Featured Gonna Upset The Apple Cart

That is probably one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. When I first joined the Baptist church, I found the invitation refreshing after 27 years of going to a PCA church where the last song was sung, a choral refrain, then we marched out like stoic robots.

However, as time has gone on, one realizes that many invitations are a sales gimmick, and little to do with a genuine union with the Lord Jesus Christ. The ones I hate the most are the people that go up because a friend did, or the sermon hit by chance on a particular sin they are feeling guilty about at the moment. Younger people are especially venerable to the follow my friend up to the front syndrome.

So it generally goes like this. Lets sing 77 verses of "Just As I Am." While it is endlessly being sung, the pastor is shouting over the music phrases like "let go of that pew and come to Christ," or "maybe you are saved and want to get closer to God," or "join our church." One can neither hear the music or the message for the clashing of the two. For all the good that does, one might as well go up the aisle doing a skip to my lou to verses of 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall for an invitation song. That way, you can get in 99 verses instead of 77.

Your message about taking up the cross of Christ and living for Him is very well expressed. This is spiritual battle, between good and evil. Paul makes it quite clear when he describes putting on the armor of God. He is not kidding. He goes into detail each piece of the uniform to battle a roaring lion. It is a daily endeavor. Every sunrise starts a new day to live for Christ.

This is what Christianity is not, nor the local church. It is not a place to go on Sunday with a super glued smile on your face and ask everyone how they are doing. It is not a place to gather to gossip. It is not a center to stuff ones gut at pot luck time. It is not a social club to discuss where to go out to eat while thinking about it all through the sermon. It is certainly not a place to create your own personal comfort zone.

Church is a place to worship and honor the Lord. It is a place to gather to plan how to go tell others about the Gospel and extend a helping hand to those in need.

Invitations need to be radically changed. Not sure what form it would take, but after the sermon, invite people to come and talk to the pastor, elders, or deacons if the Spirit has lead them to do so, and leave that opportunity open to avoid an ending like the Presbyterian Church I described. On the other hand, it is time to take the circus atmosphere and the sales pitch out of the invitations.

 

The Roman's Road to Hell

The Roman's Road to Hell is in reality no plan of salvation at all. The very first time "Salvation" was identified in the New Testament, it was the very person of Jesus Christ (Luke 2:29, 30). The 1,2,3 bow the knee philosophy is exactly what God was talking about in Ezekiel 13:22, "Because with lies ye have made the heart o the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of THE WICKED, THAT HE SHOULD NOT RETURN FROM HIS WICKED WAY, BY PROMISING HIM LIFE". Failure to preach repentance, and press sinners to it, is damning this country, and filling the churches with lost religioneers!

 

:wavey::thumbsup:

 

This post is not true. Criticizing the so called Roman Road in order to be different serves no purpose. The Roman Road is nothing but a collection of verses from Scripture. Romans 3:10 and 3:23 clearly establish the need for a Savior, and the gap between a Holy God and sinful man. Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 give the solution to the problem. Eph 2:8-9 describes how salvation is given to the ones He chose. Romans 1:16 states the reason for our hope in Jesus Christ. Romans 5:8-9 tells us how Christ's work on the cross forgives us of our sins. Romans 10:9-10 and 13 give more insight to obtaining salvation and the salvation process. These verses mention confession as part of salvation. The ability to confess and repent would not even be possible without the work of the Holy Spirit. Romans 10:17 tells us how the Word of God is delivered to us. Here faith is mentioned, another gift of God. John 8:44 confirms that confession, faith, and grace are gifts of God. Romans 8:1, 9-11, and 16 gives characteristics of a saved person and evidence, as does the whole books of John 1, 2 and 3. 1 Cor 5:21 sums up the Gospel very well. Matt 10:32 needs to be read to reemphasize confession.

The following verses on repentance should be shown, 2 John 1:9, 2 Cor 7:10, Acts 3:19, Luke 13:3. The difference between Godly sorrow and sorry I got caught is a very crucial point to explain. Again, a gift of the Lord. Finally, the last of Matthew should be explained, that salvation is only the start of a glorious path to Christ and glory. Paul's salvation experience is an excellent to give of a salvation experience.

This is only the start. As time goes on, the life Jesus lead, His ministries, His sinless life, birth, death, Resurrection, and Second Coming are essential.

Now, having said all of that, which these verses are my Roman Road, would you please explain how talking to a lost person on this basis about Jesus Christ and the Gospel is, as you worded it, a plan on the road to hell, or from the pits of hell, however you and the other poster put it, has any basis in fact?

You seem to get the dance up to the altar during the last hymn with a salesman shouting demands over the music to come forward in the same category as telling someone the Good News. As is a usual practice on this board, you place the two subjects in one bucket, or paint them both with one stroke of the brush, and one has nothing to do with the other.

Saying something is creating a road to hell or is from the pits of hell are very strong words, especially when they have no basis, is, IMO, very damaging to the Christian message. Tell you what, rip all the verses I mentioned out of your Bible, since they are on the road to hell, and see how that works for you.

 

I want to defend the use of the Roman Road as a witnessing aid. It is a good, organized way to present the scriptures. It nails down the fact that one is a sinner, the penalty for sin, and how one comes into a right relationship with God.

The problem is how we apply Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. Paul says we must call on the name of the Lord, confess Him as Lord and believe that He rose from the dead.

So, what does it mean to do all that? What are the words we must say? It is clear that we must say something. So, what? How do we put into words the expression of our changed heart? And to whom do we say them? To God? To other people?

One answer, of course, is the use of what we call the Sinner's Prayer. We call on the Lord to save us. We ask him. And we declare him to be the Lord of our lives. What's wrong with that?

Here's the problem. It has been corrupted. And I confess that I have been part of the problem in the past. I was taught in soul-winning class to ask the lost person with whom I was dealing to pray and ask God to save him. To be real helpful, we were to tell them the very words to say.

By the way, that's where the phrase "One, two, three, repeat after me" comes from.

An instruction to pray to God for salvation degenerated into "say these magic words."

If this is the case, then the natural question is, what must the soul-winner do or say at that point. How does one ask for a response? A "decision," if you will?

Or, does one simply say, I've told you how to be saved. The ball is in your court. See 'ya.

By the way, I know people who have confessed Christ through the witness of the Roman Road and Sinner's Prayer, and they have exhibited true Christian faith in their lives. God is not boxed in, and can overcome what we lack as witnesses.

So, here's the question: How do YOU point men to Christ? What do you say to them? Do you ask for a "decision?." Do you "draw the net?"

 

Yes, I agree, parroting a "sinner's prayer" is even worse than the sales gimmick of singing a song and walking down the aisle as the pastor and music see who can make the most noise. Not wanting to go back to the Presbyterian way of ending a service, the best method, IMO, would be to invite folks to talk to a pastor or elder after the service. As one goes through Scripture with them, or the RR as some call it, to let the Lord do His job and save them. God does not need us to impart a magical chant to someone to help Him save them.

 

You've got that right. A local preacher here assures people that no matter what, if they've said the prayer they're in. They're also told they can live however they want because they're going to heaven, and Jesus has to save them because He cannot lie. Abuse of the Gospel and misuse of Romans 10:13.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

I agree with its bottom line.

I agree with all of that. Some take it too far and throw out all the Scripture part (Romans Road) only due to the abuse of getting people to repeat a prayer. 'Don't throw out the baby with the bath water'. Scripture needs to be preached, and no matter what it gets labeled it still needs to be preached as you've stated.

 

Great post Gina, :thumbs: It does not stop at conversion/baptism. I think a big problem, at least from what I've experienced is that we so minimize the impact of sin, that we fail to be real and honest with one another about our struggles, just put on a façade and keep going. This is a great disservice to new believers.

Also if Tom Butler reads this, I think it was you that shared a story about working in Romania (or some part of the former Soviet Union) and the pastor would make it clear to folks about what they would go through to follow Christ, if that was you, please recount that for us.

 

I have many East European friends from a Russian Language Church down the block. Pastor Yakov was taken from the Soviet Army & imprisoned for preaching Jesus to his fellow soldiers & they threatened his life many times so he came to the USA. he is a splendid man & he continues to speak the word. Only thing is, its 99% Russian so they are loosing the younger generation who wants to adhere to American standards.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::applause:

 

What's the name of that church? Where is it? Got a recording of him actually saying that?

 

No recording, but my family and I were there and he said it to me and the entire class. Several people in class openly disagreed with him and were appalled at his teaching. Some left the church over it.

 

It was in Romania. At the time we were there on a mission trip, the country was only about 8 years out of communism, and was still learning to do democracy.

The pastor of our host church in Sibiu (in Western Romania) told us that when they were under communism, they were never sure of their future. He related that when someone came to the church, wanting to confess Christ publicly, they would try to talk him out of it.

That is, they would explain the downside of a public confession of Christ as Lord. They told him that he could lose his family; he could lose his job; he could get beaten up; he could get thrown into jail; or he could be killed.

The pastor said then they asked the question: "Do you now still want to make a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ?" If he said yes, they believed that it was a valid profession by someone who understood that a "yes" answer could get him killed.

Even then, the new convert underwent a probationary period of at least one year before being admitted to full church membership privileges. He was taught, instructed in the faith. He was given no responsibility in the church. This was a learning and growing time. He was treated as a babe in Christ.

If, after one year, the new convert was still faithful, still learning, still growing, then they were sure that his confession was valid.

One other story: In Braila, a city of 350,000 in Southeast Romania, on the Danube River, there was one Baptist church. In 1989, when Ceaucescu was overthrown as dictator, and Communism fell, two of the deacons in that church disappeared. Turned out that they were Communists who had infiltrated the congregation, and were so convincing that the church had elected them deacons. They disappeared because they knew they were about to be found out.

Even today, around the world, being a Christian can cost you everything. Thank God for those who are willing to go, regardless of the cost. Like John of Japan. Bless you and your family, brother. You have our fervent gratitude.

 

That would be either a hyper cal, whose belief is that God saves his elect period, or else someone who does not know eternal security, as that belief of saved by grace, live as you want refuted in Romans and galatians!

 

He's an easy-believism preacher and none of the above.

 

Tom, thanks for sharing this again, I will try to bookmark it so I don't have to ask you again.

I tend to believe that in America we are soooo blessed it is actually a curse, we are so apathetic about what it means to really follow Christ, the folks in your story, the missionaries like JOJ that are on the front line, they get it. Yet we sit back and complain that its too hot/too cold, why didn't Sister Sue bring her pecan pie to the pot luck, etc., etc., etc. We recently had first time visitors to our church complain to someone about the trash cans that were close to one of the side entrances. Bless their poor hearts, they had to walk by a stinky trash can for a whole 15 seconds, they must have such a wonderful life. Regardless to say they will probably fit in well at that church, yet I'm sure they wouldn't cut it as a Christian in some 3rd world country. Its a reminder to me to examine myself!

 

This thread is probably about dead, but I'll throw in this little Spurgeon quote if there's anyone still lurking.