ?
It was God's purpose that they be His gifts to His Son, and His Son to theirs, and that they all be One in Him, and they all be with Him in Heaven as His Son.
Jesus Christ Himself said none will be lost, save the son of perdition.
Now, somebody's bound to jump in and say, didn't Christ Himself teach and talk more about hell than any other subject ?
Yes, He did.
But where is the Scripture that says He did so because He wanted to scare people into coming to Him ?
Rather, He spoke so much about hell, to magnify the grace and mercy that His Father bestowed on His own, and if you will accept it, for us IN THIS GENERATION, to understand what we were spared from.

What we need to further realize is that the eternal salvation and redemption of His children are totally PASSIVE, and all-encompassing and what I mean by that, for lack of a better term, is that EVERYONE for whom redemption has been authored, is REDEEMED already.
Eternally saved already ?
Yes.
Like I said, the cross is past, the blood is shed, and Jesus Christ now sits an Intercessor in Heaven for His people...ALL OF THEM.
Those who were born before Christ's time, those who were born during Christ's time, and those who were born and will be born after Christ's time, and OUR time.
The blood has already covered, atoned for, and washed each and everyone of them without regard to their statuses and circumstances in this time world.

Now, the question is, will all come to gospel knowledge of their God and Savior ?
Like Paul said, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", so the answer is no.

God had ordained and provided for them to get saved by the death of the Lord jesus, and in the Mind of God is a "done deal' from eternity past, but they actually get saved in real time when they receive jesus thru faith, as are sinners unreconciled to God until that happens!

 

[percho]

God had ordained and provided for them to get saved by the death of the Lord jesus, and in the Mind of God is a "done deal' from eternity past, but they actually get saved in real time when they receive jesus thru faith, as are sinners unreconciled to God until that happens!

Their actual redemption was bought in time specific?

I think that is what you are saying and I agree. That was when the faith came of Gal, 3:25

Those who had been under the law, a schoolmaster were no more under the law but were now under grace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Their actual redemption was bought in time specific?

I think that is what you are saying and I agree. That was when the faith came of Gal, 3:25

Those who had been under the law, a schoolmaster were no more under the law but were now under grace.

But f course, you are sure of that.....correct

 

[percho]

But f course, you are sure of that.....correct

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, Gal 3:23-25 YLT

and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; Gal 4:4,5 YLT

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him (Christ). For in that he (Christ) died, he (Christ) died unto sin once: but in that he (Christ) liveth, he (Christ) liveth unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, (Because Christ died) but under grace. (Because Christ lives being raised from the dead)Romans 6:9,10,14 KJV

Or in other words because the faith came in time specific.

I think I am sure of that.

 

[pinoybaptist]

God had ordained and provided for them to get saved by the death of the Lord jesus, and in the Mind of God is a "done deal' from eternity past, but they actually get saved in real time when they receive jesus thru faith, as are sinners unreconciled to God until that happens!

you are talking of two different groups here.
The mind of God (the book of life) was finished and populated with the names of His people, all of them, who will ever pass through this plane we call time.

These were covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (love it....somebody's bound to go down with apoplexy assuming he scours the jungles, so to speak....grrrrrr.....grrrrrr).

Some of them were born before the cross, some during the time of Christ, some after the cross, including our time, and they come from all tongues, nations, and tribes, in other words, WORLDWIDE, you see, God so loved the world ....
This is the first group.

We cannot limit the scope of God's redemption with the term "believers" since this term implies that only those who believe are covered by the blood of Christ.

Believers are the second group.
These, along with the first, have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (hehehehehe, having a great time with that phrase), with that redemption made physical here in time at the cross of Calvary.

However, not all in the first group will HEAR THE GOSPEL, and therefore be saved FROM THE EVILS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE UNTOWARD GENERATIONS (recall Peter's words to the crowd: save yourselves from this untoward generation). This is the salvation that the gospel provides, salvation from whatever current creed or non-creed, belief or unbelief, religion or lack of it, evils, and so on that the quickened elect child of God finds himself in when presented with the gospel.

I stop here because to some this is hard meat, and it MIGHT be to you (not saying it is).
I can go on if you like me to, later.

 

[Yeshua1]

you are talking of two different groups here.
The mind of God (the book of life) was finished and populated with the names of His people, all of them, who will ever pass through this plane we call time.

These were covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (love it....somebody's bound to go down with apoplexy assuming he scours the jungles, so to speak....grrrrrr.....grrrrrr).

Some of them were born before the cross, some during the time of Christ, some after the cross, including our time, and they come from all tongues, nations, and tribes, in other words, WORLDWIDE, you see, God so loved the world ....
This is the first group.

We cannot limit the scope of God's redemption with the term "believers" since this term implies that only those who believe are covered by the blood of Christ.

Believers are the second group.
These, along with the first, have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (hehehehehe, having a great time with that phrase), with that redemption made physical here in time at the cross of Calvary.

However, not all in the first group will HEAR THE GOSPEL, and therefore be saved FROM THE EVILS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE UNTOWARD GENERATIONS (recall Peter's words to the crowd: save yourselves from this untoward generation). This is the salvation that the gospel provides, salvation from whatever current creed or non-creed, belief or unbelief, religion or lack of it, evils, and so on that the quickened elect child of God finds himself in when presented with the gospel.

I stop here because to some this is hard meat, and it MIGHT be to you (not saying it is).
I can go on if you like me to, later.

There are ONLY one group of persons name din the bible though, as the Cross of Christ is the basis that God used to save ALL and ANY sinners daved by that act, and that grace is mediated out towards all those who received jesus thru faith!

THAT would be all of the elect, whom God foreknew and forechose to bring to salvation in Jesus...

before we received Him thru faith, were ALl enemies of God, Not reconciled back to him as of yet...

 

[percho]

There are ONLY one group of persons name din the bible though, as the Cross of Christ is the basis that God used to save ALL and ANY sinners daved by that act, and that grace is mediated out towards all those who received jesus thru faith!

THAT would be all of the elect, whom God foreknew and forechose to bring to salvation in Jesus...

before we received Him thru faith, were ALl enemies of God, Not reconciled back to him as of yet...

Here is the one group of people named in the bible.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, from Romans 11:32

V31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.--- these being Israel who are blinded.

V30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: --- Ye being the Gentiles

All are concluded in unbelief so God can have mercy on all, the last part of V32 that he might have mercy upon all.

So that the gifts and calling of God can come through mercy, rather than coming by repentance.

V29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Or as Paul puts this same thought in Galatians 3:22 YLT

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise (gifts &calling) by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.> Those who God through mercy have moved from unbelief unto belief. R11:29-32

BTW Gal 3:22 says the promise comes by faith of Christ not by faith from within man.

 

[Yeshua1]

you are talking of two different groups here.
The mind of God (the book of life) was finished and populated with the names of His people, all of them, who will ever pass through this plane we call time.

These were covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (love it....somebody's bound to go down with apoplexy assuming he scours the jungles, so to speak....grrrrrr.....grrrrrr).

Some of them were born before the cross, some during the time of Christ, some after the cross, including our time, and they come from all tongues, nations, and tribes, in other words, WORLDWIDE, you see, God so loved the world ....
This is the first group.

We cannot limit the scope of God's redemption with the term "believers" since this term implies that only those who believe are covered by the blood of Christ.

Believers are the second group.
These, along with the first, have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (hehehehehe, having a great time with that phrase), with that redemption made physical here in time at the cross of Calvary.

However, not all in the first group will HEAR THE GOSPEL, and therefore be saved FROM THE EVILS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE UNTOWARD GENERATIONS (recall Peter's words to the crowd: save yourselves from this untoward generation). This is the salvation that the gospel provides, salvation from whatever current creed or non-creed, belief or unbelief, religion or lack of it, evils, and so on that the quickened elect child of God finds himself in when presented with the gospel.

I stop here because to some this is hard meat, and it MIGHT be to you (not saying it is).
I can go on if you like me to, later.

Do you agree with paul that unless they hear the message about jesus, they shall not believe unto him and not be saved?